Is really base BoGs Goku weaker than Namek saga 100% Freeza?

[apex_pretador]

YES I know what Beerus has said in Dragonball Super, implying that Goku could have not defeated Freeza in his base form HOWEVER one can argue that, at least in the original BoGs movie, Goku was suppressing his base power while Beerus made that comment. Anyway in this thread I will mostly focus on the evidence in the original manga.

I agree with beerus, I'll point out your mistakes.

An attempt to support Beerus' comment…
Let's first try our best to support that base Goku at the start of the BoGs arc is still weaker than 100% final form Freeza of the Namek saga. Below I give the most favourable Android-saga power-scaling scenario for that argument. I make use of the “official” Super Saiyan multipliers (i.e. x50 for SSJ1, x2 for SSJ2 and x4 for SSJ3) and I denote the power level of base Goku when the Androids first appeared as Y. You may substitute Y equal to say 5million but don't pay too much attention to the exact numbers. What is the most important thing to consider is the order of magnitude of the relative differences.

OK.

Base Goku against Freeza=0.6Y
Base Goku (healthy)/Vegeta=Y (when the Androids appear)
SSJ1 Goku/Vegeta=50Y.
Android 17/18=75Y

I see this exaggerated. Androids are more like 20-30% stronger than SS1, nowhere close to 50%.

Piccolo (before fused with Kami)=0.75Y

lol, He is much stronger than base saiyans.

Piccolo (Kamiccolo)=75Y
Imperfect Cell (first appearance versus Piccolo) = 65Y
Android 16/Imperfect Cell (after absorbing thousands of humans)=90Y
Piccolo (post RoSaT)=100Y

lol again, he's much stronger than semi PC post rosat. He was standing in the fight vs Jrs, and humans & goku were KO'd.

Semi Perfect Cell=180Y
Base Vegeta (post RoSaT)=5Y
SSJ1 Vegeta (post RoSaT)= 250Y
Base Goku (post RoSaT)=8Y
SSJ1 Goku (post RoSaT)=400Y
Perfect Cell=550Y
Super Perfect Cell=700Y
SSJ2 Gohan=1200Y
Injured SSJ2 Gohan =600Y

PROBLEMS
Problem 1
Android 19 and 20 need to have a big power level difference amongst them while it is implied they are more or less comparable.

They are comparable.

Premises:
a) Piccolo (before fusing with Kami) needed to be weaker than base Goku – say 75% of base Goku. That because base Goku was ahead of Piccolo in the Freeza saga and he stayed ahead of him in the Android saga. There is no reason not to, given that he trained equally as hard.

???? Everything indicates that piccolo is comparable to super saiyans BEFORE his fusion. As for goku training as hard, it always happens that piccolo makes the biggest gains, ALWAYS.

b) Piccolo was stronger than Android 20 (Dr Gero). Say at least by 1.3-1.5x. If Piccolo was 75% of base Goku that would put Android 20 at 35-50% of Base Goku (0.35Y-0.5Y).

Again, it follows from incorrect assumption on piccolo. You are forgetting that Even super saiyan vegeta, who was atleast 50% of his power, couldn't do anything to gero while piccolo could one-shot him.

c) Goku turned SSJ1 against Android 19. Yes he dominated Android 19 similar to what he did as SSJ3 versus Fat Buu. Say 2x times stronger. Perhaps 5x at the very most. Same goes for SSJ1 Vegeta. That would put Android 19 at a power level of around 10Y-20Y. Besides if he was stronger than 50x then he wouldn't need to go SSJ1.

(d)Hence since Android 20 was 0.35-0.5Y and Android 19 is 10Y-20Y is a difference of around 20-60x.

That is a heck of a difference between 19 and 20! Gero acted like himself and 20 were pretty much equal.

Problem 2
After Imperfect Cell fired his Kamehameha against Piccolo he explained he had cells from Goku from 3 years earlier. Piccolo remarked that that’s why it was soooo weaker than expected as Goku grew way much stronger during their 3 years of training. How could he say that Goku grew much stronger if he raised his power level from 3.5 to 5 million and the reference frame of power levels in the Android saga is in the 100s? Cell was not a Super Saiyan neither did he have the equivalent golden aura when he fired that Kamehameha.

Problem 3
According to this power-scaling logic as you can see even post RoSaT Base Goku/Vegeta are required to be significantly weaker than Piccolo and Android 18. And we are talking about like 10-12x weaker (though as SSJ1 they were 4-5x stronger). Though this is fine in the Android saga, in the Buu arc the things get complicated…

(a) SSJ2 Goku and SSJ2 Majin Vegeta have SSJ2 Gohan against Cell as a reference point so at best they could have been like 2x stronger than Gohan in the Cell games. That means that their base although it increased by 3-4 times it is STILL 3-4 times weaker than the power level of Android 18 and Piccolo.

Much weaker than that. Actually, they had just surpassed cell games gohan, more like 20% stronger.

(b) Then how can Vegeta, Goku and Gohan be so confident they could take on Piccolo and 18 in the 25th TB even after agreeing NOT to go SSJ1?

Goku was confident on taking piccolo? when? Vegeta is cocky. He thought he could take frieza , PC, buu etc. and nothing could've done if he wanted to go SS vs piccolo and piccolo agreed. Gohan, well he got WEAKER than he was, so there is no chance he could take piccolo, no way.

(c) Goten and Trunks as Mighty Mask in their base against 18 hold their own. Yes, 18 was likely holding back a bit at that point but their difference didn't seem to be greater than it was between her and SSJ Vegeta in the Android saga. So Android 18 was likely 2x stronger than them in their base. Given that Goku and Vegeta were at least 3x stronger than their little sons it would mean that indeed Vegeta was 2x stronger than 18 in his base. Note that when Goten and Trunks turned SSJ1 against 18, Trunks fired a blast that Goten specifically urged him to not be full power as it would kill 18 - 18 was impressed– scared even when she saw it.

#18 was holding back to regular human level, or at max krillin+ level. She was impressed because she didn't know who was mighty mask. She didn't want to lose via killing opponent.
When kids turned SS, they were still at a disadvantage. There is no way Goten could know full power of #18, she can't be sensed and he was born after cell games. So he didn't know her full power. #18 wanted to end quick as she didn't want to risk lives by some weird blasts from kids.
Actually, she can be weaker than kids as SS & still be way stronger than base goku.

