Post
by Akira » Sun Jul 03, 2016 11:58 am
Saiyanvegetable,
Okay man, I was a bit hostile in my last post, so I -partially- deserved a hand-wave response in return to it. I can't be upset with you for responding in such a fashion, when I let myself become miffed to the point of doing the same thing. In this post, I am not going to argue, I am not going to make veiled comments that incite more frustration, I am going to attempt to analyze, and understand your viewpoint. "Put myself in your shoes" so to speak. I ask that you do the same after reading what I have to say, and I ask that you please do read this in full.
From the best that I can understand, you are probably feeling ganged up on at this point, and are going to hold your ground no matter what. So let me come over to your side of the fence, and try to look at this from your angle. I believe you are feeling that everyone is hand-waving your thoughts away by saying "That is your opinion". This is clear to me where such statements from you have carried over into other recent threads. Your frustration is in the perception that others are not acknowledging the obvious flaws in the production and creation side of the new material. Your statement of finality, such as saying it is a Fact, are being misunderstood by others (myself included) as you saying that because you dislike the new material, and that it has flaws, that you are somehow labeling your personal opinion of the series as a fact. When that (obvious to you, but clearly not the rest of us in the heat of frustration) really isn't what you are saying at all, is it?
I believe what you are trying to point out, and it has been misconstrued and mis-labeled by others (again by me as well, I am not exempting myself from this), is that the production values, be it story writing, animation quality, plot consistency, music composition, etc. are sub-par. Not just when comparing it to vintage Dragonball and Dragonball Z, but when comparing it to other currently produced anime, which are making far better use of the modern tools available to them to produce an overall better product. You believe people turn a blind eye to this, and that they don't acknowledge some of the gross negligence in the creation of something touted as the "official continuation of Dragonball Z". Z, which had glaring flaws of its own, was still, on the whole, a much better managed production, especially considering the time when it was made, and the resources available at that time. (Am I close to what your position is here, I'm trying to really understand.)
If I am correct in this, then yes, I agree that the above is indeed a factual analysis. I believe when you stated "it is a fact", that this is what you were referring to, even if the rest of us could not see the forest for the trees regarding it. I want to truly acknowledge your viewpoint here and understand where you are coming from. I will say, that I have noticed these flaws too, and that it is a fact that Super is not as great as Z was.
If we look at an analogy here (and I am going to go off track and off topic here for a paragraph or two, but it seems relevant) regarding what film critics and historians have to say about popular movie series over the course of the 20th and 21st century, it is that sequels are always flawed, and can never live up to the originals. Some are done better than others, yes, but few if ever live up to the greatness of the original. This is because returning characters have to have somewhere to go, something new to do, and that often times just results in re-hashed stories, or recycled situations as even more sequels are produced. (This being even more prevalent with long running, serialized, television series') Has there ever been a sequel that "broke the mold" and been far and away better than the original? Some critics say yes, but the cases are very rare. Instances of this are rare cases indeed, and more the exception to the rule, than ever a repeatable endeavor. Capturing lightning in a bottle once is hard enough, doing it a second time reusing the same jar? Yeah, you get the idea. They sometimes site a few of the following examples:
-Star Wars Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back as being superior to Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope
-Terminator 2: Judgement Day as being superior to The Terminator
-For a Few Dollars More as being superior to Fistfull of Dollars
Even these examples, where the historians believe the sequel surpassed the original on nearly all counts of production values, storytelling, music composition, cinematography, etc. there are still hotly contested debates among fans despite one clearly being objectively better than the other. How does this tie into our discussion? Well, it is to say that odds were already nigh improbable that Dragonball Super could ever attempt to be better than Dragonball Z, let alone even its rival comparatively, no matter what they did. Ultimately, you are right, and it is indeed a fact that it is not only nowhere as good as Z, but not even at the very least, anywhere as good as it could be. I want to think that this sums up your position, and explains the underlying premise of your thinking. I understand that, and I agree with you here. This much is indeed a solid fact.
