Is Akira Toriyama trying to make us hate Goku?

[HeroR]

Nope, not going to include my opinion and I think all the time when it's widely known fact nobody has toriyama's scripts and it's all up in the air..

Explaining if it's officially stated to a newbie is fine but to a knowledgeable member like you this shouldn't be necessary..

Why should I pretend to know what is in your hearts of hearts?

[Ki Breaker]

Nope, not going to include my opinion and I think all the time when it's widely known fact nobody has toriyama's scripts and it's all up in the air..

Explaining if it's officially stated to a newbie is fine but to a knowledgeable member like you this shouldn't be necessary..

Why should I pretend to know what is in your hearts of hearts?

You could at least pretend to know what is officially explained and what is not, which you do too I assume..

This has strayed off topic by mile, no future participation will be done from my side

[TheMikado]

I distinctly remember the moment he throw the Potara earring at Gohan only to miss by about five feet, in a moment when Gohan was beaten half to death and Super Boo was on the verge of winning, as something that was immediately played of as a joke, despite the seriousness of the scenario.

I put that one squarely on Gohan he should have caught that I think even Goku was surprised that Gohan's reflexes were that bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hCYRbV6KkU Plus Goku this is a perfect example of contrast. Goku was in a serious monologue, pulled a gag and came back into his persona.

Not a good excuse at all.

This is yet another example of contrasting that "fight-hungry" Z Goku that people keep stating. That is a myth. There are plenty of examples in Z where Goku turns down a fight.
Goku was NOT battle crazy in Z.
He turned down Raditz and didn't want to fight him head on.
He turned down fighting Cell.
He didn't insist on fighting 16 to test his power.
He turned down fight Buu so the kids could get a go.
He wanted to turn down fighting Majin Vegeta and had to be blackmailed into it by killing people.

Stop acting like Z Goku was looking for an excuse to jump into a fight because he wasn't.

Wat!! This is such bullshit, my friend.

Goku didn't just want to fight raditz, he was also afraid of him. Making that entire moment out of character as Goku is never afraid of a fight no matter how powerful, he gets excited, not frightened.

Goku did not turn down fighting cell, he was the first one up. Hell, Goku had fun with cell and Cell had fun with Goku.

Why would Goku want to fight 16, who was weaker than Cell, hell in super, Goku didn't try fighting Cabba or Magetta. Because they aren't worth the time

He did not turn down fighting buu, he did fight buu, but he stopped because he wanted his kids to do it, just like Cell. Because just like cell, goku projected himself onto his sons, which piccolo even points on during cell.

I would have given the majin vegeta fight to you if not for the fact, he threatens supreme kai for trying to stop it because it would revive buu, oh and he fights vegeta on an even level despite having a higher transformation.

You failed here.

Just like Super will fail in western markets.
The point I made is that Goku was not mindlessly jumping into battle to fight opponents. That's not a trait western audiences are use to seeing from him. Period.

[TheMikado]

Got into Dragon Ball during my childhood. Massive Goku fan 15+ years, inspired me to bodybuild, taught me to stay strong and stand up to bullies. Super starts, my love for Goku is decreasing with every episode. Wtf, surely I aint the only one to be feeling this way?

You're not, the fact that you're even bothering to come onto this forum or watch the show at all means you're already less casual than 90% of the western audience who will watch Super. If you're noticing a stark difference in Goku imagine how all those other people may feel?

I'm giving it to the end of the arc but I'm calling it now, it's possible Supers characterization of Goku could reverse the international success of the Dragonball franchise. They've already stated that western audiences prefer more "macho" protagonists. If audiences are presented with Goku as "he was always suppose to be like this" it may make the character and subsequent merchandising less marketable to a western audience. Basically wiping away the "cool" "heroic" factor maybe fine for hardcore audiences but may damage the franchise internationally and long term.

That's the thing here. The way Goku is being portrayed now will definitely damage the western audience. UNLESS, Sean tries to focus on that heroic trait he gave him back in the Funi dub. It's the same for the UK also, we grew up with this hero Goku who always cared for others and innocent lives. When I see Goku act so selfish and reckless in these situations, it really turns me off his character. There's a line he says to Frieza which I always reflect on in life. "I don't understand why you call Saiyans by such mindless names, the only thing it does is reveal your own fear and ignorance. I guess name calling is your only attack, because you're too weak to challenge me any other way."

Now, I can never see Goku in Super showing such maturity like this.

