I love the Funimation Dub pre-Kai

[Doctor.]

and the Pokemon anime

Just wanted to interject here: the first season(s) of the Pokemon anime is not completely devoid of artistic merit. It was (the Japanese version at least, not the 4kids version and all other international dubs based on it) the passionate effort of one Takeshi Shudo, who actually tried to inject the series with some form of creativity and personality before it eventually turned into the mega cashcow and promotional cartoon it is now.

Doesn't mean it was good, I'm saying it wasn't soulless.

[MasenkoHA]

And again BTAS and Batman Beyond take two totally different style. BTAS art style was based on the Max Fleischer Superman cartoons from the 1940s. The aesthetics and tone deliberately invoked more classic films like Angels with Dirty Faces. Beyond had a more modern anime esque style and was more cyberpunk.


Dragon Ball and Z it’s all Eastern Wuxia. There’s a slight sci fi bent by Z (until the Buu saga) but it doesn’t permeate the tone as much as Funimation wants to pretend


I also need to second that nothing in Beyond really required you to watch Batman:TAS. Especially since Batman is an actual pop culture icon the premise “and then Batman got really old and took on a successor” is efficient enough

[90sDBZ]

But they aren't. Goku is the main character in both DB and DBZ. The distinction between the two series is artificial as it is all just DB. Whereas Beyond honestly doesn't require the audience to know that much about Bruce Wayne before seeing Beyond. You're given all the relevant context and exposition in the series for it to land emotionally and make sense. Setting that aside, Beyond has a different main character and setting. It's the city but far into the future, and a lot of it takes place in high school which is a huge difference. That's the context you are missing. The DCAU is connected, but it's still very episodic, whereas DB is hyper serialized. While Beyond is a sequel series, it can stand on its own as well. DBZ episode 1 might as well be DB episode 154.

All I should have to say is Terry is the main character of Beyond, not Bruce. The difference in setting and main character is enough to prove the difference in score is appropriate.

But you do need to see TAS to get the most you can out of Beyond. Passing mentions of stuff can only do so much. Sure you could watch Beyond first, but you'd be lacking a lot of context that adds a lot of emtional depth if you hadn't experienced the full history beforehand.

Take episode 1 of Beyond for instance. The scene where Bruce nearly fires a gun and drops it in horror has way more of an impact if you've watched TAS and know how much he hates guns and what he stands for. Sure it might be aluded to later in Beyond, but by then that powerful moment has passed.

Z also has enough flashbacks and talk of the past to know what's going on and follow the plot on a basic level. You can watch it first, but similar to Batman you need the full history to get the full emotional payoff from it.

Both Z and Beyond are only different to their predecessors on a superficial level, the heart and core of both shows remains the same. Everything in DB and Z was set in motion by Goku meeting Bulma, and everything in Batman/Beyond was set in motion by the murder of Bruce's parents.

And while Terry might be the lead, Bruce is living vicariously through him.

[MasenkoHA]

.

Z also has enough flashbacks and talk of the past to know what's going on and follow the plot on a basic level. You can watch it first, but similar to Batman you need the full history to get the full emotional payoff from it.

Both Z and Beyond are only different to their predecessors on a superficial level, the heart and core of both shows remains the same. Everything in DB and Z was set in motion by Goku meeting Bulma, and everything in Batman/Beyond was set in motion by the murder of Bruce's parents.

But nothing you’re saying actually requires you to watch BTAS. Just a basic understanding of Batman as a character (and not even specifically the TAS version) most people know Batman is against guns because it killed his parents thanks to basic pop culture osmosis

[90sDBZ]

.

Z also has enough flashbacks and talk of the past to know what's going on and follow the plot on a basic level. You can watch it first, but similar to Batman you need the full history to get the full emotional payoff from it.

Both Z and Beyond are only different to their predecessors on a superficial level, the heart and core of both shows remains the same. Everything in DB and Z was set in motion by Goku meeting Bulma, and everything in Batman/Beyond was set in motion by the murder of Bruce's parents.

