Thoughts on Brian Drummond's Vegeta?

[Robo4900]

I dare you to try and prove this. This was a fan created rumour based on speculation and wishful thinking, nothing more.

I very much agree with this.

A couple of voices sound kinda similar(#17 and #18, fat Boo... I can't really think of anyone else), but most of them are very much their own thing(#19, Cell, Boo-era Gohan, Mr. Satan, all the returning voices), and I've never understood where this rumour came from. If they were trying to match the Funimation dub, they wouldn't have changed Instant Transmission to Instant Translocation, they would have given Vegetto two voices, and they would have changed Cell's VA when he transformed each time.

Then Ironically Ocean went on through the the Cell-Buu arcs with a dub that was using Funi's scripts.

The old Saban/Ocean dub also used Funimation's scripts. I don't get why people talk about this like it's even vaguely relevant as anything other than a mild curiosity for those who weren't already aware of that fact.

Also imitated some of Funi's cast,and those that didn't had voices so terrible it gave even Funi's worst voices a run for it's money.

The former: Not true. The latter: Purely a matter of opinion, which is hardly popular; look at how many people on Kanzenshuu love Brad Swaile's Gohan.
The returning cast members basically continued doing the same thing as they were doing before, although in some cases they changed it up a little to match the time that had passed(Scott McNeil gave Piccolo a more chilled-out sound to his voice). The new cast members occasionally didn't quite hit the mark(Terry Klassen's Babidi, for example), but more often than not, they did a great job(Brian Dobson's Kid, Evil, and Super Boo; Brad Swaile's Gohan; Jillian Michaels' Goten; Brian Drummond's solo Vegetto). Okay, maybe whether or not they did a great job is more of a matter of opinion than anything else, but if we put aside whether or not the voices fit, it's plainly obvious the acting was better across the board in the Ocean dub. Which brings me onto my next point...

Professionals or not, a rushed badly directed dub is a rushed badly directed dub.

I agree, and that's why I will never be able to endorse Funimation's Z dub.

Here's the thing: Neither Funi's nor either of Ocean's dubs were particularly well-directed. The main difference is that while Funimation's was entirely staffed by total amateurs who couldn't even do well with a good director, Ocean's was staffed by experienced professionals. And sure, every now and then you'd get an episode where they fell fairly flat, but even in their more poorly-directed episodes, they still end up head and shoulders above Funi, acting-wise.
One popular point of criticism about the Westwood run of the Ocean dub is that it was low-budget and cut corners. Thing is, Funimation's did the exact same thing. Ultimately, which dub is superior is up to individual tastes, but the only thing I will say is a strict improvement in one dub over the other is that Ocean's has better acting. Everything else could be argued until the end of time.

[NitroEX]

Ocean 17 and 18 sound similar to Funimation 17 and 18 IMO, only more monotone.

A similarity in tone doesn't equal an imitation. The Westwood dub had plenty of voices that sounded completely different to Funimation's, if they were imitating it would be consistent with similarities throughout (like the Bang Zoom dub).

[ABED]

I'm not sure what you mean by "has nothing to do with being professional".

It means that the reason Americans often drop their accents or foreign actors use a "neutral" American accent is because there's this belief among film and TV producers that regional accents might put off some viewers. Vince McMahon didn't like Jim Ross and Jim Cornette commentating together because he thought it sounded "too southern."

There is no standard American accent. Even Southern accent is too broad.

I don't hear southern, I hear stereotypical pro wrestler. We don't even know where exactly he's from and it's a fictional world, the rules can be whatever the writer wants. I think your issue is that it breaks with convention, not becuase it's inherently wrong.

[8000 Saiyan]

I honestly don't mind Dragon Ball characters having accents.

[MR.Mark]

I guess the point I was trying to make is old Z Funi and Ocean dubs are equally bad. Sure both dubs have some standouts of quality but overall Ocean may of sounded better from an acting standpoint under Saban. However after that they were no better than Funi, if not worse sometimes. Ocean's Kabito comes to mind, or there Kaioshin that sounds bored etc.

Getting into debates over these dubs when it comes to quality is pointless imo, they're both awful.

[Robo4900]

I guess the point I was trying to make is old Z Funi and Ocean dubs are equally bad. Sure both dubs have some standouts of quality but overall Ocean may of sounded better from an acting standpoint under Saban. However after that they were no better than Funi, if not worse sometimes. Ocean's Kabito comes to mind, or there Kaioshin that sounds bored etc.

Getting into debates over these dubs when it comes to quality is pointless imo, they're both awful.

Yeah, that's probably the closest we're going to get to an objective look at this.

They're both enjoyable for their cheesy awfulness, and the legitimate good quality of the original show that shines through the poor handling, but ultimately, they are both very poor dubs.

