OG Dragon Ball and why one shouldnt mind if people skip it

[ABED]

Could you guys at least mention the actual point of the thread in that Boo Saga discussion?

I would think the inference was simple to make - the Buu arc has plenty of the humor that people use to criticize DB for, and yet DB's detractors are fine with watching it. It feels like they have no issue with it because there's a Z at the end of the title.

[jjgp1112]

Could you guys at least mention the actual point of the thread in that Boo Saga discussion?

Elements of later Dragon Ball and the execution of said elements in comparison to early Dragon Ball is directly related to the thread topic.

[MyVisionity]

For a story as goofy and crazy as DB, trying to take things so super serious often makes it feel immature and like it's making apologies for what it is. It's one of the reason I've grown less fond of super serious superhero movies. Having lots of humor mixed into a concept as inherently silly as superheroes allows for the more serious and earnest moments to truly land. A great example of the humor accentuating the seriousness is the Ginyu Force. They're goofballs but at times it feels completely hopeless. The contrast works incredibly well. That isn't to say some movies and TV shows with singular grim tones don't work well, but that takes a VERY deft hand.

When did DB ever feel like it was apologizing for what it is? I never once got that impression in the Saiyan, Freeza, or Cell arcs.

A reason that I've come to dislike the phrase "superhero" and "superhero movies" is because people often forget that most superhero movies are actually *comic book movies*. Meaning it's not just some kind of isolated concept, there is a source material and medium that those films are based upon. Just because a concept may be inherently silly does not mean that you turn a story that's not a comedy into a comedy. If the story was originally a comedy, fine, but if not, then there is a problem.

Ginyu works because it strikes the right balance. The problem is when the story *doesn't* strike the right balance. The humor isn't accentuating anything with Super Boo. Gotenks and Vegetto's antics don't contrast anything. It's just all one big joke. It would be one thing if the action made up for it, but the fights are completely uninspired and the story is non-existent.

The rice cooker thing is NOT a throwaway gag. First, it's brought back at least one other time, and two, it's the method of Piccolo's imprisonment. The Piccolo Daimao arc was not during the gag manga portion. It had long since past that part. Arguably the only part that could truly be considered a gag manga is the very first arc.

The humor and gags were still much more overt during Piccolo. It was the Saiyan arc where the humor became more subdued. The point however is that back in Daimao they struck the right balance. Boo has trouble with this. It does things for humor and gags that the 86 series would never do.

[ABED]

When did DB ever feel like it was apologizing for what it is? I never once got that impression in the Saiyan, Freeza, or Cell arcs.

Which was my point. DB doesn't because it has a sense of humor about itself. Sorry about the confusion. I don't edit. I can see where the confusion comes in. It's not a story that apologizes for itself, but there are over the top silly stories that take themselves way too seriously and it comes off as immature and like it's ashamed of what it is.

A reason that I've come to dislike the phrase "superhero" and "superhero movies" is because people often forget that most superhero movies are actually *comic book movies*.

Comics are just a medium. Superheroes are a genre. There are plenty of comics that aren't superhero stories. Superheroes are a silly concept. It's people dressing up in colorful costumes to fight crime and save the world. It's a medium meant for kids. In real life, that sort of thing would be disturbing. Making them fun and funny allows it to be the heroic fantasies we love them for being.

I don't agree about Vegetto. It's short, sweet, and to the point. The humor is both on story (he's trying to piss Buu off so he absorbs him) and shows us how incredibly powerful he is that he can make light of even this Buu who has absorbed everyone.

The humor and gags were still much more overt during Piccolo. It was the Saiyan arc where the humor became more subdued. The point however is that back in Daimao they struck the right balance. Boo has trouble with this. It does things for humor and gags that the 86 series would never do.

