is piccolo god level in the manga?

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, Goku's statement about 17 doesn't really make much sense.
He cannot feel 17's ki because he has no ki, he can only say that based on that really short fight he had with him in Monster Island, and only SS3 was used. You could argue that Goku felt even SS3 wouldn't have been enough to take on 17, but there is still a long way to go from SS3 to blue or even god level.
At most, I think you could say 17 might give SSG a run for his money, anything above that just doesn't add up, SS3 would've been KO'd, badly damaged or seriously outclassed against that kind of power, and we know 17 wasn't fooling around like Goku was.

And during the ToP, 17 showed nothing remarkable, he couldn't even knock Dyspo out, only wear him out, who only showed to be above SS2 and below blue level.
He seems to be above SS3, probably close to SSG. I doubt Dyspo is god level but I could be overlooking something about him. But they are definitely not on Goku and Vegeta's blue level, so that comment really came out of nowhere.
It sounds more like Goku had watched the anime version of the ToP when he said that about 17

[Cipher]

This has come up before but he has no feats making him SSG and certainly not blue in the manga.

He's triod with piccolo and Gohan (pre kefla) a couple of times, he doesn't beat Dyspo before roshi can beat khersal and Dyspo is blown away by vegeta just going blue.

There's also a power gap between Goku and Vegeta themselves. So I take his statement to mean he's about as strong as the dragon team collectively. Gohan stalemates a fusion and is still said to be weaker than blue Goku.

In the next arc Gohan is explicitly the strongest on earth and I think piccolo is stronger to than 17 but still not blue tier himself.

The Dragon Team (and the team in that arc specifically) also includes Kuririn, Tenshinhan, and Turtle Hermit, so it'd be a little strange for Goku to use "we" in a way that wasn't indicating Vegeta and himself, especially since he's noting how impressed he was with #17.

In the midst of #17's bouts, there's also the scene of #17 wowing Piccolo by simply punching Botamo out of the ring, prompting Piccolo to ask what kind of training he did, so I think the implication all together is that #17 really is up there (as in the anime), but the story just never had room for a scene that showed it off as clearly in action as through dialogue.

Super Saiyan 3 Goku vs. #17 is also cut off prematurely, but Goku's nervous about things escalating further.

He cannot feel 17's ki because he has no ki

Goku just knows things. He has power-scaler senses honed by his years of martial arts.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah, Goku's statement about 17 doesn't really make much sense.
He cannot feel 17's ki because he has no ki, he can only say that based on that really short fight he had with him in Monster Island, and only SS3 was used. You could argue that Goku felt even SS3 wouldn't have been enough to take on 17, but there is still a long way to go from SS3 to blue or even god level.
At most, I think you could say 17 might give SSG a run for his money, anything above that just doesn't add up, SS3 would've been KO'd, badly damaged or seriously outclassed against that kind of power, and we know 17 wasn't fooling around like Goku was.

And during the ToP, 17 showed nothing remarkable, he couldn't even knock Dyspo out, only wear him out, who only showed to be above SS2 and below blue level.
He seems to be above SS3, probably close to SSG. I doubt Dyspo is god level but I could be overlooking something about him. But they are definitely not on Goku and Vegeta's blue level, so that comment really came out of nowhere.
It sounds more like Goku had watched the anime version of the ToP when he said that about 17

Ki sensing is the most common, but not the only way to gauge one's power. He was at least very concerned when #17 prepared a Ki blast to throw on him when they were fighting, so I'd say that makes him somewhat above SSJ3 Goku at least.

#17 vs Dyspo happened mostly off screen, but I think you can pick up the clues to see Dyspo was destroyed. It only lasted a couple off screen panels (fairly short even for Goku standards) but Dyspo admittedly was so "pooped" he couldn't even jump back to the arena, while #17 barely had an scratch on him. He also blocked a punch aimed to knock out Golden Freeza and even pulled his ass back in the arena when Jiren knocked both out.

Dende also says #17 would be very dangerous if he were still evil, which is the seller for me. Idk how he knows that, but I'm not arguing with God

[Koitsukai]

Yeah, Goku's statement about 17 doesn't really make much sense.
He cannot feel 17's ki because he has no ki, he can only say that based on that really short fight he had with him in Monster Island, and only SS3 was used. You could argue that Goku felt even SS3 wouldn't have been enough to take on 17, but there is still a long way to go from SS3 to blue or even god level.
At most, I think you could say 17 might give SSG a run for his money, anything above that just doesn't add up, SS3 would've been KO'd, badly damaged or seriously outclassed against that kind of power, and we know 17 wasn't fooling around like Goku was.

And during the ToP, 17 showed nothing remarkable, he couldn't even knock Dyspo out, only wear him out, who only showed to be above SS2 and below blue level.
He seems to be above SS3, probably close to SSG. I doubt Dyspo is god level but I could be overlooking something about him. But they are definitely not on Goku and Vegeta's blue level, so that comment really came out of nowhere.
It sounds more like Goku had watched the anime version of the ToP when he said that about 17

Ki sensing is the most common, but not the only way to gauge one's power. He was at least very concerned when #17 prepared a Ki blast to throw on him when they were fighting, so I'd say that makes him somewhat above SSJ3 Goku at least.

