The Things GT Got Right

[Cetra]

The design and art department. As a kid I bought GT as straight up Z continuation thanks to the art.
In this task alone, GT is definitely superior to Super and lot of modern anime.

As much as I love GT though and its art I so often found myself being shocked how off the character models looked with their eyes, chin or they fact that the mouth and teeth are drawn rounder so often in GT. There are still so many genius shots of the show but sometimes I just couldn't believe the difference,

[Kunzait_83]

Hands down one of his best ever looks IMO.

I said "one of", not "the". Echoing what Zephyr said before, the biker punk look fits him well.

Come to think of it though, I have a hard time nailing down just any one single look of Vegeta's as his "best one period". All of his major ones are pretty aces. The rare times he looks dumb (mustache/shitty haircut, Badman shirt, etc.) its intentional for comedy rather than design ineptitude.

Just for the fuck of it: things that GT got right? Oob - especially Majoob.

He certainly LOOKS great, and the whole fusion with Mr. Boo idea was really cool: the problem with Oob in GT is that he's indefensibly underused. He's set up initially as Goku's student and successor. He should've had a WAY bigger role than he ultimately does. Oob's actually emblematic of one of GT's biggest flaws: wasting a very promising supporting cast in favor of over-fixating on Goku at everyone else's expense. Oob taking on Baby should've been a major showstopper, but its treated as an afterthought before he's then swept aside as almost as minor an under-card player as post-Saiya-jin arc Yamucha.

[ABED]

I don't care if he was set up (in the last three episodes!) as Goku's successor, I would rather he not be part of the story. He's a huge reason why I hate Z's ending. Goku leaves his family for a dumb kid with a Mohawk. Pan was the right person to be on the ship.

[PsionicWarrior]

I said "one of", not "the". Echoing what Zephyr said before, the biker punk look fits him well.

I know and understood.
Personally I favor how he looks in Z by far and found that great pic (dat expression) first result on google to show my profound disagreement.

The rare times he looks dumb (mustache/shitty haircut, Badman shirt, etc.) its intentional for comedy rather than design ineptitude.

Maybe oddly enough while I found the badman pink shirt hilarious mustache Vegeta almost traumatized me.

[Kunzait_83]

I don't care if he was set up (in the last three episodes!) as Goku's successor, I would rather he not be part of the story. He's a huge reason why I hate Z's ending. Goku leaves his family for a dumb kid with a Mohawk. Pan was the right person to be on the ship.

The whole "Wah! Goku's a bad father who leaves his family!" thing is one of the most tired complaints about the series in general. Goku's not supposed to be a role model nor is he meant to subscribe to the same norms as... not even people in the modern day in general, much less the U.S. specifically. All of his principals and ethics come from archaic, Asian medieval Youxia-esque values (like a zillion other fantasy martial arts protagonists from before him that he's pretty firmly modeled after). Pretty much every last inch of the comedy inherent to his relationship with Chi Chi for example revolves around "Lol! Guy who's an inherent wandering, lone traveler/adventurer-type is stuck with a nagging shrew at home!"

People who are expecting a character like this to live up to specific modern standards of ethics and decency he was never innately built for are pretty much just setting themselves up for disappointment and needless frustration time and time again. And honestly? It doesn't matter anyway. Its fiction. Characters can behave like total shits every which way however they (or rather the author) like, so long as it makes sense narratively and thematically in context of the story for them to do so. And in Goku's case it certainly does.

Dragon Ball has never been about "family" in the traditional/modern sense (for as many modernized touches as it has). In a good majority of fantasy martial arts fiction, the protagonists make decisions and demonstrate values that would be utterly horrifying to modern sensibilities, such as placing intangible ideals like "personal honor" above the immediate safety of themselves and even others, as well as valuing their bonds to total strangers they'd just met over even their own families.

But within the context of these stories and where/when they're often set, it makes perfect sense. For DB, all the sci fi and high-tech technology are just light window dressing: at its core, its set as much as in a "long ago, in a far away land" fantasy Chinese-like setting as any other wuxia tale, and the characters very often exhibit the ancient martial warrior values that go with it.

Certain examples of those characters in DB, such as Kuririn, eventually settle down and don't subscribe to them as much once they do because they consider themselves "retired" from that life. Goku never, ever does: its hardwired into him. He won't even retire from it literally after he's dead, much less in life. He's written consistently as the ultimate dedicated kung fu knight errant. Training and displays of warriors' honor come before EVERYTHING else, including blood. He's hardly even remotely close to unique in that regard.

