GT is canon as much as Super is

ZodaEX · Post by **ZodaEX** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:10 am

PFM18 wrote:
Kokonoe wrote:
PFM18 wrote:why does this thread even exist? Toriyama is integrally involved in Super but did next to nothing for GT. End of story.
So you're saying Battle of the Gods is more canon than Super is?
Only reason it isn't is because it was retconned. Battle of Gods the movie when it came out was more canon than GT.

Battle of the Gods was never retconned. It just has continuity errors that's all. Dragon Ball just being Dragon Ball.

PFM18 · Post by **PFM18** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:24 am

ZodaEX wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Kokonoe wrote: So you're saying Battle of the Gods is more canon than Super is?
Only reason it isn't is because it was retconned. Battle of Gods the movie when it came out was more canon than GT.
Battle of the Gods was never retconned. It just has continuity errors that's all. Dragon Ball just being Dragon Ball.

It was retconned because it was overwritten by the BoG arc in the manga/anime of Super.

ZodaEX · Post by **ZodaEX** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 2:35 am

PFM18 wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:
PFM18 wrote: Only reason it isn't is because it was retconned. Battle of Gods the movie when it came out was more canon than GT.
Battle of the Gods was never retconned. It just has continuity errors that's all. Dragon Ball just being Dragon Ball.
It was retconned because it was overwritten by the BoG arc in the manga/anime of Super.

In what way do you think the BOG manga arc retconned the BOGs film?

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Wed Jan 30, 2019 7:29 am

ZodaEX wrote:Battle of the Gods was never retconned. It just has continuity errors that's all. Dragon Ball just being Dragon Ball.

The movies only have continuity errors if compared to Toei's and Toyotaro's versions, in reality, it is because of so much differences the discrepancies the very reason to exist three continuities.

But yeah, nothing has been "retconned". The movies are in the Toriyama's continuity and cannot be "overwritten" by other entities. Only Toriyama himself could overwrite them, but we know that Toriyama has nothing to do with the retellings, therefore, the movies are still valid and one can consider them just fine.

PFM18 · Post by **PFM18** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 1:01 am

ZodaEX wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:
Battle of the Gods was never retconned. It just has continuity errors that's all. Dragon Ball just being Dragon Ball.
It was retconned because it was overwritten by the BoG arc in the manga/anime of Super.
In what way do you think the BOG manga arc retconned the BOGs film?

It's very existence retcons the BoG film. It exists to replace the BoG movie in that continuity and it overwrite it completely.

ZodaEX · Post by **ZodaEX** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 3:07 am

PFM18 wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
It was retconned because it was overwritten by the BoG arc in the manga/anime of Super.
In what way do you think the BOG manga arc retconned the BOGs film?
It's very existence retcons the BoG film. It exists to replace the BoG movie in that continuity and it overwrite it completely.

That's not even remotely close to being true.

Baggie_Saiyan · Post by **Baggie_Saiyan** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 7:47 am

Grimlock wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:Battle of the Gods was never retconned. It just has continuity errors that's all. Dragon Ball just being Dragon Ball.
The movies only have continuity errors if compared to Toei's and Toyotaro's versions, in reality, it is because of so much differences the discrepancies the very reason to exist three continuities.

But yeah, nothing has been "retconned". The movies are in the Toriyama's continuity and cannot be "overwritten" by other entities. Only Toriyama himself could overwrite them, but we know that Toriyama has nothing to do with the retellings, therefore, the movies are still valid and one can consider them just fine.

It was Toriyama's idea for the retellings and things like the Namekian Book of Legends were name dropped so he had involvement.

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 10:15 am

Baggie_Saiyan wrote:It was Toriyama's idea for the retellings and things like the Namekian Book of Legends were name dropped so he had involvement.

Being Toriyama's idea is irrelevant. That does not confirm that the way Toei and Toyotaro retold the movies is the way Toriyama sees the events. Well, if Dragon Ball Super Broly is anything to go by, definitely Toei's and Toyotaro's versions are not the way Toriyama sees it. Toriyama provided designs for the movies but that doesn't mean the movies take place in the manga's continuity.

Also that book may very well be something meant to be in the movie but they preferred to leave out but Toei used it in its version.

PFM18 · Post by **PFM18** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:24 pm

ZodaEX wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
ZodaEX wrote:
In what way do you think the BOG manga arc retconned the BOGs film?
It's very existence retcons the BoG film. It exists to replace the BoG movie in that continuity and it overwrite it completely.
That's not even remotely close to being true.