#17 vs Dyspo happened mostly off screen, but I think you can pick up the clues to see Dyspo was destroyed. It only lasted a couple off screen panels (fairly short even for Goku standards) but Dyspo admittedly was so "pooped" he couldn't even jump back to the arena, while #17 barely had an scratch on him. He also blocked a punch aimed to knock out Golden Freeza and even pulled his ass back in the arena when Jiren knocked both out.

Dende also says #17 would be very dangerous if he were still evil, which is the seller for me. Idk how he knows that, but I'm not arguing with God

While it's true SS3 wasn't all that in control of the fight, Goku was not trying to fight 17, while the android was taking it seriously mainly because he didn't recognize Goku, his reaction I chalk up to seeing 17 was preparing an actual energy attack, not necessarily because he would've been erased by it. I agree he isn't below SS3 and probably had more in his reservoire and it's the reason why Goku has him in such high regard, but to go from that to assume he is blue level just because he can, maybe casually, push SS3 is too much of a stretch for me.

Dyspo's comment varies depending on the translation, some had him say he is depleted after fighting him, he has no major injuries, they both looked equally battered in a previous panel so the implication is that 17 had the edge due to his infinite stamina. He just outlasted Dyspo, like he would've done against Piccolo in Z, and it makes sense considering Dyspo wasn't rung out by 17. If he were blue level as Goku implies with his comment, and we know Dyspo is below that level, 17 would've finished that fight instead of just outlasting him.

I wouldn't put much thought into 17 taking a hit from Jiren or blocking one in a team up, Roshi dodged him, base Goku took one that was meant for Sign Goku and still walked. All these things combined are not enough for me to believe he is as strong as Goku.
I'm not against the idea either, but if that's the case, then they made an awful job trying to convey it, after all, his main fight does happen off-screen, something Toyotaro seemed to enjoy so much during the ToP.

[Tai Lung]

Also combo and synchronicity doesn’t necessarily equate to incredible raw power. In the anime we had a tag team up of Piccolo and Tien. Does that mean Tien = Piccolo? (Admittedly Tien just was a punching bag there)

I guess you are referring to BoG here. That only happened in the anime, and not in the manga or in the movie (when they both attacked Beerus separately). The anime is usually inconsistent when it comes to unbalanced team ups. There was no such case in the manga when someone far weaker was capable of teaming up with someone far stronger (Dyspo and Toppo's failed team up against CSSB Vegeta is the prime example of this).

actually beerus just dodged while throwing random punches which is certainly different from fighting strategically and at the same pace

...Wouldn't it make more sense to consider the action in that one episode the inconsistency than story beats like Trunks being awed by Super Saiyan Blue?

not really the point of that scene is to show that trunks had potential like vegeta and "my bulma" scene

[Krillin1994]

Also combo and synchronicity doesn’t necessarily equate to incredible raw power. In the anime we had a tag team up of Piccolo and Tien. Does that mean Tien = Piccolo? (Admittedly Tien just was a punching bag there)

I guess you are referring to BoG here. That only happened in the anime, and not in the manga or in the movie (when they both attacked Beerus separately). The anime is usually inconsistent when it comes to unbalanced team ups. There was no such case in the manga when someone far weaker was capable of teaming up with someone far stronger (Dyspo and Toppo's failed team up against CSSB Vegeta is the prime example of this).

actually beerus just dodged while throwing random punches which is certainly different from fighting strategically and at the same pace

...Wouldn't it make more sense to consider the action in that one episode the inconsistency than story beats like Trunks being awed by Super Saiyan Blue?

not really the point of that scene is to show that trunks had potential like vegeta and "my bulma" scene

Whoopsy meant to clarify this.


I meant when we saw Goku and Gohan had an friendly spar with Piccolo/Tien though obviously it wasn’t a serious fight.

But I imagine that if you power adjusted the duos then a piccolo/Gohan team up would perform far better than a piccolo/Tien team up.

I’m not saying that the extra synchronicity would let them take on characters in completely different realms of strength but I think their teamwork could elevate them to the level of foes above them.

I’m unsure if Piccolo has entered the realm of gods yet though. It really has been difficult to power scale most Z warriors in super besides Goku/Vegeta solely because of their lack of involvement in a lot of arcs.

His strength in the ToP is hard to gauge because he was caught off guard......hmm come to think of it he was then caught off guard by OG-73. Guess he’s quite the hypocrite for criticising Gohan/Goku for lowering their guard.

Comments from Goku about people getting stronger are again hard to tell if serious or not. Most of the time now it seems like Goku does it in a patronising way, like an adult telling a child look how strong you’re getting.

Then the issue of the Moro arc is we don’t know the extent to which Moro powered up people except for the end point of Sagnbo’s power being blue tier. OG-73 matching piccolos power doesn’t reveal much either. And him using Gohan’s strength was negated by the combo attacks.