Onto analysis of me, statements I've made, what I could have done better:
While known to me, but clearly not obvious to everyone else from the types of responses from other members interspaced between our posts, I am not arguing against the above established "fact". Upon re-reading my posts and comments, it can be perceived that I am trying to defend the negligence in the creation of Super. Let me be clear here, and say that I am not. Akira Toriyama has been co-erced into coming out of "Dragonball Retirement", and writing new material again. While I am not absolutely thrilled with the outcome, it is at least something new. Am I so happy to have new material that I will just accept anything, no matter the quality deficiencies? You know, that is a distinct possibility, at least to a certain degree.
You see, by 2001, I had already seen Dragonball/Z in its entirety via very shitty fansubbed VHS and VCD bootlegs. Every episode of both television series, all the movies, and almost all the television specials. By the time Funimation got around to their own in-house dub, I was already experiencing "re-issue syndrome", watching stuff I had already seen. I purchased their bi-lingual DVDs to experience an english voice cast, and to have a more accurate subtitled Japanese version. Not to mention a better picture quality than I had been exposed to with copy of a copy of a copy of someone's original VHS recording of stuff that aired back in the 80's and 90's on Japanese television. Nonetheless, aside from some plot points being more clear to me with more accurate subtitles, and the better picture quality, I still knew everything that was going to happen. I think the only piece of material that I never saw until Funimation released a DVD of it was the GT television special. The last thing that would be a "new unseen piece". You know how that went, it was neat, but ultimately mediocre at best.
That little bit of backstory wasn't to get off topic further, but just to help maybe understand my position. Watching Super stirs some of those feelings of excitement and unknown in me, waiting each week to find out what is going to happen next. Everything in DB and Z (and even GT) has been discussed/argued to death over the past fifteen years, and I rather enjoy having new material to discuss and theorize on. It is a real bummer when nearly every single thread that is about the new material is de-railed off the original discussion, and everyone is forced to either defend their position or argue the merits of the show rather than be allowed to discuss it. Episode 50 discussion on the Super board already de-railed to this, and I just had to click the back button rather than even get involved. I had just watched the episode and wanted to talk about it, but it was already off topic and everyone was arguing wether super sucks or not. It was a real disappointment to have to just keep my discussion points to myself.
This post is long enough as it is. The bottom line to my position is that, flaws and all, I just want to enjoy the new material for what it is. That is, a serviceable and halfway-decent continuation to something I enjoyed in my younger days. I want to freely converse with others who wish to discuss without being hassled about it. I know it isn't perfect, or even "good", but it is something. At my age, I'm starting to see that sometimes something is better than nothing at all. I used to get worked up by all the injustices in this world, both big and small. Then I just started to pick and choose which ones were worth the time and effort getting upset about. (Super being only partially good is a small one, but that is my opinion on it.) Someone wise once told me to change the things in life that I could change for the better, and learn to accept or tolerate the things that were beyond my ability to change. It is within my ability to potentially change the course of this thread, that I have helped to throw so horrendously off course, and I can't do much about the flaws in a tv show produced by a mega corporation in a foreign country.
Is there a middle ground here, Saiyanvegetable? I rather loathe arguing wth people, especially when the perceptions on what both sides are actually upset about aren't clearly defined, and it leads to larger mis-understandings and mis-interpretations of what people are actually trying to say. I feel that is the case here, I think we both had a core frustration that manifested into an argument neither one of us was really trying to have.
"Of" =/= "Have"
Contractions:
-Should have = Should've
-Could have = Could've
-Would have = Would've
The heck does "should of" even mean anyway? Think about what those two words mean individually, and then try to read them back to back in a sentence and make sense of it. Are you forming a prepositional phrase, is "should" a part of a larger grouping, or are you just typing random words based on how you think you hear them used verbally? Perhaps take a moment to contemplate this, and see if it becomes as mind jarring for you to look at as it does for me..
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