But nothing you’re saying actually requires you to watch BTAS. Just a basic understanding of Batman as a character (and not even specifically the TAS version) most people know Batman is against guns because it killed his parents thanks to basic pop culture osmosis

Did you even read my post? I said that while you can "technically" watch Beyond first, you'd be much better off watching TAS first and gave an example as to why (which you conveniently didn't quote). And the same is true for DB/Z.

We're talking about how Beyond works as a standalone so outside sources don't come into play.

[ABED]

But it's just not true. It's not structured the same way. DBZ is just DB. It's a super serialized show that assumes the audience has seen most of the story to that point. No way anyone would start their story like the beginning of DBZ. Beyond absolutely works as a stand alone. The most you need to know is the Batman lore you get through "pop culture osmosis". For those that saw BTAS, there's the added benefit and it's a richer experience, but it's not a prerequisite to understand and enjoy Beyond. DBZ takes a lot for granted and why would anyone start with an world changing twist like "the main character is an alien" before you've properly established who the character is?

The DCAU was written before binging was a thing, so it wasn't super serialized until later. Like most American shows, it was designed so you didn't have to see every episode or even see it from the beginning. I don't know much about Japanese culture, so I don't know why they seemed to be ahead of the curve with serialization in comparison to American shows.

The difference is night and day between the two examples. DBZ picks up not long after DB and it's still about the same main character, the world and the characters aren't in vastly different places than we left them. Batman Beyond takes place in a very different time period and the look and feel of it compared to BTAS are very different, not to mention the main character is a different character and in high school. It makes perfect sense to change up the music to reflect those changes. What changed in DBZ from the end of DB that would require a different score?

[90sDBZ]

But it's just not true. It's not structured the same way. DBZ is just DB. It's a super serialized show that assumes the audience has seen most of the story to that point. No way anyone would start their story like the beginning of DBZ. Beyond absolutely works as a stand alone. The most you need to know is the Batman lore you get through "pop culture osmosis". For those that saw BTAS, there's the added benefit, but it's not a prerequisite to understand and enjoy Beyond. DBZ takes a lot for granted and why would anyone start with an world changing twist like "the main character is an alien" before you've properly established who the character is?

The DCAU was written before binging was a thing, so it wasn't super serialized until later. I don't know much about Japanese culture, so I don't know why they seemed to be ahead of the curve with serialization in comparison to American shows.

You couldn't just rely on pop culture osmosis when the show was airing in 1999 and the internet was a luxury many didn't have. Many young kids wouldn't known Batman's history without watching TAS first. The most recent Batman movie at the time was Batman and Robin which hardly mentions Bruce's hatred of guns.

And I don't know why you're going on about watching DB first being better. I never questioned that and made a point of it in my last post.

[ABED]

But it's just not true. It's not structured the same way. DBZ is just DB. It's a super serialized show that assumes the audience has seen most of the story to that point. No way anyone would start their story like the beginning of DBZ. Beyond absolutely works as a stand alone. The most you need to know is the Batman lore you get through "pop culture osmosis". For those that saw BTAS, there's the added benefit, but it's not a prerequisite to understand and enjoy Beyond. DBZ takes a lot for granted and why would anyone start with an world changing twist like "the main character is an alien" before you've properly established who the character is?

The DCAU was written before binging was a thing, so it wasn't super serialized until later. I don't know much about Japanese culture, so I don't know why they seemed to be ahead of the curve with serialization in comparison to American shows.

You couldn't just rely on pop culture osmosis when the show was airing in 1999 and the internet was a luxury many didn't have. Many young kids wouldn't known Batman's history without watching TAS first. The most recent Batman movie at the time was Batman and Robin which hardly mentions Bruce's hatred of guns.

And I don't know why you're going on about watching DB first being better. I never questioned that and made a point of it in my last post.

Yeah you could. Even then Batman was so ubiquitous, everyone knew Batman's back story. Everyone knows his parents were killed and he trained himself so he could protect his city. They know the characters and the villains. I know because I was there. Beyond was written with that in mind.

I'm bringing up DB being first in relation to your point about Beyond being to BTAS what Z was to DB. A different main character isn't a superficial thing. Terry is a very different character than Bruce. Bruce might be vicariously living through Terry, but the story is told through Terry's POV.