Ultimately, if I had to watch a dub, I'd watch the Ocean dub because that's what I grew up with, and in fact, I often revisit it because I do enjoy it a whole lot, but I'm under no illusions about its quality.

[8000 Saiyan]

I have to agree with MR.Mark. I have no idea what the voice directors were thinking with Ocean Kibito and Supreme Kai. Didn't they realize how ridiculous and monotonous those two voices were? If Ocean dubs Buu Kai, then they should recast those two voices.

[MR.Mark]

I guess the point I was trying to make is old Z Funi and Ocean dubs are equally bad. Sure both dubs have some standouts of quality but overall Ocean may of sounded better from an acting standpoint under Saban. However after that they were no better than Funi, if not worse sometimes. Ocean's Kabito comes to mind, or there Kaioshin that sounds bored etc.

Getting into debates over these dubs when it comes to quality is pointless imo, they're both awful.

Yeah, that's probably the closest we're going to get to an objective look at this.

They're both enjoyable for their cheesy awfulness, and the legitimate good quality of the original show that shines through the poor handling, but ultimately, they are both very poor dubs.

Ultimately, if I had to watch a dub, I'd watch the Ocean dub because that's what I grew up with, and in fact, I often revisit it because I do enjoy it a whole lot, but I'm under no illusions about its quality.

Well yes nostalgia is a powerful thing, and we all have our guilty pleasures sure. I don't find either dub enjoyable however, and rather watch neither.

[MR.Mark]

I have to agree with MR.Mark. I have no idea what the voice directors were thinking with Ocean Kibito and Supreme Kai. Didn't they realize how ridiculous and monotonous those two voices were? If Ocean dubs Buu Kai, then they should recast those two voices.

Other notable bad standouts from the Ocean dub off the top of my head:

-Android 16 who sounds like he's chocking to death
-Too old and also bored sounding teen Trunks
-Opera singing Cell
-Terry's Babidi who's Krillin voice would slip in now and then, ugh
-Kirby's Goku who is far to mellow sounding

[8000 Saiyan]

Neither dubs are good, but at least Ocean had good acting. I'd take Ocean's dubs of the three movies and Funi Kai over the former. The latter dubs are what a dub of Dragon Ball Z should be like. Great acting, great scripts and great direction.

Other notable bad standouts from the Ocean dub off the top of my head:

-Android 16 who sounds like he's chocking to death
-Too old and also bored sounding teen Trunks
-Opera singing Cell
-Terry's Babidi who's Krillin voice would slip in now and then, ugh
-Kirby's Goku who is far to mellow sounding

Well, he did much better in the end of Z:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbst9xS ... e=youtu.be

[Robo4900]

-Android 16 who sounds like he's chocking to death

I seem to remember him later changing his mind and going in a different direction with that voice after a few episodes.

I agree with 8000 Saiyan about Trunks, but in fairness, during the Cell arc, which is where most of Trunks's appearances are, he wasn't great.
The rest I'll give you.

I really do want to see Ocean Kai out there though; I've always loved the Ocean actors, and hearing them deliver actually good material in Dragon Ball will be incredible. They just need to air the damn thing.

[8000 Saiyan]

-Android 16 who sounds like he's chocking to death

I seem to remember him later changing his mind and going in a different direction with that voice after a few episodes.

I agree with 8000 Saiyan about Trunks, but in fairness, during the Cell arc, which is where most of Trunks's appearances are, he wasn't great.
The rest I'll give you.

I really do want to see Ocean Kai out there though; I've always loved the Ocean actors, and hearing them deliver actually good material in Dragon Ball will be incredible. They just need to air the damn thing.

Yeah, it's true that he went for a different direction, like in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ytX20KK5k4
My God, Jillian Michaels is awful as Gohan, too girlish. Can't to wait to see how Henderson nailed this scene in Ocean Kai.

[MR.Mark]

Neither dubs are good, but at least Ocean had good acting. I'd take Ocean's dubs of the three movies and Funi Kai over the former. The latter dubs are what a dub of Dragon Ball Z should be like. Great acting, great scripts and great direction.

Other notable bad standouts from the Ocean dub off the top of my head:

-Android 16 who sounds like he's chocking to death
-Too old and also bored sounding teen Trunks
-Opera singing Cell
-Terry's Babidi who's Krillin voice would slip in now and then, ugh
-Kirby's Goku who is far to mellow sounding

Well, he did much better in the end of Z:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbst9xS ... e=youtu.be

Still sounds too old imo, but Brad's Gohan is def a standout from that dub.

Also, Ocean having good acting is subjective, I felt it had a rushed and awkward delivery half the time. There were moments where the actors sounded like they were more concerned to match the mouth flaps, Drummond had this problem with Vegeta a lot.