(d) Supreme Kai who thought nothing of Freeza was impressed by Goku’s and Vegeta’s performance in their base form against Babidi’s fighters. And don’t tell me he cannot sense power levels as he did sense Gohan’s power when he powered up to SSj2 gaaisnt Kibito. Kibito could sense the power too. Also isn't ironic given that Beerus who is immensely more power than any Kaio-shin held Freeza at higher value?

Supreme kai impressed means nothing. Frieza was impressed by base non kaioken goku.

Did Beerus have in mind that Freeza’s if trained could reach the power level he reached in the Resurrection of Freeza arc? Don't forget that Freeza’s final form (not the Golden) was comparable to Godly base Goku (Goku was likely 1.3-2x stronger, but not more than that) which is well beyond SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc.

No, if it was the case, beerus immediately would've killed frieza, or taken him with himself as a playmate.

(g) As an aside in the anime Gohan fought against Dabura (Dabra) in his base form for a while before turning SSJ2 and Dabra was implied to be as strong as the Supreme Kai. Also there are various anime fillers where base Goku went against opponents in his base that it wouldn’t make sense to not power up into SSJ. Like against Paikuhan a guy who could one-shot Cell. Also when Goku and Vegeta paired in the first round most of the Z fighters implied it was pretty much the real final coming early – along the lines that one position was emptied for the final or so. But anyway let’s don't consider anime fillers -which is ironic as we compare it against Dragonball Super which is 90% Toei but anyway.

Does not make any real sense to me. Vegeta being confident always gets explained away with the infamous "he was bluffing" as if that's the answer to everything and Lazuli having a very hard time with Trunks and Goten also is another point.

She didn't know who was she facing, she wouldn't risk prize money by kill in going all out. She wasn't losing even vs SS kids.


_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Aside from all this, we have kaioshin saying goku surpassed him when he became SS2.

[Speedster]

I'll point out your mistakes.

Well let me point out yours first...

I see this exaggerated. Androids are more like 20-30% stronger than SS1, nowhere close to 50%.

Pointless observation and it doesn't change anything. If anything it makes things worse as the increase of Piccolo due to him fusing with Kami would be diminished even more. Also a wrong one too as it is clear that there was a bigger gap between #17 & #18 and SSJ1 Vegeta than SSJ1 Goku Vs 100% Freeza on Namek (which is supposedly 25% difference).

Piccolo (before fused with Kami)=0.75Y

lol, He is much stronger than base saiyans.

How do you know he didn't use Kaio-ken against Gero? After all he says he increased his power level in bursts. He spent three years training with Goku after all.

lol again, he's much stronger than semi PC post rosat. He was standing in the fight vs Jrs, and humans & goku were KO'd.

Perhaps you might need to stop loling and read the manga instead. First if you are referring to the scene in the anime where Piccolo is fighting the Cell Jrs I have to tell you it is a filler scene. If you are going to use filler then Yamcha and Tenshinhan also held their own against Cell Jrs and with a combined strike they managed to get rid off one Cell Jr off Goku.

In the manga Cell outright states that only Vegeta and Trunks are holding their own and it was in a panel where everyone was shown fighting the Jrs including Piccolo. This means that Piccolo could not hold his own and besides up to that point the Cell Jrs were just toying with the Z fighters anyway. If they weren’t toying they would kill them as they were instructed by Cell to do later. Also besides that panel the only other panel in the manga where Piccolo is shown against the Jrs is the one where everyone turned in awe to see Gohan transforming into SSJ2.

Again, it follows from incorrect assumption on Piccolo. You are forgetting that even Super Saiyan Vegeta, who was at least 50% of his power, couldn't do anything to Gero while piccolo could one-shot him.

You mean SSJ1 Vegeta was 50% Piccolo? That is news to me! First off SSJ1 Vegeta could certainly beat Gero. Also don't forget that base Vegeta knocked #19 (a #19 with Goku’s Kamehameha energy absorbed) to free Goku. And as I said Piccolo could have just used Kaio-ken against #20. Also the main problem is the SSJ1 multiplier being too high and the base too low. If the base is higher and the SSJ1 multiplier smaller the difference between Piccolo and SSJ1 Goku/Vegeta would be smaller and the problem is essentially solved. I would also go as far to say that Kaiokenx10 or Kaiokenx20 are reduced to percentage boosts when it comes to such high power levels and SSJ1 is only a 4x or 5x multiplier. For example healthy base Goku/Vegeta are 50 million, SSJ1 is 250 million while Piccolo is 40 million and Piccolo Kaiokenx20 is 130 million.

I also never entrained the idea of 100% Freeza being 120 million to begin with. All we know is that 50% Freeza is equal to Kaio-kenx20 Goku. It is perfectly possible (and actually more logical too) that when Freeza first transformed into his fourth form was using 25% of his maximum (instead of just 2.5%). Then he doubled his power level to 50% and then from 50% to 100%. So his final form could just be 12 million. No wonder why Toriyama is baffled why the fans are suggesting a 50x multiplier for SSJ1. Apparently during the Namek arc he changed the scales and consequently how Kaioken worked. If it could really multiply your power level as in the Saiyan arc scale then Goku would have used it on top of SSJ1 to achieve a same power up as SSJ2 (which is only 2x multiplier according to the same guidebooks). We also do see Goku using it in the anime versus Pikkon and it seemed to be a mere boost so as far as the anime goes at least it is pretty clear where Kaioken stands Vs the SSJ transformations.

Vegeta is cocky. He thought he could take Freeza , PC, buu etc. and nothing could've done if he wanted to go SS vs piccolo and piccolo agreed. Gohan, well he got WEAKER than he was, so there is no chance he could take piccolo, no way.

Yet Dabura spat on Piccolo and converted him into a statue because he considered him to be a weakling while he allowed the base Saiyans – and surprised by how much energy SSJ1 Goku could generate in comparison to Yakkon. Also if you go by Super (the very anime where Beerus’ statement was made and which you try to defend) a slacked off base (non-mystic) Gohan was portrayed as stronger than Piccolo in their fight against Tagoma. And that Gohan was weaker than in the Cell games – he couldn’t even sustain SSJ1. And don't tell me that he was “mystic SSJ1” because that is complete bullshit.