[90sDBZ]

But it's just not true. It's not structured the same way. DBZ is just DB. It's a super serialized show that assumes the audience has seen most of the story to that point. No way anyone would start their story like the beginning of DBZ. Beyond absolutely works as a stand alone. The most you need to know is the Batman lore you get through "pop culture osmosis". For those that saw BTAS, there's the added benefit, but it's not a prerequisite to understand and enjoy Beyond. DBZ takes a lot for granted and why would anyone start with an world changing twist like "the main character is an alien" before you've properly established who the character is?

The DCAU was written before binging was a thing, so it wasn't super serialized until later. I don't know much about Japanese culture, so I don't know why they seemed to be ahead of the curve with serialization in comparison to American shows.

You couldn't just rely on pop culture osmosis when the show was airing in 1999 and the internet was a luxury many didn't have. Many young kids wouldn't known Batman's history without watching TAS first. The most recent Batman movie at the time was Batman and Robin which hardly mentions Bruce's hatred of guns.

And I don't know why you're going on about watching DB first being better. I never questioned that and made a point of it in my last post.

Yeah you could. Even then Batman was so ubiquitous, everyone knew Batman's back story. Everyone knows his parents were killed and he trained himself so he could protect his city. They know the characters and the villains. I know because I was there. Beyond was written with that in mind.

I'm bringing up DB being first in relation to your point about Beyond being to BTAS what Z was to DB.

I don't see how in 1999 absolutely everyone would know Batman's full story and moral code. At the time Batman 89 was still the most successful and well known version of the character among the general public outside of TAS, and Batman 89 had him killing off bad guys left right and centre and using guns on the Batwing.

[ABED]

You couldn't just rely on pop culture osmosis when the show was airing in 1999 and the internet was a luxury many didn't have. Many young kids wouldn't known Batman's history without watching TAS first. The most recent Batman movie at the time was Batman and Robin which hardly mentions Bruce's hatred of guns.

And I don't know why you're going on about watching DB first being better. I never questioned that and made a point of it in my last post.

Yeah you could. Even then Batman was so ubiquitous, everyone knew Batman's back story. Everyone knows his parents were killed and he trained himself so he could protect his city. They know the characters and the villains. I know because I was there. Beyond was written with that in mind.

I'm bringing up DB being first in relation to your point about Beyond being to BTAS what Z was to DB.

I don't see how in 1999 absolutely everyone would know Batman's full story and moral code. At the time Batman 89 was still the most successful and well known version of the character among the general public, and that had him killing off bad guys left right and centre and using guns on the Batwing.

Because Batman was even at that point a massive pop cultural phenomenon. You act like that's something relatively new. He's an icon, even before either of us were born. People knew the basics of Batman before 1989. They didn't know everything, but you don't need to know everything to watch any of the DCAU. They were designed that way. It's also not continuity heavy. There are call backs in Beyond, but the episodes are written to give the audience who may not have seen those episodes the relevant context for the stories to function. You forget, this was an era before streaming. Even kids watching Beyond may not have seen BTAS or just not have seen the episodes with older characters.

Dragon Ball, however, was not. DB is sufficiently simple so that you can understand it deep into the series, but it's very continuity heavy and takes so much as a given and expects the audience to keep up.

[90sDBZ]

Yeah you could. Even then Batman was so ubiquitous, everyone knew Batman's back story. Everyone knows his parents were killed and he trained himself so he could protect his city. They know the characters and the villains. I know because I was there. Beyond was written with that in mind.

I'm bringing up DB being first in relation to your point about Beyond being to BTAS what Z was to DB.

I don't see how in 1999 absolutely everyone would know Batman's full story and moral code. At the time Batman 89 was still the most successful and well known version of the character among the general public, and that had him killing off bad guys left right and centre and using guns on the Batwing.