I guess BF's heroic score helps bring the heroic Goku out more too. I think only die hard fans prefer the more selfish, fighting obsessed Goku. I don't really care for original material, if i've taken a liking to someone or something, I'm not gonna change my mind because it isn't "original"

This is what I'm getting at, outside of this forum people won't be saying "oh this is canon" or "closer to Toriyama's vision". That argument won't fly, they will just stop watching and stop liking the franchise if that's what the character is actually like.
The more I see of more casual fans interpretations of Super, the more I think it will ultimately hurt the franchise internationally.

Got into Dragon Ball during my childhood. Massive Goku fan 15+ years, inspired me to bodybuild, taught me to stay strong and stand up to bullies. Super starts, my love for Goku is decreasing with every episode. Wtf, surely I aint the only one to be feeling this way?

Perhaps Goku isn't the best character for you to focus on then? Maybe start thinking about a character switch? Vegeta is much more mature and laidback. And possesses all the pride and battle personalities Goku has. (Or well, a lot of them) so maybe you should focus on him instead.

I'm seeing more of "EOZ, GT" Vegeta in his character now, which I like. He's training but...the obsession to be the best is dying in exchange for his family.

Goku is likable in GT, if a bit annoying and childish, but definitely a fairly loyal and caring individual. His concern for Pan makes him the best Goku to me.

[HybridSaiyan]

You're not, the fact that you're even bothering to come onto this forum or watch the show at all means you're already less casual than 90% of the western audience who will watch Super. If you're noticing a stark difference in Goku imagine how all those other people may feel?

I'm giving it to the end of the arc but I'm calling it now, it's possible Supers characterization of Goku could reverse the international success of the Dragonball franchise. They've already stated that western audiences prefer more "macho" protagonists. If audiences are presented with Goku as "he was always suppose to be like this" it may make the character and subsequent merchandising less marketable to a western audience. Basically wiping away the "cool" "heroic" factor maybe fine for hardcore audiences but may damage the franchise internationally and long term.

That's the thing here. The way Goku is being portrayed now will definitely damage the western audience. UNLESS, Sean tries to focus on that heroic trait he gave him back in the Funi dub. It's the same for the UK also, we grew up with this hero Goku who always cared for others and innocent lives. When I see Goku act so selfish and reckless in these situations, it really turns me off his character. There's a line he says to Frieza which I always reflect on in life. "I don't understand why you call Saiyans by such mindless names, the only thing it does is reveal your own fear and ignorance. I guess name calling is your only attack, because you're too weak to challenge me any other way."

Now, I can never see Goku in Super showing such maturity like this.

I guess BF's heroic score helps bring the heroic Goku out more too. I think only die hard fans prefer the more selfish, fighting obsessed Goku. I don't really care for original material, if i've taken a liking to someone or something, I'm not gonna change my mind because it isn't "original"

This is what I'm getting at, outside of this forum people won't be saying "oh this is canon" or "closer to Toriyama's vision". That argument won't fly, they will just stop watching and stop liking the franchise if that's what the character is actually like.
The more I see of more casual fans interpretations of Super, the more I think it will ultimately hurt the franchise internationally.

Perhaps Goku isn't the best character for you to focus on then? Maybe start thinking about a character switch? Vegeta is much more mature and laidback. And possesses all the pride and battle personalities Goku has. (Or well, a lot of them) so maybe you should focus on him instead.

I'm seeing more of "EOZ, GT" Vegeta in his character now, which I like. He's training but...the obsession to be the best is dying in exchange for his family.

Goku is likable in GT, if a bit annoying and childish, but definitely a fairly loyal and caring individual. His concern for Pan makes him the best Goku to me.

Yeah, I made that point before. Goku's desire to protect pan above fighting is just...so satisfying.

[Totamo]

I put that one squarely on Gohan he should have caught that I think even Goku was surprised that Gohan's reflexes were that bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hCYRbV6KkU Plus Goku this is a perfect example of contrast. Goku was in a serious monologue, pulled a gag and came back into his persona.



This is yet another example of contrasting that "fight-hungry" Z Goku that people keep stating. That is a myth. There are plenty of examples in Z where Goku turns down a fight.
Goku was NOT battle crazy in Z.
He turned down Raditz and didn't want to fight him head on.
He turned down fighting Cell.
He didn't insist on fighting 16 to test his power.
He turned down fight Buu so the kids could get a go.
He wanted to turn down fighting Majin Vegeta and had to be blackmailed into it by killing people.

