Does anyone else think that Vegeta joining the Dragon team was ridiculous in retrospect?

[jjgp1112]

Right, we're diverting from the topic here.
Toriyama isn't all that subtle when he wants to indicate a character acting different is an intended character mistake.
"What? But I thought they knew about Cell!"
"What? But I thought my son liked fighting, just like me!"
"What? Marriage? I thought that was food!"

None of the many ways the characters act different or illogical during the Cell Saga are explained or justified by the story, it just happens without rhyme or reason. I don't buy any of that was some grand master characterization done by Toriyama, I find it much easier to buy he was just winging it and didn't plan things well in advance. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had excellent characterization such as "Yamcha is a cheater, because he is, deal with it!"

But moving back to the original point:

Vegeta isn't the "Please, kill Freeza for me, for he made me evil :'(" character he is in the dub, he's just as much of a murderous psychopath as Freeza in the original.

"He has nowhere to go." So what?
"The main obstacle of his life is gone." And?
"He won't bother you if you don't bother him." And that's just plainly untrue, given how much he has an entire speech talking about how much he enjoyed genociding planets and killing innocent Namekians.

Vegeta is well consistently portrayed in Namek as willing to murder the Earthlings and wanting to acquire immortality to rule the universe. No, none of this is an invention of the anime, it comes straight out of Vegeta's mouth. "After I wish for immortality and defeat Freeza, I will destroy the Earth and put the entire universe under my rule!"

I think you're the missing the forest for the trees because you are literally reiterating what I've been saying. All of the fuckery Vegeta caused that you just listed was all driven by a motive. That has been my point the entire time! I'm not exonerating Vegeta of his evil, I'm just trying to point out how functioning psychopaths work. As we end up seeing, he can behave himself when he has no motive - but because he has the pathology of a violent maniac who doesn't value life, he will do horrible when he has a motive. And it just so happens that his motivation post Frieza gives him no reason to start shit with everyone else. Is all this stuff spelled out explicitly? No, but goddamn is it asking too much to look at the events as it is and draw your own conclusions based on how actual people operate?

Yes, Vegetas plan is to kill Goku - but these are martial artists! They place their bets in their strength 11 times out of 10. They're a bunch of meatheads, they've been this way the entire series; so duh, of course their reaction to a guy who explicitly intends to kill their buddy is just "Good luck with that, bucko." By that point, Vegeta's beef with Goku is no longer about Dragon Balls, or immortality, or conquering worlds, it's dumb macho "Whos the best?" shit. On the scale at which Dragon Ball characters fight and how willy nilly they sre about consequences, this is basically locker room talk.

[AliTheZombie13]

I would be inclined to agree with you if we didn't have interviews where Toriyama admits Vegeta was initially supposed to be a full-blown amoral villain who was going to be killed off at the end of the Saiyan and then later Namek arcs, but was only saved because he got too popular and Toriyama was scared of upsetting the readers.

His transition from amoral full-blown villain into good guy was done shoddily, I'm afraid to tell you.

"Just look at the events and drawn your own conclusions based on how actual people operate." I looked at them, and they make no sense, sorry. A story isn't real life. A good writer would've explored Vegeta's psyche and reflected that into the story if the treatment of his psychopathy was meant to be relevant to it. But that's not what happens in Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball isn't Silent Hill where the writers are constantly taking into account the psyche of the characters and how that reflects on their actions, the story and the universe they inhabit. It's a simple "Dude punches dude" story meant for little kids. Vegeta was meant to be bad bad, but fans took a liking to him, now he's bad good. It's as simple as that.

I doubt that Toriyama even for a second considered how actual psychopaths in real life operate when writing Vegeta or the Dragon Team's reaction to his actions. I'm sorry, but I can't help but feel everything you just said is head-canon to justify a haphazard inclusion that was never meant to happen.

And before somebody can tell me: I'm not opposed to bringing him back and integrating him into the main cast. Hiei from Yu Yu Hakusho, Johnny Lawrence from The Karate Kid and many other characters in media have also sufferfed from the "Villain got too popular, now we gotta redeem them into the main cast" treatment. Piccolo himself is one of these. I don't have a problem with those. The problem with Vegeta's inclusion and redemption is that it was a good idea that was ultimately executed like shit.

[MasenkoHA]

None of the many ways the characters act different or illogical during the Cell Saga are explained or justified by the story, it just happens without rhyme or reason. I don't buy any of that was some grand master characterization done by Toriyama, I find it much easier to buy he was just winging it and didn't plan things well in advance.

Ehhh other than Gohan needing to relearn his lesson from the Saiyan arc I don't really think any of the character act in a way that is inconsisent or illogical in the Cell saga

Otherwise, we wouldn't have had excellent characterization such as "Yamcha is a cheater, because he is, deal with it!"

Future Trunks said this and his source would be Bulma. I wouldn't buy her as a credible source. To her Yamucha cheating would be girls at his baseball game asking for his autograph.

"He has nowhere to go." So what?
"The main obstacle of his life is gone." And?
"He won't bother you if you don't bother him." And that's just plainly untrue, given how much he has an entire speech talking about how much he enjoyed genociding planets and killing innocent Namekians.