[Robo4900]

Yeah, it's true that he went for a different direction, like in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ytX20KK5k4
My God, Jillian Michaels is awful as Gohan, too girlish. Can't to wait to see how Henderson nailed this scene in Ocean Kai.

Yeah, that's fair enough.
I always thought Michaels was better as Goten than Gohan. She gave Goten a really fun spirit that suits the young, fun-loving, energetic Gohan, but came off a little underwhelming as the older Gohan.

Still sounds too old imo, but Brad's Gohan is def a standout from that dub.

Agreed on both. Brad Swaile's Gohan is, to me, as definitive as McNeil's Piccolo and Drummond's Vegeta/Vegetto.

Also, Ocean having good acting is subjective, I felt it had a rushed and awkward delivery half the time. There were moments where the actors sounded like they were more concerned to match the mouth flaps, Drummond had this problem with Vegeta a lot.

It depends on the episode. Some episodes had poor direction, and gave them some slightly stilted dialogue. Other times, they actually did a great job. Some actors do better than others, too; Swaile's Gohan, for example, always sounds very fitting, while Kelamis's Goku is highly dependant on the director for the given episode -- sometimes he lived up to his legendary status established with the Pioneer trilogy, other times he fell flat.

In general what I find, though, is that the Ocean actors generally tend to over-act more than they under-act, so even if they do miss the mark, more often than not it'll still end up rather entertaining. Personally, I find the opposite to be true for Funimation.

[8000 Saiyan]

Yeah, it's true that he went for a different direction, like in this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ytX20KK5k4
My God, Jillian Michaels is awful as Gohan, too girlish. Can't to wait to see how Henderson nailed this scene in Ocean Kai.

Yeah, that's fair enough.
I always thought Michaels was better as Goten than Gohan. She gave Goten a really fun spirit that suits the young, fun-loving, energetic Gohan, but came off a little underwhelming as the older Gohan.

Still sounds too old imo, but Brad's Gohan is def a standout from that dub.

Agreed on both. Brad Swaile's Gohan is, to me, as definitive as McNeil's Piccolo and Drummond's Vegeta/Vegetto.

Also, Ocean having good acting is subjective, I felt it had a rushed and awkward delivery half the time. There were moments where the actors sounded like they were more concerned to match the mouth flaps, Drummond had this problem with Vegeta a lot.

It depends on the episode. Some episodes had poor direction, and gave them some slightly stilted dialogue. Other times, they actually did a great job. Some actors do better than others, too; Swaile's Gohan, for example, always sounds very fitting, while Kelamis's Goku is highly dependant on the director for the given episode -- sometimes he lived up to his legendary status established with the Pioneer trilogy, other times he fell flat.

In general what I find, though, is that the Ocean actors generally tend to over-act more than they under-act, so even if they do miss the mark, more often than not it'll still end up rather entertaining. Personally, I find the opposite to be true for Funimation.

At its worst, overacting is better than underacting at its worst. At least in my opinion.

[MR.Mark]

There was def underacting going on with Ocean, again I'd just rather watch Funi kai dubs and onwards for Dragon Ball material.

[Super_Divine_Genki]

I was very late to seeing the Westwood dub of the Artificial Human/Cell arc and Boo arc because I didn't even know that it existed until about 6 years ago. From what I remember, Brad Swaile's Boo-arc-Gohan really stood out to me. Much closer to being age appropriate compared to Hebert's dry take (which I never cared for back then in my one run-through of the dub), and the delivery was good as well. It was youthful and refreshing. Too bad that whole production was so rushed.

Does anyone else see an irony here? FUNi goes through with a production overhaul in '98-'99 to cut costs and hires a small group of amateurs (literally) to put some poorly performed voices over video, effectively giving us a borderline parody series with "Season 3" and somehow actually upping Z's popularity (I credit that more to the story). This same group then expands along the way, improves their take on the characters after a decade, and are now viewed as DB royalty by most fans of the English dub. Meanwhile, the Ocean cast -- who did the heavy lifting in first establishing DBZ's popularity in the U.S. once it hit Toonami -- have been viewed as outcasts and are now like ghosts hovering around as background noise.

The FUNi in-house actors get to coast along on the back of a super-popular franchise (video games too!) for the rest of their lives, while the actual trained professional Ocean group has to settle with dubbing a plethora of way less popular/more obscure shows to get by financially. On one hand, the rags-to-riches story is feel good with FUNi and I respect their dedication to the series, but I can't help but feel that the Ocean cast got the short end here (although they have no trouble landing dubbing work).

Yeah, almost 20 years later and the Ocean cast still crosses my mind when I see a topic like this. "What could've been?"

