Super is not so bad like someone says

[Danfun64]

Krillin was able to master it in a what if? video game saga. Granted, a non canon video game doesn't have the same level of authenticity as the manga or even the anime, but still...

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

What was criticized outside of things that are done well, will still be bad when you look at them again. The quality of Super really just changes depending on who's directing what scene and who's writing the episodes. A few good cherry-picked scenes or subjective, self-fulfillment in how we interpret a character's actions here and there; won't add up to level out the majority of bad episodes that came before it if using them alone to represent it. Just my opinion. I can admit what scenes were done acceptably well and interesting in itself and credit them individually but thats within my subjective enjoyment, not a credit the series as a whole.

[DragonHermit]

My ratings so far:

Saiyan Arc 10/10
Namek Arc 10/10
Android Arc 10/10
Cell Arc 8.5/10
Majin Vegeta Arc 9/10
Buu Arc 7.5/10

Beerus Arc 7.5/10
RoF Arc 6/10
U6 Arc 8/10

Black Star Saga 5/10
Baby Arc 8/10
S17 Arc 7/10
Shadow Dragon Arc 8/10

[TekTheNinja]

My ratings so far:

Saiyan Arc 10/10
Namek Arc 10/10
Android Arc 10/10
Cell Arc 8.5/10
Majin Vegeta Arc 9/10
Buu Arc 7.5/10

Beerus Arc 7.5/10
RoF Arc 6/10
U6 Arc 8/10

Black Star Saga 5/10
Baby Arc 8/10
S17 Arc 7/10
Shadow Dragon Arc 8/10

What about the original Dragon Ball arcs? You included GT but not those.

Oh and personally I'd rate the resurrection arc even lower. Like a 1 or 2. It was absolutely atrocious. Only thing I liked about it is that it made me appreciate the movie version more, as I didn't really like the movie that much when I first saw it and thought they'd never surpass BoG. So far for me they still haven't though.

[DragonHermit]

DB was too radically of a different show to compare to the other 3. It has a different set of standards to judge it by.

I can't really compare Goku checking Bulma's underwear to see if she has testicles to Trunks seeing all his friends and family killed in the future.

[TekTheNinja]

DB was too radically of a different show to compare to the other 3. It has a different set of standards to judge it by.

I can't really compare Goku checking Bulma's underwear to see if she has testicles to Trunks seeing all his friends and family killed in the future.

I dunno man. I think you're overstating it. Dragon Ball was always pretty freakin' real. A man being killed by a dude's tongue, legs being broken, deaths, etc... I mean it's not like DBZ wasn't also a fairly comedic series. Sure there was a tone change, but Dragon Ball is Dragon Ball. It didn't change THAT much.

[DragonHermit]

Oh and personally I'd rate the resurrection arc even lower. Like a 1 or 2. It was absolutely atrocious. Only thing I liked about it is that it made me appreciate the movie version more, as I didn't really like the movie that much when I first saw it and thought they'd never surpass BoG. So far for me they still haven't though.

I'd give Goku vs. Freeza like a 2/10, but there was a lot of good stuff in the arc. A lot of funny moments like Goku breaking through a wall when he finds out Vegeta is with Whis, Goku punching Krillin, Beerus chasing those two after they eat his pizza, Gotenks headbutting Tagoma in the nutsack.

And Vegeta vs. Frieza fight was amongst my top 10 fight choreographies in DB of all time.

I dunno man. I think you're overstating it. Dragon Ball was always pretty freakin' real. A man being killed by a dude's tongue, legs being broken, deaths, etc... I mean it's not like DBZ wasn't also a fairly comedic series. Sure there was a tone change, but Dragon Ball is Dragon Ball. It didn't change THAT much.

DB, especially the first half, is too lighthearted to compare to those other series. I think before Toriyama had the idea of Goku coming from space, and him being just an earthling with a tail, the series was very different. (I still enjoyed it a lot, don't get me wrong.)