Stop acting like Z Goku was looking for an excuse to jump into a fight because he wasn't.

Wat!! This is such bullshit, my friend.

Goku didn't just want to fight raditz, he was also afraid of him. Making that entire moment out of character as Goku is never afraid of a fight no matter how powerful, he gets excited, not frightened.

Goku did not turn down fighting cell, he was the first one up. Hell, Goku had fun with cell and Cell had fun with Goku.

Why would Goku want to fight 16, who was weaker than Cell, hell in super, Goku didn't try fighting Cabba or Magetta. Because they aren't worth the time

He did not turn down fighting buu, he did fight buu, but he stopped because he wanted his kids to do it, just like Cell. Because just like cell, goku projected himself onto his sons, which piccolo even points on during cell.

I would have given the majin vegeta fight to you if not for the fact, he threatens supreme kai for trying to stop it because it would revive buu, oh and he fights vegeta on an even level despite having a higher transformation.

You failed here.

Just like Super will fail in western markets.
The point I made is that Goku was not mindlessly jumping into battle to fight opponents. That's not a trait western audiences are use to seeing from him. Period.

I'm not going to give examples showing you he was, but I'm going to talk about this line about the western markets.

If the funi or any dubbing company thinks that this Goku wouldn't sell, they could easily change him like they did back in the 90's. This isn't GT where a problem people have with a character is seen not heard, you can easily just write different dialogue and boom new character and his intentions can seem more heroic.

But is this a good thing? Goku in super is exaggerated at times, but this is the real him. If this Goku isn't likable to you, than you don't like goku.

It's that simple

[Totamo]

You're not, the fact that you're even bothering to come onto this forum or watch the show at all means you're already less casual than 90% of the western audience who will watch Super. If you're noticing a stark difference in Goku imagine how all those other people may feel?

I'm giving it to the end of the arc but I'm calling it now, it's possible Supers characterization of Goku could reverse the international success of the Dragonball franchise. They've already stated that western audiences prefer more "macho" protagonists. If audiences are presented with Goku as "he was always suppose to be like this" it may make the character and subsequent merchandising less marketable to a western audience. Basically wiping away the "cool" "heroic" factor maybe fine for hardcore audiences but may damage the franchise internationally and long term.

That's the thing here. The way Goku is being portrayed now will definitely damage the western audience. UNLESS, Sean tries to focus on that heroic trait he gave him back in the Funi dub. It's the same for the UK also, we grew up with this hero Goku who always cared for others and innocent lives. When I see Goku act so selfish and reckless in these situations, it really turns me off his character. There's a line he says to Frieza which I always reflect on in life. "I don't understand why you call Saiyans by such mindless names, the only thing it does is reveal your own fear and ignorance. I guess name calling is your only attack, because you're too weak to challenge me any other way."

Now, I can never see Goku in Super showing such maturity like this.

I guess BF's heroic score helps bring the heroic Goku out more too. I think only die hard fans prefer the more selfish, fighting obsessed Goku. I don't really care for original material, if i've taken a liking to someone or something, I'm not gonna change my mind because it isn't "original"

This is what I'm getting at, outside of this forum people won't be saying "oh this is canon" or "closer to Toriyama's vision". That argument won't fly, they will just stop watching and stop liking the franchise if that's what the character is actually like.
The more I see of more casual fans interpretations of Super, the more I think it will ultimately hurt the franchise internationally.

Perhaps Goku isn't the best character for you to focus on then? Maybe start thinking about a character switch? Vegeta is much more mature and laidback. And possesses all the pride and battle personalities Goku has. (Or well, a lot of them) so maybe you should focus on him instead.

I'm seeing more of "EOZ, GT" Vegeta in his character now, which I like. He's training but...the obsession to be the best is dying in exchange for his family.

Goku is likable in GT, if a bit annoying and childish, but definitely a fairly loyal and caring individual. His concern for Pan makes him the best Goku to me.

Ok, now you are being a hypocrite. Goku ditches his family in GT for 100 years for no clear damn reason and Goku has shown a deep care for Pan in Super.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Sean Schemmel voicing him makes his personality 100x better honestly in the dub. I really dont like his VA in Japan.... She does a great job with the rest of his family but i hate her tone with Goku. Just my opinion. She did awesome with Black...its just her Goku I disagree with.

[SansrivaaL]

Sean Schemmel voicing him makes his personality 100x better honestly in the dub. I really dont like his VA in Japan.... She does a great job with the rest of his family but i hate her tone with Goku. Just my opinion. She did awesome with Black...its just her Goku I disagree with.