Oob was a really cool basic concept for a character: in the Z epilogue, he makes sense and works more as a means of giving Goku some degree of character-based closure (as much as one can fit into a VERY opened ending like this one): finally he's come full circle as a martial artist and has gone from a student to a master to a teacher. The direction that much of the story ultimately went in made it so that his eldest son wouldn't have worked as his main pupil, so you get something else that's VERY much in DB's (and the fantasy kung fu genre's) nature: a former enemy made into a friend (through magical martial arts and Buddhist-esque reincarnation).

And further, Oob is perfectly in line with Goku's own character archetype: a rural, uneducated peasant boy-type with heap tons of innate talent and natural potential to be molded. Its one of the most well worn, classic archetypes in the genre's history. In any future continuation beyond that point (like GT) he easily could've been plenty cool as a new major character to develop and explore more using the thread of "Goku's chosen student/successor" as a throughline. Oob's a perfectly fine, fitting addition to the series: he was just squandered badly by an anime continuation that already had a bad track record to begin with of squandering perfectly good supporting characters (including Pan).

Not that Pan would have been a horrible choice for Goku's student/successor either, but Oob honestly has a lot more in the way of a personal connection/commonality to Goku in the areas that matter most: despite, or maybe even partly BECAUSE of, being a stranger rather than family.

DB ain't about friendship, it ain't about family (not in the traditional sense at least), it ain't about having as many "daaaaw!" moments between the characters as possible: it always has been about the martial arts primarily above everything else.

[Bansho64]

Kunzait, I feel like Goku was more like what you're describing in the latter parts (Androids. and on) of Dragon Ball. I'm not saying he didn't have Saiyan characteristcs before then but they weren't as prominent. He seemed more human in a sense. Like a blend of the two. I feel like the Saiyan arc was a perfect example of this. Goku seemed more emotional and caring. He was less playful when fighting and more serious. At the same time, we were also shown some of his protruding Saiyan characteristics near the end of the Saiyan arc when he wanted to let Vegeta solely for the reason of wanting to "get a shot" at him again. Before that, he wanted to eliminate the Saiyans and nothing but that. In my opinion, later on is when he's more concerned with fighting. After the Saiyan and the Namek arcs, he seems to get worse and worse as time goes on.

[ABED]

Do you assume I don't know all the things you mentioned? I'm more than familiar with Dragon Ball's roots. Goku's not a great family man, but he's not terrible either. It seems like you went on this big long tirade for nothing. I don't like DBZ's ending. He leaves everything without giving anyone any idea that he'll be back, EVEN THOUGH HE CAN TELEPORT! I simply don't like the ending. We're expected to be happy because Goku is happy to have found someone to train and have a great battle with but since we never see that and we just met Uub, I don't care. I want Goku to be happy around the people we do know and care about. Dragon Ball may not be about the feels but it's not a story that's short on them. For me, Pan is the more interesting choice to put on the ship than Uub because she's not merely another warrior. That being said, I liked seeing Uub defend everyone in Goku's place and even liked his strategy to hurt Baby from the inside, though I wish the writers had set it up better. As is, it's likely they thought of that twist AFTER Baby reversed Uub's attack, turning him into a candy.

Not that Pan would have been a horrible choice for Goku's student/successor either, but Oob honestly has a lot more in the way of a personal connection/commonality to Goku in the areas that matter most: despite, or maybe even partly BECAUSE of, being a stranger rather than family.

I don't care who is Goku's successor. That doesn't interest me in the least, just like I don't care who takes over for Bruce Wayne as Batman. And I don't see the logic in your argument that Uub has more potential and a personal connection to Goku BECAUSE he's a stranger. You say Goku isn't a family man, but let's not forget how DB ended - with Goku going off with Chichi to get married which is how we see him five years later at the start of DBZ. So him being happy with his family is not unprecedented. Yes, I know it's all Dragon Ball, let's not go down that road.

[TheMikado]

^ this actually brings me back to why I like GT. It was very family oriented for the Z warriors. We see Goku going on a space road trip and Vegeta NOT wanting to tag along but hang out on Earth with his Wife and family plus protect it. Goku was supposed to be hanging out with Goten but instead is with his granddaughter and has some good moments there. To top it off we get to see a lot of good moments with Hercule and Pan. And that fact that she has two very different Grandfathers that love her dearly. It was a great way to portray Goku in terms of his relationships to his family especially since we know he is a family man to some degree at the end of Dragonball.