Because Batman was even at that point a massive pop cultural phenomenon. You act like that's something relatively new. He's an icon, even before either of us were born. People knew the basics of Batman before 1989. They didn't know everything, but you don't need to know everything to watch any of the DCAU. They were designed that way. It's also not continuity heavy. There are call backs in Beyond, but the episodes are written to give the audience who may not have seen those episodes the relevant context for the stories to function. You forget, this was an era before streaming. Even kids watching Beyond may not have seen BTAS or just not have seen the episodes with older characters.

Dragon Ball, however, was not. DB is sufficiently simple so that you can understand it deep into the series, but it's very continuity heavy and takes so much as a given and expects the audience to keep up.

The Batman comics were always popular among comic readers, but the average person who didn't read comics only thought of Adam West as the character for a very long time until Tim Burton/Michael Keaton came along.

[ABED]

You don't need to know all that to watch Beyond and invest in it.

I think we're losing the forest from the trees here.

[MasenkoHA]

We're talking about how Beyond works as a standalone so outside sources don't come into play.

And as a standalone Batman Beyond does not require you to watch Batman TAS. You could come into Beyond with a bare understanding of who Batman is (as any kid in the English Speaking word and most other places outside of that would in 1999 despite your odd claim that Batman wasn’t a pop culture back then the internet didn’t invent pop culture pretty much any kid in 1999 could tell you who Batman is and what his deal is)

But ignore all that Batman TAS and Batman Beyond blatantly take different approaches in aesthetics and tone Old school Superman cartoons vs Akira. 1940s Noir vs late 90s cyberpunk neonoir. The fully orchestrated score would not suit Beyond nor would the techno rock in Beyond suit TAS. Even if you want to argue that somehow a kid would need to watch TAS to understand Beyond that doesn’t really dispute this fact. Dragon Ball Z does not do that. They’re still doing Eastern Wuxia

[ABED]

DBZ is also not a sequel nor does DBZ change whose POV the story is told from, at least not until towards the end. Terry is a teenager in high school, and Bruce is not to say the least. DB and DBZ are told from Goku's POV and doesn't change genres. Maybe the Sci-Fi is a little more pronounced, but sci-fi has always been a part of DB. DB does change main characters towards the end, and the original music does change, but the story never changes genres completely.

[MasenkoHA]

I’d go as far as saying the Sci fi was a lot more pronounced in Z than Dragon Ball but you still had that Mystical Eastern vibe in Z. We’re not talking anywhere near what Funimation tried to do by playing up the Sci-fi aspects of Z.

But even when Toriyama is doing Superman or Terminator the wuxia feel is present.

[8000 Saiyan]

Speak for yourself. I don't see what there is to support this beyond your own personal preference. At the end of the day the vast majority of people who watched that dub still love it to this day. The dub was only "harmful" because you as an individual don't like it, and that has nothing to do with the so called greater good or whether it had a positive ot negative impact on the lives of the masses.

Honestly people act as if the dub destroyed lives. This is why I roll my eyes most of the time when I see someone act as if a fictional movie or show caused real life damage based souly on the fact they didn't like it as an individual. There are obvious exceptions to this such as movies that present certain groups of people in a negative light and have a direct impact on how those people are perceived in the real world. But this is a cartoon about a bunch of guys pummeling the shit out of one another over some magic balls that was altered to feel more heroic. Hell if anything the dub is even less harmful than the original for turning the cast into less selfish role models. I know many dub fans view Goku as a role model, and I've seen comments from people saying Faulconer's SS3 theme inspired them to improve their lives.

And then there's the infamous portrayal of General Blue in the original, which was toned down considerably in the dub for the better.

Well, you do act as if the Westwood dub did the same thing.

I don't believe I've ever gone as far as that in critisizing it. It's definitely not my cup of tea despite growing up on it, and if it didn't exist I wouldn't be shedding any tears. On a personal level that wouldn't bother me. But I'll acknowledge it has a really passionate and dedicated following which is enough to justify its existence. And I will say it got noticebly better at the tail end of the run.

I do recall you once saying that if the Ocean Kai was like the Westwood dub, "then God help us". What I thought you meant by that is that you thought that the Westwood dub was one of the worst things of all time. Sorry if I misunderstood you. And yeah, it did get better by the end.