Agree'd, she voices Goku too childish, with Black she was "SUBARASHIIII".
Make Nozawa's Goku sound a lil serious while saying those lines and they're actually ok.

[HeroR]

Just like Super will fail in western markets.
The point I made is that Goku was not mindlessly jumping into battle to fight opponents. That's not a trait western audiences are use to seeing from him. Period.

That is BS. The west have seen the more selfish Goku with Kai, which is truer to the text of the original, and they saw the movies written by Toriyama which has more selfish Goku. Guess what. They were all smashed hits.

And we actually have ratings for Super here in the US. It isn't failing at all. If you're going to make bold statements like this, at least used facts instead of your own bias of what you think the western audience wants.

[TheMikado]

Just like Super will fail in western markets.
The point I made is that Goku was not mindlessly jumping into battle to fight opponents. That's not a trait western audiences are use to seeing from him. Period.

That is BS. The west have seen the more selfish Goku with Kai, which is truer to the text of the original, and they saw the movies written by Toriyama which has more selfish Goku. Guess what. They were all smashed hits.

And we actually have ratings for Super here in the US. It isn't failing at all. If you're going to make bold statements like this, at least used facts instead of your own bias of what you think the western audience wants.

You're absolutely right. We do have ratings for Super. But, you're wrong in thinking that I dont have facts:
Super barely beats our Kai in late night shows despite being a new series, To be fair it does have the 8PM showing, but that one is even lower than the midnight showing despite having a younger demographic and earlier prime time slot.
And we havent even gotten to the actual "selfish, jerk, dumb" Goku parts yet... The series only premiered a few weeks ago.







To its benefit, it is one of the top five late night shows talked about on social media, but when competing against Cops and Justice with Judy Jeanine, I'm not sure that's something to really write home about...
[spoiler][/spoiler]

These aren't bad numbers but its a brand new series and doing number comparable to kai with more of a financial investment so interpret it how you want, I'm just providing the "facts".
http://www.toonamisquad.com/toonami-rat ... b-04-2017/

[HeroR]

You're absolutely right. We do have ratings for Super. But, you're wrong in thinking that I dont have facts:
Super barely beats our Kai in late night shows despite being a new series, To be fair it does have the 8PM showing, but that one is even lower than the midnight showing despite having a younger demographic and earlier prime time slot.
And we havent even gotten to the actual "selfish, jerk, dumb" Goku parts yet... The series only premiered a few weeks ago.







To its benefit, it is one of the top five late night shows talked about on social media, but when competing against Cops and Justice with Judy Jeanine, I'm not sure that's something to really write home about...
[spoiler][/spoiler]

These aren't bad numbers but its a brand new series and doing number comparable to kai with more of a financial investment so interpret it how you want, I'm just providing the "facts".
http://www.toonamisquad.com/toonami-rat ... b-04-2017/

Super also only got started six weeks ago and it is already pulling those number. When Kai first premiered on Adult Swim Toonami, it wasn't making those kind of ratings and as you say, it has two showing that divides up the numbers. Kai didn't start really pulling in numbers until around the Namek Saga.

I also should be noted that Buu Kai is dub premier never seen until now and there are a lot of fans who watched Adult Swim Toonami who is only familiar with Kai not Z. I go to those forums and they were any confused fans when they watched Super wondering who Buu was.

So yes. You're full of it when you claim Super will fail in the west base on the fact that Goku isn't Superman, which hasn't been Goku's personality in the west since Funi did Kai where people saw how much a prick Goku can be. And even before Kai, Goku was well remembered in the US for giving Cell a Senzu and sending his 11 years old son to fight a murderous android.

[TheMikado]

^ its a prediction, but I guess time will tell. No point in arguing over the future. My simple prediction is that the way Goku is portrayed in Super will not appeal to western audiences.
If it turns into a wild success, great. If not, I'm not surprised and can point to a multitude of reasons why. That's all.

[Faisal Shourov]

Goku was never a hero and was always pretty selfish even in the manga. But Super is exaggerating even that I admit.

And yes, Goku was never meant to be a Superman like character (which is what Funimation dub showed). Goku wouldn't hesitate giving genociders second chance for a good fight. He loves fighting much more than saving lives.

I am looking forward to see Goku's reaction after Zeno destroys a universe tho. If Goku doesn't shed a single tear that will break some illusions of him being a righteous hero.