#18 was holding back to regular human level, or at max krillin+ level. She was impressed because she didn't know who was mighty mask. She didn't want to lose via killing opponent. She didn't know who was she facing, she wouldn't risk prize money by kill in going all out. She wasn't losing even vs SS kids.

I explained in detail the entire fallacy with this argument in an earlier post.

Supreme kai impressed means nothing. Freeza was impressed by base non kaioken goku.

In your analogy Supreme Kai is Freeza and Freeza is Ginuy. Freeza is impressed by Goku because he was much stronger than Captain Ginyu. Similarly Supreme Kai even if he is strogner than base Goku is impressed by base Goku while mocking Freeza who he used as measure of reference for his own strength. This can only suggest that base Goku is stronger than Freeza in a similar fashion Goku was stronger than Ginyu back in the Namek arc. So yeah Supreme Kai being impressed by base Goku means A LOT.

No, if it was the case, beerus immediately would've killed Freeza, or taken him with himself as a playmate.

First off Beerus WAS planning to kill him. Besides we do see Beerus seeing Golden Freeza in RoF and despite Beerus still being a league above him he didn't bother to kill him or take him for a playmate.

[dragon boss z]

The only thing that contradicts Frieza>base saiyans is Vegeta saying he can win the tournament while in his base. Maybe he was just being cocky though.

[Lord Beerus]

The only thing that contradicts Freeza>base saiyans is Vegeta saying he can win the tournament while in his base. Maybe he was just being cocky though.

Well, Vegeta did become achieve the strength of a Saiyan Beyond God offscreen, so he kinda has the right to feel somewhat confident.

[Hitiro]

Pointless observation and it doesn't change anything. If anything it makes things worse as the increase of Piccolo due to him fusing with Kami would be diminished even more. Also a wrong one too as it is clear that there was a bigger gap between #17 & #18 and SSJ1 Vegeta than SSJ1 Goku Vs 100% Freeza on Namek (which is supposedly 25% difference).

There is nothing to say that the gap between 100% Freeza and SSJ Goku was 25% on Namek. Both of them were injured so that gap may have been smaller or larger. SSJ Goku's battle power in the Daizenshuu was based on a fresh Goku's battle power. But we know Goku wasn't fresh when he transformed.

In all other instances of around a 10%-30% gap it has been shown to be pretty unwinnable. KKx2 Goku vs. Vegeta, Cui vs Vegeta, Zarbon vs. Vegeta, Recoom vs Vegeta. And if you use SSJ Trunks vs Mecha Freeza then that is also the case. Because Goku was supposed to beat a powered up Freeza. Trunks is comparably less than Goku at this point going from how Goku managed to block Trunks' sword so easily while he hasn't gotten any stronger since the Namek fight. Goku tells us this as he said the only thing he could do there was learn the Yardratian teleport. Generally I go by the rule of thumb that if there is about a 25% difference then the battle isn't going to be winnable.

[Speedster]

Pointless observation and it doesn't change anything. If anything it makes things worse as the increase of Piccolo due to him fusing with Kami would be diminished even more. Also a wrong one too as it is clear that there was a bigger gap between #17 & #18 and SSJ1 Vegeta than SSJ1 Goku Vs 100% Freeza on Namek (which is supposedly 25% difference).

There is nothing to say that the gap between 100% Freeza and SSJ Goku was 25% on Namek. Both of them were injured so that gap may have been smaller or larger. SSJ Goku's battle power in the Daizenshuu was based on a fresh Goku's battle power. But we know Goku wasn't fresh when he transformed.

Neither was Freeza...who took head on a Genki Dama and everyone assumed he was defeated.

In all other instances of around a 10%-30% gap it has been shown to be pretty unwinnable. KKx2 Goku vs. Vegeta, Cui vs Vegeta, Zarbon vs. Vegeta, Recoom vs Vegeta. Generally I go by the rule of thumb that if there is about a 25% difference then the battle isn't going to be winnable

I don't disagree but Imperfect Cell before he absorbed thousands of humans was still considerably stronger than SSJ1 Vegeta as Piccolo was the only one from the Z fighters who could beat Cell at the time. So I gave a 20% difference between Imperfect Cell and SSJ1 Vegeta. Then Piccolo(without weights) is stronger than Imperfect Cell by say 25%. So in total it is 1.2*1.25=1.5x. Anyway I don't think the difference between #17 and SSJ1 Goku/Vegeta can be lower than 40%.

And if you use SSJ Trunks vs Mecha Freeza then that is also the case. Because Goku was supposed to beat a powered up Freeza. Trunks is comparably less than Goku at this point going from how Goku managed to block Trunks' sword so easily while he hasn't gotten any stronger since the Namek fight. Goku tells us this as he said the only thing he could do there was learn the Yardratian teleport.

That is incorrect. Goku says that he mastered how to go SSJ at will. So apparently he trained!

[mikey4111]

Base Goku could of beaten Yakon if he wanted to. And isn't Yakon stronger than Frieza since it's stated that all Surpeme Kai's are stronger than Frieza and Supreme Kai feared Yakon.

[apex_pretador]

I'll point out your mistakes.

Well let me point out yours first...

I see this exaggerated. Androids are more like 20-30% stronger than SS1, nowhere close to 50%.

Pointless observation and it doesn't change anything. If anything it makes things worse as the increase of Piccolo due to him fusing with Kami would be diminished even more. Also a wrong one too as it is clear that there was a bigger gap between #17 & #18 and SSJ1 Vegeta than SSJ1 Goku Vs 100% Freeza on Namek (which is supposedly 25% difference).

Piccolo (before fused with Kami)=0.75Y

lol, He is much stronger than base saiyans.

How do you know he didn't use Kaio-ken against Gero? After all he says he increased his power level in bursts. He spent three years training with Goku after all.

How do you know he used kaioken? there is nothing to indicate that.
Tenshinhan was amazed by sick goku, vegeta AND piccolo, and thought that now he can never surpass them. Piccolo was also not amazed by SS goku's performance vs #19, when tien said he's leagues above "us".
And if someone should be able to use KK, it must be Tien, he spent longest time at kaio.
Goku never teaches his techniques to anyone. KK , spirit bomb , IT etc.

The only baseless assumption is that piccolo is weaker than base saiyans, while he's comparable to super saiyans.

lol again, he's much stronger than semi PC post rosat. He was standing in the fight vs Jrs, and humans & goku were KO'd.