Right balance is vague and context dependent. You make it soun like there's some optimal level of humor. And what gags other than the rice cooker are you referring to that's supposedly more overt in the Piccolo arc? The Buu arc's issue isn't the humor. It's that it's entirely too long and simultaneously feels like it plows through story. It's an oddity. And yet despite all the goofiness, fans have zero issues watching it because it has some transformations and a Z at the end of the title.

[Majin Buu]

The humor isn't accentuating anything with Super Boo. Gotenks and Vegetto's antics don't contrast anything. It's just all one big joke. It would be one thing if the action made up for it, but the fights are completely uninspired and the story is non-existent.

Keep in mind that Gotenks vs. Super Buu comes off of an act of genocide on Super Buu's part, which followed the drama with Fat Buu, Mr.Satan, and Bee that led to Super Buu's creation.

The fight being comedic provides some levity after the stretch of drama we just finished. It does serve a purpose (whether you think it serves that purpose well or not is a different question).

[Zephyr]

For me, DB as a whole is a fundamentally comedic work, with more serious bits nestled in, and used ultimately in service of being funny. Even when it's most directly trying to sell itself as dire (Saiyan-Cell), shit still usually makes me laugh. So the Boo arc's 'tonal whiplash' never bothered me, and indeed feels more like DB's truer nature coming home to roost as the story reaches its ending. In that sense (and to tie into the title of this thread that has pretty much run its course), skipping the earlier comedic portion of the story may cause the Boo arc to come across as extremely out of place, because it's not going to hit you like the tonal bookend of sorts that it is.

[Anonymous Friend]

Cool Story Bro.

It is a cool story. Thank you.


Dragon Ball as a whole has always had serious stuff. Like, the Red Ribbon stuff had it's moments. Tien's heel-face turn. Krillin's first death at the end of the 2nd Tourney was exspecially serious, even more so when the dragon was destroyed and the hope of revival was removed.

I think our contention comes down to the reason why people are unwilling to give it a try. If you just don't want to commit to 153 episodes, that's fine. That's about 50 hours worth of time. That's about a month at two hours a day.

If any of your excuses boil down to "It's not good", dems be fightin words.

[MyVisionity]

The Buu arc's issue isn't the humor. It's that it's entirely too long and simultaneously feels like it plows through story.

It could have been a little bit shorter maybe, but I don't think that the length or the pacing were particularly problematic. It makes sense that the final saga would be longer than anything else before, given the stakes and for dramatic impact. The real problem was with the plotting and characters. The story feels like it doesn't know where it's going half of the time, nor what to do with many of the cast.

If you just don't want to commit to 153 episodes, that's fine. That's about 50 hours worth of time. That's about a month at two hours a day.

No one has to commit to that many episodes in the first place. Just a few episodes to start with and see how they like it. It's up to them if they continue or not. Not everything should be approached or decided upon by converting to hours and days and months.

[ABED]

Just because a story is ending, doesn't mean it should be longer. Plenty of final seasons are shorter, often because the writers want to craft something lean and mean. The Buu arc drags and it's not a great final impression.

DB benefitted from keeping most of its arcs shorter.

[MyVisionity]

Just because a story is ending, doesn't mean it should be longer. Plenty of final seasons are shorter, often because the writers want to craft something lean and mean. The Buu arc drags and it's not a great final impression.

DB benefitted from keeping most of its arcs shorter.

Less is more, but more is also more. The lean approach is one of many ways to do a final arc. There is also the lengthy approach. It all depends on what kind of series it is and what kind of story you're trying to tell.

Freeza Saga was 72 episodes, Cell Saga was 77 episodes, and Majin Boo Saga was 92. So Boo was longer, but most of the Z-sagas were relatively lengthy. I wonder if DB could have even continued forwards with shorter arcs like in the original show. Not that it necessarily required longer arcs to move forward, but maybe Toriyama just locked himself into a certain pattern as an author that he was unable to ever break away from.