[Kunzait_83]

It seems like you went on this big long tirade for nothing.

That could be the title of the story of my entire history on this site.

[MetaMoss]

It seems like you went on this big long tirade for nothing.

That could be the title of the story of my entire history on this site.

And I'll be damned if I didn't love reading every word of it.

[Zephyr]

It seems like you went on this big long tirade for nothing.

That could be the title of the story of my entire history on this site.

And I'll be damned if I didn't love reading every word of it.

Seconding this. Kunzait's posts are among the absolute highest quality posts I read here (even if I don't always agree with all of his opinions), coming from a very informed and underrepresented perspective here on the site.

He leaves everything without giving anyone any idea that he'll be back, EVEN THOUGH HE CAN TELEPORT!

I feel like his ability to teleport ought to give a pretty solid indication that he will be back.

[ABED]

Seconding this. Kunzait's posts are among the absolute highest quality posts I read here (even if I don't always agree with all of his opinions), coming from a very informed and underrepresented perspective here on the site.

I find the sheer size of his posts a bit much. They're well written and well informed, I just think it comes across like he's trying to win the argument almost by simply replying with gargantuan size posts.

I feel like his ability to teleport ought to give a pretty solid indication that he will be back.

Not in the five years between Z and GT. And what I meant to say was he gave no indication of when he'd be back. If he can teleport he could train with Uub during the day and be home in time for meals.

[Kunzait_83]

I find the sheer size of his posts a bit much. They're well written and well informed, I just think it comes across like he's trying to win the argument almost by simply replying with gargantuan size posts.

Nobodies' trying to "win" anything at all, least of all me. This isn't a sport or a contest. Its a discussion: an exchange of ideas/thoughts/perspectives. You put yours out there, people can either engage with it and bounce their own supporting/opposing ideas & views off of it, or not. I'm not expecting to "win" anything for my trouble in doing so. If you're not interested in or otherwise don't like & are bothered by what I (or anyone else here for that matter) have to say, then don't read it. Simple. Nobodies' putting a gun to your head.

The only reason I write as much as I do is because I'm a verbose motherfucker and I have a ton of crap that runs through my head at once. And as of my current time spent here (since I'm technically supposed to have left awhile back), this is also now PURELY a distraction while other stuff IRL around me finishes running its course. No ulterior motives whatsoever beyond those. Scout's honor.

[ABED]

Fair enough and I don't usually read long posts like that. I more often than not skim long posts instead of reading every single word.

[Scarlet Spider]

Kept the characters muscular. Had Gohan/Goten/Trunks still strong.

[Dbzfan94]

Kept the characters muscular. Had Gohan/Goten/Trunks still strong.

Not really considering Trunks and Goten only had SSJ1. But they were still powerful in their own right

[Nejishiki]

I always wondered if it was fair to assume that Goku "abandoned" his family for Oob. It just seems to be a concept that arrived from one interpretation of the story and we stuck to just that one interpretation from Dragon Ball GT. For what it's worth, Neko Majin follows up on the adventures of Goku and his family. While continuity is as flimsy as ever in that series, Toriyama himself puts pen to paper that Oob is actually staying at the Son household. It's also interesting he used Instantaneous Movement to return to his residence, which implies he normally scours the Dragon World in great distances in search for challenges for either himself or his student. Who's to say he doesn't regularly transport Oob as well? I'm not one to be a stickler for canon, but is it not fair to consider Toriyama's views on his own characters? He specifically had Goku return home instead of to Oob's village.

[Dbzfan94]

That's actually what I like to assume as what goes on.
In GT after Goku turns back into a kid it cuts to his house on Mt. Paozu (now correct me if I'm wrong) but Goku and his family talk like he visited daily, i.e not being so surprised to see him like he never visited in five years

[ABED]

That's actually what I like to assume as what goes on.
In GT after Goku turns back into a kid it cuts to his house on Mt. Paozu (now correct me if I'm wrong) but Goku and his family talk like he visited daily, i.e not being so surprised to see him like he never visited in five years

No, he hadn't seen them in five years.

[Zephyr]

Unless the people in Uub's village are as good of cooks as Chichi, there's no way Goku didn't return home often enough.