While I'm 99.9% about viewing the series in its original presentation, I'm actually very curious to hear this "Ocean dub" of Kai when it gets "leaked" down the road. Mostly because of hearing another take on a dedicated English Goku, and of course to hear McNeil and Drummond again, this time with better directing/accurate scripts. I'm also curious to hear the supposed replacement score.

At this point, I look for a good English alternative of DB so that I can recommend it to anyone that's up for checking the series out, which ranges from younger kids to adults in their 50's who can't be bothered with subtitles. FUNi Kai is the only one that I can recommend because it goes through all of Z, and is serviceable enough.

And then, there's this other alternate English dub of Super that's out there too that I haven't heard yet (nor the FUNi one). This franchise is a strange entity. May as well make an "Ocean dub" of Super too while it's hot, and in the spirit of adding even more confusion to the mix of the history of English dubbed DB. :p

[90sDBZ]

One popular point of criticism about the Westwood run of the Ocean dub is that it was low-budget and cut corners. Thing is, Funimation's did the exact same thing. Ultimately, which dub is superior is up to individual tastes, but the only thing I will say is a strict improvement in one dub over the other is that Ocean's has better acting. Everything else could be argued until the end of time.

I'd say you could also argue over the acting until the end of time too, particularly in the case of the Westwood dub which didn't even come close to the Saban or Pioneer dubs in that department. I'm not going to claim the overall acting in Funimation Z was fantastic or anything, but I personally find it to be much more serviceable than what we got from the Westwood dub. Ocean were professionals, that much is beyond question. But it would be very difficult to see that if your only exposure to them was through the Westwood dub.

[8000 Saiyan]

One popular point of criticism about the Westwood run of the Ocean dub is that it was low-budget and cut corners. Thing is, Funimation's did the exact same thing. Ultimately, which dub is superior is up to individual tastes, but the only thing I will say is a strict improvement in one dub over the other is that Ocean's has better acting. Everything else could be argued until the end of time.

I'd say you could also argue over the acting until the end of time too, particularly in the case of the Westwood dub which didn't even come close to the Saban or Pioneer dubs in that department. I'm not going to claim the overall acting in Funimation Z was fantastic or anything, but I personally find it to be much more serviceable than what we got from the Westwood dub. Ocean were professionals, that much is beyond question. But it would be very difficult to see that if your only exposure to them was through the Westwood dub.

To me, the Funi and the Westwood dubs are in the same level of quality. Both dubs got better, but it doesn't mean much IMO.

I'm sure anyone would notice that a poor dub from a bunch of professionals doesn't sound professional.

[NitroEX]

There is no standard American accent. Even Southern accent is too broad.

Too broad for you maybe, but the "southern" term works just fine for getting the point across in this discussion. Arguing over which exact southern American state the accent comes from is just splitting hairs for no reason. Most people, especially those outside America, can easily infer what I mean when I descibe Rager's Satan as sounding "southern". Sorry if it bothers you that I'm not specific enough but it's not an issue I feel is worth further discussion.

I don't hear southern, I hear stereotypical pro wrestler. We don't even know where exactly he's from and it's a fictional world, the rules can be whatever the writer wants. I think your issue is that it breaks with convention, not becuase it's inherently wrong.

"Stereotypical pro wrestler" is an even more broad term than me saying "southern", and Funimation had no input from the original writers and creators of the product, it's just their interpritation.

I'm fine with breaking convention, alien DBZ characters with foreign accents don't bother me because I think they work rather well.

Rager's Satan isn't inherently wrong but I think the accent choice does nothing to really enhance the character and because of that, I've never really felt it justified it's own existence. Wrestlers might have influenced Toriyama on small elements of Satan's design (although to what extent has never been confirmed, as he's mentioned not being a fan of wrestling) but overall it's only a superficial connection at best as he still shares more in common with a martial artist than any wrestler (breaking tiles with a karate chop and wearing a gi for example).

Still sounds too old imo, but Brad's Gohan is def a standout from that dub.

Also, Ocean having good acting is subjective, I felt it had a rushed and awkward delivery half the time. There were moments where the actors sounded like they were more concerned to match the mouth flaps, Drummond had this problem with Vegeta a lot.

Alistair Abell's Trunks sounding "too old" is also a subjective opinion, one that I have never personally agreed with. As an older-looking teen with a brooding disposition (and one who takes himself seriously) I think the voice fits his age and personality fairly well. Need I remind you this is the same era that cast grown men as even younger looking teens in Gundam Wing. In my opinion he was appropriatley cast, his acting or misdirection was the only real issue.

And while we're on the subject of Alistair and what dub A did better than dub B, his version of the USSJ transformation scene wasn't as bad as Eric Vale's Z performance. Vale sounded like he was in pain during the entire thing. https://youtu.be/mK-rPpn8e08?t=1m9s