[ABED]

But no single arc needed to be the length of nearly 5 seasons of a network TV show. 100 used to be the magic number for syndication. And the Buu arc by itself was almost enough to get them to that point. The longer the story the better the payoff needs to be to make it all feel worth it. The Buu arc's payoff doesn't feel worth the length. I'm glad Super by and large kept the arcs much smaller.

[capsulecorp]

It doesn't make any sense to study or justify the number of episodes in the anime, especially not for the Buu arc. We know the latter stories are padded out with excessive filler and repetition in order to buy time for new issues of the manga to be written. That's not pacing, it's commerce.

[dva_raza]

If your intention was to piss me off to the point of me risking being banned from here I guess you succeeded ABED, cause I don’t even care about trying to be diplomatic at this point.

You are a complete nut job.

The CONVERSATION IS LITERALLY THERE, but you take advantage of the fact that NOBODY is willing to go through it! hell, they can’t even go through one post because it happens to be long.

You spewed a lie, I pointed it out on friday, and your response to that is… to go HARDER with it for the next few days and basically spam the board with this incessant and disgusting, COMPLETELY false narrative about me?

I have absolutely no idea how to even begin to defend myself when nobody gives a fuck about actually reading the facts and seem to be perfectly fine with just parrot what someone said, even if that means defaming another person.

If this is something that’s considered to be acceptable here then Metamoss is right and I want nothing do to with this place.

I really planned to ignore you, but, yeah..no. It’s impossible for me to sit and watch this smear campain come through and just say nothing about it.

I’ve asked before, and I ask AGAIN, to ANYONE, quote anything I said that was either:
A critique, a false assumption or the indication that the series separation are my motive for my desinterest in them.

If you are not willing to do that, and you contribute your opinion on that matter without even caring to read anything about it and simply echo what he said, what you’re doing is as disgusting as what ABED is doing.



Abed, everytime you have said these phrases: “stop saying they are fundamentally different” , “nobody is telling you to like it, just stop making the series to be something they are not”, it's like me standing in front of you in a crowded room and saying “stop hitting those children! Nobody is forcing you to like them, but you don’t have to be violent with them!”

This is exactly what you’re doing, you keep making a public affirmation of something that never happend, and despite me trying to set record straight, twice, you persistently and aggressively SPAM over it with the same exact lies and whats frightening is just how easily you’ve gotten away with it. Because apparently nobody actually wants to find out if what you’re saying is even true, even when it’s only a click away!


With the original conversation being there. And after I have said, SEVERAL times now, that NOTHING I ever said was either a lie, a critique, or assumtion about anything, and that the series being separate is COMPLETELY irrelevant to me, unless you don’t know how to read, there is no reason for you to keep saying these lies. And the fact that you have continued to do so, is defamation.

You casting my saying that I was drawn to the adult Goku from the first I saw of him, and wasn’t drawn to Goku as a kid from countless scenes I saw of him, as me “spreading lies about Dragon Ball” , is you spreading lies about me.
I said before and I say again, I never went into any sort of analytical conversation. Saying “i’m not interested” in something is not spreading false claims about it

You also went as far as to say whatever feeling a character transmits to me, is “dishonest” (the same thing you said about my favorite fight, that it’s “disingenuous”).

The same thing you do with the comedy. You have INSISTED almost harrasingly that I MUST like it in Dragon Ball if I like it in Super, when I’m outright telling you = i did not.
I repeat, I saw minutes of Super, I liked. I saw MANY humorous scenes from Dragon Ball – i did not like.
There is no need for you to push a projection, that I have to AGREE with, that the comedy in both are the same when it’s not, simply based on my reaction from what I literally saw. You are pushing down my throat something that is only your opinion and I have no right to disagree because then you would procede to say I “said false claims about dragon ball”. This is no less that intimidation and I’m done with this shit.

I sucked up to all of this in the previous thread and was trying to be cool about it but the fact that you have gone out of your way, for what’s been WEEKS, even after my latest post, to agressively continue saying these phrases about me “making false claims” when I did not make ANY false claim about literally anything is just really abuse at this point and anybody who is REMOTELY echoing, supporting or dismissing as if it was some sort of joke, you are contributing to it

Wow, just wow.