Perhaps you might need to stop loling and read the manga instead. First if you are referring to the scene in the anime where Piccolo is fighting the Cell Jrs I have to tell you it is a filler scene. If you are going to use filler then Yamcha and Tenshinhan also held their own against Cell Jrs and with a combined strike they managed to get rid off one Cell Jr off Goku.

http://www.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/409/13
http://comic.dragonballcn.com/list/0.Dr ... ujU9k.jpg
'
Humans -> KO'd cold
Goku -> KO'd, barely conscious
Piccolo -> conscious and hurt but standing
Vegeta / trunks -> fighting back

In the manga Cell outright states that only Vegeta and Trunks are holding their own and it was in a panel where everyone was shown fighting the Jrs including Piccolo. This means that Piccolo could not hold his own and besides up to that point the Cell Jrs were just toying with the Z fighters anyway. If they weren’t toying they would kill them as they were instructed by Cell to do later. Also besides that panel the only other panel in the manga where Piccolo is shown against the Jrs is the one where everyone turned in awe to see Gohan transforming into SSJ2.

see above

Again, it follows from incorrect assumption on Piccolo. You are forgetting that even Super Saiyan Vegeta, who was at least 50% of his power, couldn't do anything to Gero while piccolo could one-shot him.

You mean SSJ1 Vegeta was 50% Piccolo? That is news to me! First off SSJ1 Vegeta could certainly beat Gero.

Both vegeta and piccolo knew that vegeta couldn't beat gero. The same vegeta 1-shotted 19 POST ABSORPTION from vegeta. So, Gero >> #19 Post vegeta absorption.
Then even stronger gero was 2-shotted by piccolo. That alone proves he's superior to 50% vegeta.

Also don't forget that base Vegeta knocked #19 (a #19 with Goku’s Kamehameha energy absorbed) to free Goku. And as I said Piccolo could have just used Kaio-ken against #20. Also the main problem is the SSJ1 multiplier being too high and the base too low. If the base is higher and the SSJ1 multiplier smaller the difference between Piccolo and SSJ1 Goku/Vegeta would be smaller and the problem is essentially solved. I would also go as far to say that Kaiokenx10 or Kaiokenx20 are reduced to percentage boosts when it comes to such high power levels and SSJ1 is only a 4x or 5x multiplier. For example healthy base Goku/Vegeta are 50 million, SSJ1 is 250 million while Piccolo is 40 million and Piccolo Kaiokenx20 is 130 million.

My SS multiplier is x20 and it works perfectly well.
Knocking means nothing. Piccolo kicked 50% frieza away from goku, so does that mean he's superior to frieza?

I also never entrained the idea of 100% Freeza being 120 million to begin with. All we know is that 50% Freeza is equal to Kaio-kenx20 Goku. It is perfectly possible (and actually more logical too) that when Freeza first transformed into his fourth form was using 25% of his maximum (instead of just 2.5%). Then he doubled his power level to 50% and then from 50% to 100%. So his final form could just be 12 million. No wonder why Toriyama is baffled why the fans are suggesting a 50x multiplier for SSJ1. Apparently during the Namek arc he changed the scales and consequently how Kaioken worked. If it could really multiply your power level as in the Saiyan arc scale then Goku would have used it on top of SSJ1 to achieve a same power up as SSJ2 (which is only 2x multiplier according to the same guidebooks). We also do see Goku using it in the anime versus Paikuhan and it seemed to be a mere boost so as far as the anime goes at least it is pretty clear where Kaioken stands Vs the SSJ transformations.

This is not a point to discuss here. I suggest you to make another thread for this, and I'll solvethis issue.

Vegeta is cocky. He thought he could take Freeza , PC, buu etc. and nothing could've done if he wanted to go SS vs piccolo and piccolo agreed. Gohan, well he got WEAKER than he was, so there is no chance he could take piccolo, no way.

Yet Dabura spat on Piccolo and converted him into a statue because he considered him to be a weakling while he allowed the base Saiyans – and surprised by how much energy SSJ1 Goku could generate in comparison to Yakkon.

Dabura is idiot. He thought pui pui could take all saiyans, didn't he? He and babidi also thought the same energy can be equal to 50% of buu. He also can't sense ki, he needs devices to measure it so his statement is useless.

Also if you go by Super (the very anime where Beerus’ statement was made and which you try to defend) a slacked off base (non-mystic) Gohan was portrayed as stronger than Piccolo in their fight against Tagoma.

Another baseless assumption

And that Gohan was weaker than in the Cell games – he couldn’t even sustain SSJ1. And don't tell me that he was “mystic SSJ1” because that is complete bullshit.

And this gohan was weaker than goten-trunks? Or if he was even comparable to them, then why didn't kids fight when unfused? They can go SS.
You are forgetting that SS gohan was portrayed superior to SS gotenks, i.e. SS3 goku level.

#18 was holding back to regular human level, or at max krillin+ level. She was impressed because she didn't know who was mighty mask. She didn't want to lose via killing opponent. She didn't know who was she facing, she wouldn't risk prize money by kill in going all out. She wasn't losing even vs SS kids.

I explained in detail the entire fallacy with this argument in an earlier post.

Supreme kai impressed means nothing. Freeza was impressed by base non kaioken goku.

In your analogy Supreme Kai is Freeza and Freeza is Ginuy. Freeza is impressed by Goku because he was much stronger than Captain Ginyu. Similarly Supreme Kai even if he is strogner than base Goku is impressed by base Goku while mocking Freeza who he used as measure of reference for his own strength. This can only suggest that base Goku is stronger than Freeza in a similar fashion Goku was stronger than Ginyu back in the Namek arc. So yeah Supreme Kai being impressed by base Goku means A LOT.

The same supreme kai who sensed SS2 gohan. Either you want to say base goku > SS2 gohan, or your argument is a fallacy.

No, if it was the case, beerus immediately would've killed Freeza, or taken him with himself as a playmate.

First off Beerus WAS planning to kill him. Besides we do see Beerus seeing Golden Freeza in RoF and despite Beerus still being a league above him he didn't bother to kill him or take him for a playmate.