[Kuririn Fan]

DB was too radically of a different show to compare to the other 3. It has a different set of standards to judge it by.

I can't really compare Goku checking Bulma's underwear to see if she has testicles to Trunks seeing all his friends and family killed in the future.

Only first arc was like that, because Toriyama is a gag manga artist and he just finished Dr Slump. But everything was different with the tournament and onwards.

[TekTheNinja]

DB was too radically of a different show to compare to the other 3. It has a different set of standards to judge it by.

I can't really compare Goku checking Bulma's underwear to see if she has testicles to Trunks seeing all his friends and family killed in the future.

Only first arc was like that, because Toriyama is a gag manga artist and he just finished Dr Slump. But everything was different with the tournament and onwards.

Exactly. The first arc was purely just fun comedy and establishing characters, and after that it got pretty freakin' real.

[Lord Beerus]

DB was too radically of a different show to compare to the other 3. It has a different set of standards to judge it by.

I can't really compare Goku checking Bulma's underwear to see if she has testicles to Trunks seeing all his friends and family killed in the future.

Only first arc was like that, because Toriyama is a gag manga artist and he just finished Dr Slump. But everything was different with the tournament and onwards.

Exactly. The first arc was purely just fun comedy and establishing characters, and after that it got pretty freakin' real.

I'd say the death of Bora is when the tonal shifts in Dragon Ball really started to take place and more drama was added in the story.

[Draconic]

Black shooting Red in the head is darker than anything in Z. Cutting people in half or piercing them with magic blasts is sureal and fun. Getting a bullet trough the head is something very real. Add to that the fact that the scene is not done in a comedic way and it's played very straight.

[Kuririn Fan]

I'd say the death of Bora is when the tonal shifts in Dragon Ball really started to take place and more drama was added in the story.

Yes, but i mean fighting that DB/Z is known for was primary focus of 21st TB and onward. First arc is so much different than any other.

[TekTheNinja]

Whoops... I kinda derailed the topic.

Anyway, I do think the whole RoF arc is garbage. The Frieza fight was hideous, the minion fights might as well not have been there, and the character moments were just average at best. No reason to watch it over the movie.

[TheDBZmaster100]

ROF arc was simply just awful, both narratively and conceptually. Easily the worst ARC in this series.

[ekrolo2]

The show simply needs to put someone in charge who's taken a good hard look at what the previous series did well, what they screwed up and avoid those same pitfalls again. Some will say new characters replacing existing ones who can fulfil the same function, characters acting a certain way when previous events should've made them stop is part of the series DNA but here's the thing: that doesn't make it automatically good.

And for a franchise as old as this, I really do find it completely baffling that there isn't any half-way creative voice with some level of competence saying "Uhm.... You guys did these exact same mistakes with GT.... Can we like.... NOT repeat them again?".

I don't know, I just get the feeling people have this weird double standard with Dragon Ball where anything that's been a long-term part of its so-called DNA is automatically good and doesn't need fixing.

Maybe this is a consequence of Toriyama coming back but I really do think that if they got some competent fresh blood onto the writing side, we'd see a marked improvement in overall story-telling quality. At the very least we'd get back to the GT level where we're getting interesting ideas, Super doesn't even really have that. It's GT if there wasn't even an iota of an interesting concept to be seen to help balance out lackluster execution.

[Lord Beerus]

ROF arc was simply just awful, both narratively and conceptually. Easily the worst ARC in this series.

Agreed. That arc was total bollocks. I just pretend that arc never happened.