I'm nonplussed. What the hell just happened?

Long story short folks, like what you want, start where you want (even though I don't know why someone wouldn't want to see the beginning if they know they like where it goes), but at the very least understand that if you reductively claim the stories are something other than what they are, that is where people are gonna take issue.

Amen.

This.
This is exactly what I meant with what I said days ago:

You think it’s no big deal to just say that in this way and literally incite whomever doesn’t have the context, to think that someone (and there’s only one person here apparently) who didn’t watch DB, was being careless with his words and criticizing it, except...that did not happen?
What you are doing IS in fact spreading false claims about another user and it’s sickening.

You got here somone saying “Amen” to an affirmation you’re making, about something that never happened.
Despite the conversation being right there, and despite me trying to recount it specifically, people don’t care about that.
I’ll say it as many times as I can -
That is not a thing that EVER happend.
That is a thing you made up.
I never “reductively claimed” that the series are “something other than they are”, and for you continue to spew THIS, or ANY derivative of this, is, as I said, literal defamation.
There absolutely no reason for you to keep making these affirmations when it’s not something that ever happened and when I have reaffirmed that it never happened as many times as I have by now.

You think this doesn’t matter? It does! I’m being cast as something I’m not and I can’t think of anything more revolting than people thinking that I was speaking about something I don’t know when that’s not I thing that I ever do.
Not because I’m not here 24/7 like you means that I am fine with you completely destroying my experience and reputation as a user here.


For someone to make a comment like this

your strongest reason for this is an arbitrary split that Toei created for marketing and scamming purposes.

RIGHT AFTER I said this:

Never, at any point in the coversation, did I say or made the implication, that me seeing the series as two separate things is the reason for which I’m not interested in Dragon Ball.

I said I don’t like it because I don’t like what I see. Whether they are separate or not is irrelevant.

But again, I – never - said anything about my reason for being desintrested having to do with a preconception.

And again. This is irrelevant for me and the only reason this was being discussed is cause you iniciated it.

There is NO excuse for this.
Dude. If you don’t care enough to read, that’s perfectly fine, what I have a problem with is you actually posting an affirmation about something that didn’t happened, and that has been debunked not only several times in my first post but also once in the very same post that you are replying to!!
You’re contributing in obscuring what I am trying (desperately at this point) to bring to light.
And you keep that confusion growing further.
Seriously, what is wrong with you all?
I don’t expect you to read anything that wasn’t addressed at you.
But if you want to comment about the subject matter, then how can you possibly want to do that without even so much as trying to read what was said?

You all are taking it so lightly to just echo a random lie about someone like if it was nothing!

And ironically you’re doing exactly that of what you are erroneosly accusing me of, which is “making out something to be something that it isn't.” except you are doing it with a person not a tv show.

Why even bring that up if the reason you don't want to go back further is it doesn't have the characters or action you prefer?

This! This is..fucking MADNESS!
How can you be saying outright direct lies like this?!!!

You KNOW you are the one who brought it up, and keeps bringing it up. You KNOW I have said several times that that is irrelevant.

Which part of all of THIS wasn’t clear enough?!

This is really important to clarify.
NOBODY “characterized“ anything until you did. This is : A STRAWMAN you made out of nothing.
Never, at any point in the coversation, did I say or made the implication, that me seeing the series as two separate things is the reason for which I’m not interested in Dragon Ball.

I said I don’t like it because I don’t like what I see. Whether they are separate or not is irrelevant.
I don’t need to know whether the series are characterized as separate or not to be able to tell I am liking what I’m seeing or not liking what I’m seeing. I’ve said a thousand times that simply nothing I saw about Dragon Ball I found: interesting, entertaining or intriguing enough for me to want to see more. You can’t grasp that notion and therefore you “characterize” my disinterest as something other than what it actually is

Disagreement isn't treating people poorly

No ABED! disagreement isn’t treating people poorly. Making up, and spreading lies about them is treating people poorly!
‘Disagreement’ was how the conversation started at the point in which it was still respectful. What you started doing after is smearing and what you are doing now is shamelessly pushing a lie and defaming me with it, out of spite.