[/quote]
Beerus said he found frieza "Annoying"

[Hitiro]

Pointless observation and it doesn't change anything. If anything it makes things worse as the increase of Piccolo due to him fusing with Kami would be diminished even more. Also a wrong one too as it is clear that there was a bigger gap between #17 & #18 and SSJ1 Vegeta than SSJ1 Goku Vs 100% Freeza on Namek (which is supposedly 25% difference).

There is nothing to say that the gap between 100% Freeza and SSJ Goku was 25% on Namek. Both of them were injured so that gap may have been smaller or larger. SSJ Goku's battle power in the Daizenshuu was based on a fresh Goku's battle power. But we know Goku wasn't fresh when he transformed.

Neither was Freeza...who took head on a Genki Dama and everyone assumed he was defeated.

I pretty much said neither was freeza. "Both of them were injured"

In all other instances of around a 10%-30% gap it has been shown to be pretty unwinnable. KKx2 Goku vs. Vegeta, Cui vs Vegeta, Zarbon vs. Vegeta, Recoom vs Vegeta. Generally I go by the rule of thumb that if there is about a 25% difference then the battle isn't going to be winnable

I don't disagree but Imperfect Cell before he absorbed thousands of humans was still considerably stronger than SSJ1 Vegeta as Piccolo was the only one from the Z fighters who could beat Cell at the time. So I gave a 20% difference between Imperfect Cell and SSJ1 Vegeta. Then Piccolo(without weights) is stronger than Imperfect Cell by say 25%. So in total it is 1.2*1.25=1.5x. Anyway I don't think the difference between #17 and SSJ1 Goku/Vegeta can be lower than 40%.

Then that is fine.

And if you use SSJ Trunks vs Mecha Freeza then that is also the case. Because Goku was supposed to beat a powered up Freeza. Trunks is comparably less than Goku at this point going from how Goku managed to block Trunks' sword so easily while he hasn't gotten any stronger since the Namek fight. Goku tells us this as he said the only thing he could do there was learn the Yardratian teleport.

That is incorrect. Goku says that he mastered how to go SSJ at will. So apparently he trained!

Being able to go SSJ at will doesn't mean he had to train it. The only example we could possibly go by for him having to train it is when Gohan transforms but that was filler anyway. I mean Goku literally transforms at will on Namek anyway. He reverts while flying away and then transforms back into a SSJ. In fact in the anime Goku says to Gohan in the RoSaT that the form is difficult to maintain and eats up a lot of energy. The only part of that statement that exists in the manga is the energy consumption. I'm not even sure Goku's "At first it was difficult but now I can become one at will." line is actually in the manga. I don't have my manga on me right now to check.

[MisterGuyMan]

Beers' statement isn't conclusive or even reliable since Goku doesn't walk around fully powered. The only power level Beers was sensing was Goku's suppressed state. That's it. Everyone is talking about how it was never contradicted. We don't need that statement contradicted because it's still true. Supressed Goku is weaker that 100% Frieza. Anything else is adding to the context of the scene.

Now let's compare to the other evidence. Vegeta knows how powerful he is. He also knows how powerful Piccolo and 18 are or at the very least has to account for them in the tournament. Vegeta is arrogant but he can accept when he's outclassed.

Also keep in mind that Kaio Shin can one shot Frieza. Then the same guy wants to make a 4 man tag team with Himself, Vegeta, Goku and Gohan against first Pui Pui then Yakon even though the entire point was to prevent the Earthlings from sustaining damage. So judging from Kaio Shin's actions and observations, these opponents are at least a threat to a guy that can one shot Frieza and base Saiyans can hang with them easily.

Vegeta's claims are based on actual observed battle prowess. Beers' statements are based on nothing but suppressed power. Kaio Shin's statements are somewhere in the middle. So the stronger and more numerous evidence is siding with the base Saiyans being stronger.

[Hitiro]

Beers' statement isn't conclusive or even reliable since Goku doesn't walk around fully powered. The only power level Beers was sensing was Goku's suppressed state. That's it. Everyone is talking about how it was never contradicted. We don't need that statement contradicted because it's still true. Supressed Goku is weaker that 100% Freeza. Anything else is adding to the context of the scene.

Goku would have corrected him if it wasn't true for his 100% it is also usually the way of story telling to make things like this clear. The fact we get no contradiction or correction suggests even if Goku wasn't suppressed that he still wouldn't win in a fight against 100% Freeza. The author always makes their intent clear when presenting us with the story.

It's like I don't understand people saying SSJ3 Goku could beat Evil Boo when Goku says they would lose. There is no underline reason for this to not be true. The author is trying to show us that they can't win. Then when they make Evil Boo revert to Pure Boo we have Goku say "This way we can manage something." And somehow this gets twisted to have Pure Boo at an even higher power than Evil Boo because people think Goku and Vegeta have stopped sensing now and are basing how manageable he is on size.

These things should only ever be refuted if they are contradicted later like, for example, when Goku said he could beat Fat Boo. The author would never make some convoluted answer to something while saying another thing just for people to theory craft. Unless it was some murder mystery novel/manga which it is not.

And as I pointed out in the previous pages. The Genki Dama would not be able to challenge Boo if Goku's base was that high.

[MisterGuyMan]

We don't need a contraction. The statement is purely comparing suppressed Goku to Final Form Frieza. That's it. Using your same logic bass Vegeta is painted to be incredibly strong from the perspective of Kaio Shin whereas Frieza is painted as weak. The difference is that Kaio Shin is more conclusive since Beers only sees suppressed Goku.

Vegeta and Goku were only talking about size. We don't know enough about the Genki Dama to argue what it would or wouldn't have done to Buu. Goku doesn't need to correct Beers. None of those points changes that Goku was suppressed.

[LightBing]

I think Base Saiyans were weaker than Freeza until BoG. It's clear to me. Here's why, chronologically:

The first possible contradiction is Vegeta confidence, when he was told he couldn't go Super Saiyan during the tournament.

Here's the line:
Chapter: 430 (DBZ 236), P6.5-6
Context: after Gohan asks that nobody becomes a Super Saiyan in the tournament
Vegeta: “…Well, I guess that’s fine. If nobody becomes a Super Saiyan, then the conditions are the same. My superior position doesn’t change…”

Piccolo, #18, Kuririn and whoever aren't part of the equation because they can't turn SSJ. The sentence is quite clear. His superiority is only regarding Saiyans, he isn't even thinking about anybody else.

The second possible contradiction is the kids fight against #18.