At the very least we'd get back to the GT level where we're getting interesting ideas, Super doesn't even really have that. It's GT if there wasn't even an iota of an interesting concept to be seen to help balance out lackluster execution.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. GT was very guilty rehashing old ideas and even then they couldn't pull them off properly. The only idea I really found interesting in GT was the Shadow Dragons and they still managed to fuck that up. Super, while a bit uneventful at the beginning, to it's credits, it has brought a lot of interesting concepts to the table such as multiple universes, a galactic king, God's of Destructions, literal omniscient beings and an expansion on the lore of the Dragon Balls that doesn't feel as out of place as it did in GT. If the future episode title spoilers of the show are any indication, they're gonna start exploring the other universes. I've never felt this hyped for GT as I have been for Super. If Super does drop the ball with these concepts, then it's on them, but let's just wait and see how thing pan out.

[pacz360]

ROF arc was simply just awful, both narratively and conceptually. Easily the worst ARC in this series.

Agreed. That arc was total bollocks. I just pretend that arc never happened.

At the very least we'd get back to the GT level where we're getting interesting ideas, Super doesn't even really have that. It's GT if there wasn't even an iota of an interesting concept to be seen to help balance out lackluster execution.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. GT was very guilty rehashing old ideas and even then they couldn't pull them off properly. The only idea I really found interesting in GT was the Shadow Dragons and they still managed to fuck that up. Super, while a bit uneventful at the beginning, to it's credits, it has brought a lot of interesting concepts to the table such as multiple universes, a galactic king, God's of Destructions, literal omniscient beings and an expansion on the lore of the Dragon Balls that doesn't feel as out of place as it did in GT. If the future episode title spoilers of the show are any indication, they're gonna start exploring the other universes. I've never felt this hyped for GT as I have been for Super. If Super does drop the ball with these concepts, then it's on them, but let's just wait and see how thing pan out.

While you may have point however can't hold my breath for it champa arc could've been a good oppurtunity for guys like buu and piccolo to do something instead of watching like everybody else champa arc it could better instead it being goku and vegeta show.

[pacz360]

The show simply needs to put someone in charge who's taken a good hard look at what the previous series did well, what they screwed up and avoid those same pitfalls again. Some will say new characters replacing existing ones who can fulfil the same function, characters acting a certain way when previous events should've made them stop is part of the series DNA but here's the thing: that doesn't make it automatically good.

And for a franchise as old as this, I really do find it completely baffling that there isn't any half-way creative voice with some level of competence saying "Uhm.... You guys did these exact same mistakes with GT.... Can we like.... NOT repeat them again?".

I don't know, I just get the feeling people have this weird double standard with Dragon Ball where anything that's been a long-term part of its so-called DNA is automatically good and doesn't need fixing.

Maybe this is a consequence of Toriyama coming back but I really do think that if they got some competent fresh blood onto the writing side, we'd see a marked improvement in overall story-telling quality. At the very least we'd get back to the GT level where we're getting interesting ideas, Super doesn't even really have that. It's GT if there wasn't even an iota of an interesting concept to be seen to help balance out lackluster execution.

Tbh it like the wwe with db instead fixing the mistake in the past we'll continue it in the future.

[TheMikado]

^ I wasn't a fan of BoG sense I felt like making Goku God Tier was was too fanboyish wet dream, but I was happy with it being temporary and looked forward to what came after it. Then RoF happened and I was pissed as hell about it. Then Super happened and I like yeah, but rehashed the movies and I was once again disappointed. There are great concepts but I feel like we never get any details on any of it. Beerus and Whis have twins, and Whis trained him so it looks like not only is there a process to it but you aren't born a God and it would seem whatever races they are would have history of their own. We also got the introduction of the mulitply universes and more Saiyan lore which was the entire start of the series with SSG. We get a Saiyan race that evolved differently and doesn't know about transformations and even has their original home world but also the same fighting style. The first thing they do is make the one Saiyan from that universe turn SSJ an hour after finding out it even exists with empty threats and now it seems like we might not even make it to planet salad based on the episode summaries.

There's so many things I want to explore but they are presented and forgotten so quickly in Super that it actually ticks me off. In Z and GT they alluded to other lore long before that lore is actually presented. Such as the length of time between first saying SSJ or ascending SSJ and it actually happening, of Baby and then revealing what he actually is. Even the solution to baby was tied back to Saiyan lore.