Oh, it's not true because you said so?

Why would the arc exist if not to overwrite the movie? It is just there for no reason?

KBABZ · Post by **KBABZ** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:54 pm

PFM18 wrote:Why would the arc exist if not to overwrite the movie? It is just there for no reason?

I mean at this point the logic would involve a sort of Top Trumps effect. Battle of Gods the movie came out first in 2013, but then the manga comes out in June 2015 to overwrite it, and then the anime appears in July 2015 to overwrite that. So apparently the manga was the true canon for about a month, I'm guessing??

The real answer is that not enough care has been put into the various tellings of BoG and RoF to make sense of it, since there's no clear winner or "fullest story". There's just three versions of the same story.

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 4:59 pm

Why do any of these negate the others? How different (other than time) are the events in each telling?

KBABZ · Post by **KBABZ** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:01 pm

ABED wrote:Why do any of these negate the others? How different (other than time) are the events in each telling?

I think they're trying to figure out which one to pick and slot in with the Super anime, rather than figuring as I have that there is no real answer because Dragon Ball is so infamously wishy-washy with canon and timelines and whatnot.

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:05 pm

KBABZ wrote:
ABED wrote:Why do any of these negate the others? How different (other than time) are the events in each telling?
I think they're trying to figure out which one to pick and slot in with the Super anime, rather than figuring as I have that there is no real answer because Dragon Ball is so infamously wishy-washy with canon and timelines and whatnot.

Is it really? We can take it as a given that the original 42 volumes are canon.

Also, we take a lot as a given in life, but when I talk to people who don't possess the same frames of reference as I do and have to explain things, I realize how much we all take as a given. What are we talking about when we say "canon"?

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:07 pm

KBABZ wrote:since there's no clear winner or "fullest story".

By people standards, the movie would win because you often see people saying that whatever Toriyama does is what should be counted (and again, it's funny when you see those same people using the retellings as arguments, they are favoring Toei/Toyotaro instead of Toriyama himself. Well, I guess being contradictory is a common trait of humans).

KBABZ wrote:There's just three versions of the same story.

Correct. Three versions, three continuities. None negates the other because there is no canon. A canon would tell you which one to follow (thus negating the other two continuities), since there isn't one...

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:15 pm

there is no canon.

What does that mean?

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:17 pm

It means people are entitled to consider/ignore whatever they want.

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:20 pm

Grimlock wrote:It means people are entitled to consider whatever they want.

I don't think that's the case at all. We know that the events of the original manga constitute the story we know as DB. It's the adaptations, continuations, and ancillary material that makes the issue confusing.

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:26 pm

*sigh*

Yeah, man, we know the events of the original manga cannot be disregarded, they are the foundation of everything. The canon and works we always discuss are obviously meant to be toward the other works, you know, TV Specials, OVAs, movies, retellings and game (Dragon Ball Online only). This is where lies the issue. No one is disputing the validity of the original manga, you are the only one who always bring it up for no reason at all.

And no, the original manga is not the only thing that constitutes Dragon Ball. The "main continuity" (the original manga) may accept other works into as well as works that do not take place in the main continuity also help constitute what is Dragon Ball.

ABED · Post by **ABED** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:30 pm

Grimlock wrote:*sigh*

Yeah, man, we know the events of the original manga cannot be disregarded, they are the foundation of everything. The canon and works we always discuss are obviously meant to be toward the other works, you know, TV Specials, OVAs, movies, retellings and game (Dragon Ball Online only). This is where lies the issue. No one is disputing the validity of the original manga, you are the only one who bring it up for no reason at all.

I'm bringing it up because people keep saying nonsensical things like "there is no canon". If we agree that the original story is the foundation, that statement is rendered null and void. It's not nearly as astute as the people making it think it is. It makes things MORE confusing.

Unless the powers that be make an explicit statement regarding the other material such as GT and Super, I don't think it's useful to think about what is canon. It's more useful to think about each on their own terms. What material does GT take into account for its story (in this case, the anime which includes filler)?

Grimlock · Post by **Grimlock** » Thu Jan 31, 2019 5:33 pm

Then do the favor and explain to us how you "manage" the other works if there is canon and only the manga is. What are all the other works? Where do they stand before the canon/solely the manga? What word do you use for them?

Kanzenshuu

GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is

Re: GT is canon as much as Super is