The kids didn't even touch #18 before turning SSJ. They had a short exchange, with the Android always having the upper hand. Before they decided they had to go SSJ to win. If one argues: "Then why didn't she finish them immediately?", I can say:"Why didn't they do the same? At no point did the kids had any advantage while in their bases.

The third possible contradiction is Dabra and Babidi's assessment of the strength of the group.

As show in the following quotes, after making the initial assessment that Goku, Gohan and Vegeta are stronger than Piccolo. They are proven wrong. Their opinions become unreliable, why should we trust them? I can't prove Pocus is stronger than Piccolo but I can prove Babidi and Dabra can't determine power correctly.

Chapter: 447 (DBZ 253), P11.1-3
Context: talking about how Yamu and Spopovitch were followed by Goku and co.
Dabra: “Seems they’re trying to hide from us…In total…there are 7. We can’t use Kaioshin and Kibito’s energy…But 3 of them seem to have marvelous energy…”
Babidi: “Looks like it. It seems that we’ll get more than enough energy from just those 3…Kuhihihi…To think that we’d be able to revive Majin Boo so quickly…”

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P3.1
Context: talking about taking energy from Goku and co.
Babidi: “Hehhehheh…That’s why I summoned them here. I wonder if Pui-Pui’s finished all 3 off by now? ”

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P14.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Bobiddi: “Wh-Why are there people with that kind of power on Earth…?!!”
Dabra: "When I had [the Earth] investigated about 300 years ago there wasn’t anyone like this…”

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P1.4-6
Context: after Babidi says to send Yakon to Stage 2
Dabra: “Yakon!? You’re already going to use Yakon on Stage 2!?”
Babidi: “…We probably shouldn’t underestimate those Earthlings…They did Pui-Pui in before he could inflict any damage at all…”
Dabra: “…I see. But with Yakon as their opponent, they’ll all be defeated instantly. I won’t get to have any fun.”

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P8.5
Dabra: “Hahhahha. Even without moving them to the Dark Planet, Yakon will be more than enough to defeat them…”

Chapter: 459 (DBZ 265), P2.2-3
Badidi: “How about it, Dabra? Just to be sure, do you have confidence that you can defeat that Earthling [Gohan]?”
Dabra: “Naturally. I fought him a little bit before, after all. There’s no doubt that I can take care of trash like that.”

The fourth possible contradiction is Kaioshin judgment during the fight in Babidi's spaceship.

His assessment is wrong. He admits it as you can see by the third quote. He starts his path of self-doubt with the first quote. The moment he enters into contact with Babidi, he loses all credibility and gives in to fear. That's why he suggests ganging up on Yakon or why he is fearful of Vegeta's chances against Pocus. The actions of the Saiyans prove him wrong and he admits it!

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”

Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.5
Context: after Vegeta and Goku talk about Dabra not being that great
Kaioshin: “Un-unbelievable. Is this ‘Super Saiyan’ thing really this great?...Come to think of it, it was quite hard to stop Son Gohan from moving after he became a Super Saiyan…And even that might not have been his full power…”

Chapter: 452 (DBZ 258), P1.4-5
Context: after Goku kills Yakon
Kaioshin: “S-so that’s why these 3 have such composure...In a pinch, they can put forth tremendous power, like Son Goku displayed momentarily…Wh…what a completely unbelievable fact…that I, Kaioshin, should be thrown into a panic by humans of the lower world…”

Beerus statement isn't a contradiction, it just says directly what I've been supporting till now. Compared with Kaioshin's and Dabra, Beerus Ki sensing abilities are never disputed. Nobody said he made a mistake; not even Goku.

[Hitiro]

We don't need a contraction. The statement is purely comparing suppressed Goku to Final Form Freeza. That's it. Using your same logic bass Vegeta is painted to be incredibly strong from the perspective of Kaio Shin whereas Freeza is painted as weak. The difference is that Kaio Shin is more conclusive since Beers only sees suppressed Goku.

Vegeta and Goku were only talking about size. We don't know enough about the Genki Dama to argue what it would or wouldn't have done to Buu. Goku doesn't need to correct Beers. None of those points changes that Goku was suppressed.

Using my logic Base Vegeta is painted as incredibly strong for being in his base form. The Kaioshin already knew about their SSJ transformations. He knew that they were strong in their SSJ forms. He was just surprised by how strong Base Vegeta was. I mean if you're going to use this as an argument then both Goku and Vegeta were shocked at Kaioshin being stronger than Freeza. So that would make both Base Goku and Base Vegeta weaker than Freeza, right? Otherwise there is no reason for them to be shocked if they could body Freeza without transforming.

And no, Vegeta and Goku were not talking about size. Because Goku explains "We did it!" We did what exactly? Only a few moments ago Goku was trying up with a plan to weaken Pure Boo. So what did they do? They weakened Boo. Why would both Goku and Vegeta be on about size here? Vegeta definitely was on about size. But Goku did not want to make Boo shorter. He wanted to make him weaker. And this is why he says "We did it!" Goku and Vegeta were also sensing his power up until this point so why did they all of a sudden stop sensing Ki and just purely base it on looks? And yes, we do know enough about the Genki Dama. The Genki Dama is formed from the Genki portion of peoples Ki. We may not know how much this Genki portion makes up of peoples Ki but even if we assume the average battle power of 5 across a 6 billion to 8 billion sized population and assume that Genki made up 100% of Ki, thus 5 battle power. That would only put the battle power of the Genki Dama from the Earthlings at 40 billion. Goku would reach that with a base of 100 million. So weaker than Freeza. But we know that the Genki portion doesn't make up 100% of a persons Ki. A great deal of Earth is also wasteland and jungle too. So the population is probably not 8 billion.

And yes. Goku does need to correct Beerus. Otherwise it is bad story telling. The author has always made an effort to get his point across. If Goku was suppressed we would have been told in some way. If Goku wasn't weaker than Freeza with his base form we would have been told some how. There is literally no point for this line otherwise. Authors don't just throw lines into a story just because. The line has a meaning. Just like Kaioshin says all the Kaioshin could have defeated Freeza. This line wasn't added randomly just because. It had a clear intent. To establish the Kaioshin could have all beaten Freeza back in the day.

[buutenks]

beerus says goku cant beat freeza in his base,goku says nothing.So i dont see whats the problem?Why the bazilion number of pages?