[ekrolo2]

The show simply needs to put someone in charge who's taken a good hard look at what the previous series did well, what they screwed up and avoid those same pitfalls again. Some will say new characters replacing existing ones who can fulfil the same function, characters acting a certain way when previous events should've made them stop is part of the series DNA but here's the thing: that doesn't make it automatically good.

And for a franchise as old as this, I really do find it completely baffling that there isn't any half-way creative voice with some level of competence saying "Uhm.... You guys did these exact same mistakes with GT.... Can we like.... NOT repeat them again?".

I don't know, I just get the feeling people have this weird double standard with Dragon Ball where anything that's been a long-term part of its so-called DNA is automatically good and doesn't need fixing.

Maybe this is a consequence of Toriyama coming back but I really do think that if they got some competent fresh blood onto the writing side, we'd see a marked improvement in overall story-telling quality. At the very least we'd get back to the GT level where we're getting interesting ideas, Super doesn't even really have that. It's GT if there wasn't even an iota of an interesting concept to be seen to help balance out lackluster execution.

Tbh it like the wwe with db instead fixing the mistake in the past we'll continue it in the future.

Thank God I don't watch WWE. If Dragon Ball was this smaller scale franchise that vanished from the public eye, I would probably be less critical of it. But given the fact the series has existed this long and has been so present for years and years and years, I just find it obnoxious that no one, not a single soul who's working on Super right now has went back to it and said "This is broken, we should fix it."

At the very least we'd get back to the GT level where we're getting interesting ideas, Super doesn't even really have that. It's GT if there wasn't even an iota of an interesting concept to be seen to help balance out lackluster execution.

I'm not sure I can agree with that. GT was very guilty rehashing old ideas and even then they couldn't pull them off properly. The only idea I really found interesting in GT was the Shadow Dragons and they still managed to fuck that up. Super, while a bit uneventful at the beginning, to it's credits, it has brought a lot of interesting concepts to the table such as multiple universes, a galactic king, God's of Destructions, literal omniscient beings and an expansion on the lore of the Dragon Balls that doesn't feel as out of place as it did in GT. If the future episode title spoilers of the show are any indication, they're gonna start exploring the other universes. I've never felt this hyped for GT as I have been for Super. If Super does drop the ball with these concepts, then it's on them, but let's just wait and see how thing pan out.

It rehashed some yes but it introduced others like a villain who has an actual reason to hate the Saiyan's that goes beyond DUR EVILZ with Baby, the Shadow Dragons being the ultimate result of the characters blatant abuse of the DBs over the years and managed to return a sense of gravitas to the Super Saiyan transformations with 4 along with not blatantly retconning people's personalities just for the sake of wanking Vegeta fanboys. It also managed to make Piccolo's death and fusion to Kami relevant to his character beyond giving him a quickly overshadowed power up.

I'd also say GT managed to do that thing I really like with the first two Z arcs in the way that every arc feeds into the next. The Black Star balls scattering results in them encountering Baby, which results in Super 17 which results in the Shadow Dragons. Take away any of these arcs and the whole thing just cannot happen at all.

With Super we've got a barely decent introduction into the God realm then the US government's latest experiment in finding more effective means of psychological torture with the awful, awful F arc which matters not at all in the grand scheme of things until going back to the God stuff.

I won't deny that Super has some good ideas but so far it hasn't really capitalized on any of them. Beerus is just a running food gag at this point, the multiverse concept has thus far resulted in a tournament with precisely two decent fights and then there's just the pointless convoluting of how characters powers function, replicating the same problem GT had for no apparent reason.

Both shows are deeply, deeply flawed but GTs concepts feel like nice breaks from the formula while Super feels like some decent concepts bogged down by all the problems the series has accumulated over the years in all its various incarnations reaching their logical end point with no one present to address them.