What you are doing is disgusting, and your gaslighting is ABSOLUTELY pathetic.

I think we need to do a better job of trying to understand each other especially in disagreement.

… you’ve kept saying things that are EXACTLY the opposite of what I’ve said, you’ve ignored everytime I have repeated that the series separation is irrelavant and just keep pushing incessantly the narrative that IT IS, you tear down my personal opinions saying “you liking this fight / character is disingenuous” . And at the same time you have the GALL to say THAT?

This level of sleezy dishonesty is revolting. It’s psychopathic.

but this isn't a case of just coming to discuss it on the internet. They joined a fan community page, and one whose emphasis is on the original.

This IS a case of just coming to discuss it on the internet. This is the internet, I saw interesting questions, I joined to discuss specific things. I don’t know or really care what it’s emphasized on, I know and care about what I SEE on the board and I saw things of interest otherwise I would not be here? It really isn’t that complicated, and I’ve had a GREAT experience here, mind you.

If you were honestly just curious about this, why not simply go through the first topics I made, or my most discussed topic instead of theorizing “what POSSIBLE things someone who didn’t see the OG could be doing here?!” (as if it was inexplicable for someone to have things to talk about Z and Super?)
Because it’s not that. You’re not honestly curious. And you are not speaking in general terms.
This is part you, for weeks, digging compulsively and criticizing me on this thread on false basis. These aren’t questions, they are questionings, cross-examinations of another user’s interests and motives not just for the series, but being here, for whats been pages and pages of two different threads now and it’s just not appropriate any more. Again, you could simply check for yourself ,but you want to externalize it to get some sort of reassurance from others about whatever weird conflict you have with me not liking DB, I kinda indulged you in the first conversation but you have no right to continue to indirectly talk down at me and incite other people to casually echo that. I dont know where you got the idea that you have any right to treat anybody like this. It’s toxic, personal and disrespectful. Which I never was, and that’s the reason you had to make up shit and continue to push it, to be able to trash me freely under the pretext that I did something wrong like saying false things about DB when I never did.

You have kept literally abusing points that have been answered what is now, a ludicrous amount of times. Like the 2 following ones. There’s absolutely no WAY AND NO REASON for you to pretend that there is something you are having issue with understanding here, it’s just one of your points you use to claim that I am being careless, superficial or innacurate in my “decision” if you can call it that, to not watch DB and maintain this lie narrative amongst everyone here.

If you don't watch enough of something to get an accurate picture, you're not in a position to accurately evaluate it. Even if you have seen clips they're out of context and you wouldn't be making the argument that judging whether you would like a movie based on a two-minute trailer is the same thing as a few out of context clips of an entire show.

so, ONCE AGAIN,

If you are unable to catch a piece of something on TV or anywhere else and make a choice based on your taste and on basic sense or perception whether that’s something you’d like to see more of, or not, then …alright? But that is not the case for me. I’ve discovered and gotten hooked on countless films and series, as randomly as I got hooked on DBZ and Super (from seeing a moment of it). I liked, so kept watching and never regretted it. - I was NOT hooked on DB from any of many many scenes that I saw of it along the years. Simple.

What all this means is: i don’t give a fuck about which “position” you believe that I need.
I AM PERFECTLY ABLE TO SENSE IF I CARE TO WATCH MORE OF SOMETHING - OR NOT.
I don’t understand which part of “I saw DBZ and Super for seconds – i was interested to watch more” and “I saw DB on many ocasions – was never interested to watch more”, you are not understanding?
I don’t care how much you believe I need to see. DB gets exactly the same chance anything else gets. If I was hooked immediately on anything else from minutes and simply wasn’t on Dragon Ball I don’t know what is it that is not coming through to you about the fact that I do not to see more that what I have to know I am not interested.
I don’t need to see more to “evaluate” that I am not interested in something.
Because I also repeat: I know what interests me and what doesn’t and I’m always accurate with it. And everytime I’ve given “chances” (recomendations of others) I’ve regretted it. I know in my got what is going to be good (FOR ME) and what isn’t going to be good, from WATCHING moments of it.