And yes,cell says only vegeta and trunks r holding their own vs cell jr,however piccolo is shown standing vs the cell jr while goku,krillin,tien and yamcha r lying on the ground beaten.So piccolo managed to hold his own vs the cell jrs enough to not get knocked down atleast,so hes definitely in cell jr PL range.

[MisterGuyMan]

Piccolo, #18, Kuririn and whoever aren't part of the equation because they can't turn SSJ. The sentence is quite clear. His superiority is only regarding Saiyans, he isn't even thinking about anybody else.

If he can't turn SS and 18 and Piccolo are now stronger than him, then naturally that means Vegeta's believed superiority changes. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. With SS he's superior. Then without it he's not superior anymore but his superior position doesn't change. Then you have to possibility that he'll meet Piccolo or 18 before he meets any Saiyan. Finally when he first joins the tournament he says that EVERYONE has to be ready for him because he's gotten really strong. It honeslty makes no sense to ignore that the SS ban applies to the entire tourament.

Using my logic Base Vegeta is painted as incredibly strong for being in his base form. The Kaioshin already knew about their SSJ transformations. He knew that they were strong in their SSJ forms. He was just surprised by how strong Base Vegeta was. I mean if you're going to use this as an argument then both Goku and Vegeta were shocked at Kaioshin being stronger than Freeza. So that would make both Base Goku and Base Vegeta weaker than Freeza, right? Otherwise there is no reason for them to be shocked if they could body Freeza without transforming.

And yet Base Vegeta was still strong enough to completely manhandle an opponent that Kaio Shin wanted help against. Kaio Shin says he can one shot Frieza with a blast. Then he says he wants to tagteam Pui Pui and Yakon. Base Saiyans easily do what a guy that can one shot Frieza wants help against. This is even more obvious when you realize that if they're Frieza level then Kaio Shin can blow them up with a single blast and having the Saiyans fight at all risks waking up Buu.

And no, Vegeta and Goku were not talking about size. Because Goku explains "We did it!" We did what exactly? Only a few moments ago Goku was trying up with a plan to weaken Pure Boo. So what did they do? They weakened Boo. Why would both Goku and Vegeta be on about size here? Vegeta definitely was on about size. But Goku did not want to make Boo shorter. He wanted to make him weaker. And this is why he says "We did it!" Goku and Vegeta were also sensing his power up until this point so why did they all of a sudden stop sensing Ki and just purely base it on looks? And yes, we do know enough about the Genki Dama. The Genki Dama is formed from the Genki portion of peoples Ki. We may not know how much this Genki portion makes up of peoples Ki but even if we assume the average battle power of 5 across a 6 billion to 8 billion sized population and assume that Genki made up 100% of Ki, thus 5 battle power. That would only put the battle power of the Genki Dama from the Earthlings at 40 billion. Goku would reach that with a base of 100 million. So weaker than Freeza. But we know that the Genki portion doesn't make up 100% of a persons Ki. A great deal of Earth is also wasteland and jungle too. So the population is probably not 8 billion.

It was about size:
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.
Goku just freed the kids and Piccolo. I'm sure that constitutes as accomplishing one of his goals that he can say "We did it!"

The Genki Dama by its nature, might also be inherently strong against an evil being like Buu. Furthermore, you're ignoring how King Kai sent a message throughout the universe and Namek and the people in the afterlife mention that they donated their energy too. Then you have other strong fighters like Gohan and company donating too. Then there's the fact that it can draw power from things like the Sun. Here's a screencap from the intro monologue from DB Super:

The Genki Dama is stated to have gathered energy from the universe. In short, we know far too little to actually use it as a useful ceiling for Buu.

And yes. Goku does need to correct Beerus. Otherwise it is bad story telling. The author has always made an effort to get his point across. If Goku was suppressed we would have been told in some way. If Goku wasn't weaker than Freeza with his base form we would have been told some how. There is literally no point for this line otherwise. Authors don't just throw lines into a story just because. The line has a meaning. Just like Kaioshin says all the Kaioshin could have defeated Freeza. This line wasn't added randomly just because. It had a clear intent. To establish the Kaioshin could have all beaten Freeza back in the day.

Absence of Evidence is not evidence of absence. The evidence here is Beers' statement. Beers statement only applies to a suppressed Goku. That's all the evidence we can use. You're saying we can't just throw away lines, right? Well how many lines from the source material explain repeatedly that Z fighters hide their power and suppress it in their day to day life? Those lines have a meaning. We can't throw those lines out. The author inserted those lines to tell us something. So naturally they count now too since they exist within the story itself.

[Darkprince410]

Vegeta and Goku were only talking about size. We don't know enough about the Genki Dama to argue what it would or wouldn't have done to Buu. Goku doesn't need to correct Beers. None of those points changes that Goku was suppressed.

Only Vegeta's comment can be attributed to his size. Not only would it be out of character for Goku to judge someone based on their physical appearance (if he can sense their ki), but his comment directly ties into what he commented on earlier when he and Vegeta were inside Buu, an earlier comment regarding Buu's strength and ki level.

[LightBing]

If he can't turn SS and 18 and Piccolo are now stronger than him, then naturally that means Vegeta's believed superiority changes. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise. With SS he's superior. Then without it he's not superior anymore but his superior position doesn't change. Then you have to possibility that he'll meet Piccolo or 18 before he meets any Saiyan. Finally when he first joins the tournament he says that EVERYONE has to be ready for him because he's gotten really strong. It honeslty makes no sense to ignore that the SS ban applies to the entire tourament.

The sentence doesn't include non-Saiyans. Doesn't matter if he might encounter #18 or Piccolo. The sentence is clear. even if nobody turns SSJ, he's still superior because everybody's on equal footing. That only refers to Saiyans, they're the only ones that can be included. Seriously, look at the question and look at the answer. It makes no sense that you choose to modify the actual meaning of the sentence to fit your agenda. Could you please also, show me the exact quote were Vegeta says "everyone should be ready for him".

[Desassina]

Vegeta and Goku were only talking about size. We don't know enough about the Genki Dama to argue what it would or wouldn't have done to Buu. Goku doesn't need to correct Beers. None of those points changes that Goku was suppressed.