Really I think the simplest solution (which will never happen) would be to have piccolo have a friendly spar with Goku. Then they could have goku transition through forms and just go ‘woah you can keep up with my SSG you’ve really improved Piccolo’

[Tai Lung]

I had forgotten this scene, if piccolo exceeds 17 maybe this reaffirms his power

[BWri]

I had forgotten this scene, if piccolo exceeds 17 maybe this reaffirms his power

Spoiler:

Oh yeah, I forgot about this too. I don't know how to read this. On its face, #17 is able to block an attack meant for Frieza which would mean he's on his level, which is how the anime depicts them. In the anime, #17 remarks that Frieza is a monster, indicating that although #17 is in the ballpark of Frieza's power, that Frieza is still much stronger. Perhaps Jiren's sneak attack didn't require much power since he was in Frieza's blindspot.

I also forgot about #17's "self destruct" just after this scene which had enough power to destroy half the tournament arena. This wasn't even #17 using all of his life force and possibly not even all of his energy. It was potent enough for Grand Priest to put up a barrier to mitigate the blowback of the attack. And its a tournament stage that's survived all sorts of attacks without budging. All that to say, if #17 was only SSJ3 tier and had an attack that could cause this much destruction, then it stands to reason that Piccolo could do the same and better with full energy and life energy. Perhaps this is where Toyotaro pulled the idea from when he chose Piccolo to threaten this.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I had forgotten this scene, if piccolo exceeds 17 maybe this reaffirms his power

Come to think of it, is this any different from these two?

Spoiler:

[Tai Lung]

I had forgotten this scene, if piccolo exceeds 17 maybe this reaffirms his power

Come to think of it, is this any different from these two?

Spoiler:

the first attack was aimed at gowasu, weakened trunks and shin while jiren's attack was aimed at golden frieza
kami does not have much difference with piccolo (23) in power

[ZombieVito]

I had forgotten this scene, if piccolo exceeds 17 maybe this reaffirms his power

Come to think of it, is this any different from these two?

Spoiler:

the first attack was aimed at gowasu, weakened trunks and shin while jiren's attack was aimed at golden frieza
kami does not have much difference with piccolo (23) in power

Was it? Seemed Zamasu wasnt aiming in that attack. Just shooting at random.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

the first attack was aimed at gowasu, weakened trunks and shin while jiren's attack was aimed at golden frieza
kami does not have much difference with piccolo (23) in power

Not even close. Right after this Kami says he can't even see Goku and Piccolo moving.

Chapter: 188, P4.5
Context: as Goku and Piccolo move around really fast
God: “I-I can’t see them! Not even with my divine eyes!”

[Tai Lung]

the first attack was aimed at gowasu, weakened trunks and shin while jiren's attack was aimed at golden frieza
kami does not have much difference with piccolo (23) in power

Not even close. Right after this Kami says he can't even see Goku and Piccolo moving.

Chapter: 188, P4.5
Context: as Goku and Piccolo move around really fast
God: “I-I can’t see them! Not even with my divine eyes!”

it's not even twice as strong ...
Krillin with 206 could give Piccolo a fight

[Piccolo_Daima]

Piccolo performed much better than 17 in the Saganbo fight, Piccolo and Gohan were presented as stronger than 17 and 18, since the androids couldn't keep fighting with Saganbo anymore, while Piccolo and Gohan kept fighting and managed to hurt Saganbo, so there's no doubts about it. Piccolo is stronger than 17.

Piccolo and Gohan don’t hurt Saganbo. They have one extra scene after a chapter break in which #17 and #18 are observing, they zip around him, backflip away from a shockwave, fire a combined blast Saganbo walks through, and then get punched to the ground.

That’s the entire scene. It’s dubious they do much better against Saganbo than the androids, but to the extent that they might, reasons for that not being a shoe-in for Piccolo surpassing #17 have been covered throughout the entire thread.

I think it’s okay to say there are doubts about it.

In the absence of anything concrete, I’ll hold to the last established status quo. If and when the story wants to confirm Piccolo is stronger, that’s fine.

I mean, saying Piccolo is weaker than 17, it's like saying Vegeta is weaker than Gohan, of course someone can say Vegeta is weaker than Gohan, but that would be just a moronic statement with no substance to back it up, the same thing happens here with Piccolo and 17.

That is, in fact, not like saying Vegeta is weaker than Gohan, because we have specific dialogue telling us in no uncertain terms that Vegeta is stronger than Gohan.

We didn't have a specific dialogue telling us Vegeta is stronger than Tien, does that man there could be a posibility of Tien being stronger than Vegeta?

[Hugo Boss]

In Tenshinhan vs. Vegeta’s case, we have Tenshinhan losing to Nappa, who lost to Goku, who needed an even greater power to overcome Vegeta. So, in this case a specific dialogue is not required, because we already have subtext.

In Piccolo vs. #17’s case, we have both losing to Saganbo. We don’t have Piccolo beating someone #17 can’t beat.