And no abed, that doesn’t make me “arrogant”. That makes me sensitive, perceptive, having a good eye. Just that. and you don’t need to insult me because you have some weird issue with that.
Let alone to keep insistingthat YOU KNOW better than myself if I am interested in something or not.

in order to speak on something or understand it you have to have seen it and more than random clips

Which is why I never spoke about it nor cared to ‘understand’ it.

I said I didn’t like the things that I saw.
Saying ‘I saw this and I'm not interested’ isn’t speaking about it.
You pushing -‘but it’s all the same of what you DO like’ and me responding ‘no it doesn’t. This or that is literally different/absent”, that is also not ‘speaking about it’.

I am not interested in speaking or “understanding” something that I genuinely do not give a fuck about and I never did so.
I told you I’m not watching it cause I didn’t like what I see. That is it. Get over it. stop digging and twisting. Stop making these nonsensical affirmations that contradict anything I actually said or did. I did not SPEAK about something I don’t know. The conversation is there. Go read it and process it , if you really care about this “understanding each other” thing, instead of continuing this harrasment. Cause take no mistake that this is what you are doing, you’re intimidating someone inside of a community by continuing to make several posts with complete lies about him.

So again,

STOP IT.

I don’t know how I can be any clearer.

If they made a claim to that effect earlier on in the conversation, now they're certainly trying to get you to understand that they don't see it that way.

I never made that claim earlier in the conversation. That never happend. The conversation is there.

It was brought up by ABED, and then twisted to make it look that it’s my motive despite me saying consistently that it’s irrelevant, he , and others, quite literally ignore that and very casually continue to claim the opposite.

I ain't reading all that, I'm happy for you though or sorry that happened.

More seriously,

Oh ”more seriously” ? The part you mentioned first IS the serious one, whoever you are.
And you don’t have to read it actually, it’s not directed at you. But you also don’t need to make fun of something that’s not funny in the least.
Doing it through a sarcastic passive agressive ‘sneak’ comment doesn’t make you any less of a bully

After reading the debate, Some wrote so much that they could have watched an entire DB arc in the meanwhile![/b]

No. I 100% could NOT have watched an entire DB arc, since that aint something I want to do.
What I do want to do is to clarify all the lies being spread about me and that’s something of larger importance to me.
The fact that some of you are mocking that like there was something funny or silly about it is disturbing.
Yes! My post was very long, and there’s nothing from it that I would’ve left out. This isn’t a “debate” for me.
I had to go through everything that has been twisted and at least try to clear it up, and I rather do it in ONE LONG POST than to spam the thread for several pages with an argument I’m not interested in having.

not wanting to watch OG DB is not the unforgiveable sin people make it out to be

So you’re wrong apparently. At least from majority of comments here. It’s not only unforgivable, it’s not even considerable.

You can tell in depth every aspect you’re passionate about from Z and Super and how complete of an experience it is for you but it’s not even up for consideration. It’s just ignored and theorized over with the narrative:
if you’re only interested in the series parting from Z, that HAS to mean you just want to see “planets going boom” as Koitsukai wonderfully expressed.
Yeah, cause that is DEFINITELY what my posts are about. Saiyans, flashy fights, powerlevels. Oh wait. Except they aren’t. Not a single one.

[VegettoEX]

Account strikes and bans issued as appropriate.

Let's consider that we're eight pages into discussing whether or not someone else should do something on their own time. There are valid points to make, but they were all made six or seven pages ago.