Only Vegeta's comment can be attributed to his size. Not only would it be out of character for Goku to judge someone based on their physical appearance (if he can sense their ki), but his comment directly ties into what he commented on earlier when he and Vegeta were inside Buu, an earlier comment regarding Buu's strength and ki level.

Except that Goku did, when he said that Buu turned into that awfully bulky guy, before following through Vegeta's comment on Buu's transformation, which for Vegeta was about size.

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P1.3
Context: evil Boo continues to revert to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “…H-hey…He’s changed into an awfully bulky guy…”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”

[Hitiro]

And yet Base Vegeta was still strong enough to completely manhandle an opponent that Kaio Shin wanted help against. Kaio Shin says he can one shot Freeza with a blast. Then he says he wants to tagteam Pui Pui and Yakon. Base Saiyans easily do what a guy that can one shot Freeza wants help against. This is even more obvious when you realize that if they're Freeza level then Kaio Shin can blow them up with a single blast and having the Saiyans fight at all risks waking up Buu.

No, the Kaioshin said they should fight him together. This doesn't mean that the Kaioshin wanted help against Pui-Pui. The Kaioshin demonstrated time and again that he overestimated and underestimated people during this arc. Pui-Pui should be no exception. All this proves is that he thought Pui-Pui was something worse than he was. It's not uncommon given in this arc Trunks also mistakenly thought at one point Mr. Satan may be strong and just holding back. Trunks was going purely off of reputation at this point which is why he questioned if he was actually strong. If Mr. Satan didn't have the reputation as champ then Trunks would have just assumed he was weak.

Chapter: 436 (DBZ 242), P4.2
Trunks: “So this old guy’s the world champion?...I wonder if he’s stronger than dad? I don’t think he looks like it at all though…”

Chapter: 436 (DBZ 242), P8.1
Context: after Mister Satan’s display of strength
Trunks: “Wh-what was that just now?...That wasn’t incredible at all…He must be trying to look pathetic on purpose…I see…That’s gotta be it. He’s the world champion, after all.”

It was about size:
Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

Again, only Vegeta is referencing size here. Goku says "We did it!" in regard to something they were trying to achieve. They were certainly not trying to achieve making him shorter.

Goku just freed the kids and Piccolo. I'm sure that constitutes as accomplishing one of his goals that he can say "We did it!"

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Except Goku's goal was to decrease Boo's Ki. Goku says this "We did it!" Only after he reverts to Pure Boo. He had all the time in the world to say "We did it!" when they escaped Boo. Why is he randomly saying "We did it!" after Boo changed if it was about freeing the others? Furthermore he continued by saying "This way, we might be able to manage something." This clearly points to their goal of making Boo a more manageable foe. This is just a straw man argument really. It holds no basis. And contains no flow with the story if it were what you suggesting.

The Genki Dama by its nature, might also be inherently strong against an evil being like Buu. Furthermore, you're ignoring how King Kai sent a message throughout the universe and Namek and the people in the afterlife mention that they donated their energy too.

This is incorrect. As Kaio only sent the message to Earth. He asks Vegeta if he wants to send it to everyone in the universe to which Vegeta replies no. Yes, the Namekians and Enma Daio and his men do contribute but these two groups were specifically watching Goku anyway. Even with the energy from the Namekians and Enma Daio's group that doesn't make much of a difference. The Namekian's battle powers averaged out at 1,000 at best and there were only 100 of them 7 years ago. The population would not have increased that much in 7 years.

Then you have other strong fighters like Gohan and company donating too. Then there's the fact that it can draw power from things like the Sun. Here's a screencap from the intro monologue from DB Super:
The Genki Dama is stated to have gathered energy from the universe. In short, we know far too little to actually use it as a useful ceiling for Buu.

Considering the Manga says otherwise and I have a sub saying that it was just the people of Earth and "beyond" that provided energy to the Super Genki Dama. Then this screencap means nothing. I would rather believe the manga plus the other sub as the other sub is more likely correct. Also Goku already stated that the energy from Gohan and the others wasn't even near enough to defeat Boo. The largest contribution game from the people of Earth which just goes to show how little a portion Genki makes up from Ki. Otherwise Gohan and the others should have had more than enough Genki to defeat Boo by themselves.

Spoiler:

Chapter: 515 (DBZ 321), P1.1
Context: after Gohan and co. contribute their genki to the Genki-Dama
Goku: “Hey, even this probably isn’t enough to wipe out Boo! What are they doing?! Hardly anyone but our friends is sending us ki!”

Absence of Evidence is not evidence of absence. The evidence here is Beers' statement. Beers statement only applies to a suppressed Goku. That's all the evidence we can use. You're saying we can't just throw away lines, right? Well how many lines from the source material explain repeatedly that Z fighters hide their power and suppress it in their day to day life? Those lines have a meaning. We can't throw those lines out. The author inserted those lines to tell us something. So naturally they count now too since they exist within the story itself.

I can say the same thing to you. Absence of Evidence. All we get here is Beerus saying Goku couldn't win. Prove that he was suppressed? Occam's razor my friend. The theory that makes the least assumptions is usually the correct one. You are making one more assumption than I am. And you're right that I'm saying we can't throw away lines. But every time a character's strength is stated we're told if they are suppressing or not in some way shape or fashion. Yet in this instance we are never told Goku is. Goku never retorts by saying this isn't his full strength either. Which is unlike Goku. Look at all throughout the manga. If you're going to say we can't throw lines out. Then you can't throw out the fact that these things are stated every time unless they aren't the case. In fact, a prime example is here:

Chapter: 285 (DBZ 91), P1.2-3, P2.2
Context: as Goku continues to use the Kaio-ken
Ginyu: "Twe... 120,000... 130,000... 140,000... It's sti... sti... still rising... !!!! It... it can't be... 160,000... "Eigh... 180,000...?! Un…unbelievable…Th-this is your true power…?!!”

Chapter: 285 (DBZ 91), P3.2
Goku: “I’ll tell you right up front! The power I’m capable of putting out temporarily is far, far greater than this.”

Ginyu says this is Goku's true power. But the author clarifies by saying that Goku is capable of much more than this. These points always get clarified. And characters always mention if they're holding back or not. Even in BoG Goku makes a point that he isn't fighting at full power. Only using 80% Beerus also says he isn't giving it his all. If Goku can defeat Freeza in base or he was suppressed at this moment in time then this is the first time the story has avoided giving us the information for clarification.