Vegeta is well consistently portrayed in Namek as willing to murder the Earthlings and wanting to acquire immortality to rule the universe. No, none of this is an invention of the anime, it comes straight out of Vegeta's mouth. "After I wish for immortality and defeat Freeza, I will destroy the Earth and put the entire universe under my rule!"

The "Freeza retcon" impacted nothing about his original motivation, he still quite clearly says long after Freeza is introduced that he still wants immortality to rule the universe. Their alliance against Freeza was only meant to be temporary. As soon as they were done, they were going to go back at each other's throats, which... doesn't happen for reasons the story doesn't bother to explain.

Vegeta suddenly starts acting completely different from every single thing he ever said during Namek, to the point the anime staff diverged from the canon quite drastically one episode before the arc ended. That wasn't the anime staff jumping the gun or mischaracterizing Vegeta, it was them following what was logical given everything Vegeta was presented as.

It made a lot more sense than Vegeta forgoing his quest for immortality, his quest for ruling the universe, his quest for killing the Earthlings, and for everyone else to just let him stay there and get away with bullshit. That Bulma aids him in "waiting for Goku so I can kill him myself" is equally asinine.

While this is all true these are also characters who aren't known for being proactive.

Goku doesn't try to dismantle the Red Ribbon Army until he needs their dragon balls despite knowing how evil they are

To Zephyr's earlier point about Piccolo at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai it was pretty reckless of Goku to give Piccolo a senzu. Yes they weren't going to kill him because that would kill God, but he was knocked out. Nothing was stopping them from sealing him away and keeping the Daimao in a bottle up in the Heavenly Realm. Goku did tell Gohan new Piccolo wasn't as bad as the old one but that seemed more of a hunch than anything at that point.


Vegeta is an evil genocidal bastard but he's not trying to kill us NOW so we're treat him with contempt but not try to stop him is pretty on par with these guys.

I know the actual reason: Because Toriyama decided to pair the two for the next arc, but narratively, it makes no sense and the story doesn't bother to explain how they went from hating and wanting each other dead, to suddenly finding each other attractive.

Romance has always been a weak spot for Toriyama and he's fully admitted it. This is why Goku and Chi Chi's entire marriage is a joke, why Toriyama relied on the 7 year gap for readers to fill in the blanks as to how 18 fell for Krillin, and why Bulma and Vegeta hooking up is rendered as "well they just did". I don't think too many people are in denial that Bulma x Vegeta happened because Toriyama really wanted to do Vegeta's Super Saiyan son from the future and Bulma was the only breedable female around and had the whole scientist angle as a means to let a time travel story take place

I don't buy that Bulma is attracted to Vegeta (not because she's a strong moral character again she slobbered all over a Nazi until he told her he was gay) and I don't buy that Vegeta would put it in Bulma (the Saiyans seem pretty damn asexual who only see sex as a means to procreate and Vegeta already made it clear to Nappa he had no interest in breeding a Saiyan/Earthling hybrid that could become stronger than him) but I do enjoy Future Trunks as a character and the Cell saga as a whole that I'm just sort of *shrug* whatever. Let's just say Bulma and Vegeta got really drunk one night.

[AliTheZombie13]

but I do enjoy Future Trunks as a character and the Cell saga as a whole that I'm just sort of *shrug* whatever. Let's just say Bulma and Vegeta got really drunk one night.

I guess at the end of the day, this is my problem with Vegeta's inclusion.
Like, I'm not above going "*shrug* whatever, it's a kids show, I'll just try to enjoy it" while watching things like Power Rangers, which is infinitely written worse than Dragon Ball, and I can still watch and enjoy it for what it is without complaining.

I do however have a problem with Vegeta actively sabotaging things starting from that point of the story and the characters' utter inaction and acceptance of his sabotage. Maybe if the Cell and Boo arcs had played a bit differently and Vegeta wasn't this, "I'mma do the Vegeta thing and set the heroes back 30 episodes lol", I would find his inclusion more palatable.

[tonysoprano300]

None of the many ways the characters act different or illogical during the Cell Saga are explained or justified by the story, it just happens without rhyme or reason. I don't buy any of that was some grand master characterization done by Toriyama, I find it much easier to buy he was just winging it and didn't plan things well in advance.

Ehhh other than Gohan needing to relearn his lesson from the Saiyan arc I don't really think any of the character act in a way that is inconsisent or illogical in the Cell saga

Otherwise, we wouldn't have had excellent characterization such as "Yamcha is a cheater, because he is, deal with it!"

Future Trunks said this and his source would be Bulma. I wouldn't buy her as a credible source. To her Yamucha cheating would be girls at his baseball game asking for his autograph.

"He has nowhere to go." So what?
"The main obstacle of his life is gone." And?
"He won't bother you if you don't bother him." And that's just plainly untrue, given how much he has an entire speech talking about how much he enjoyed genociding planets and killing innocent Namekians.

Vegeta is well consistently portrayed in Namek as willing to murder the Earthlings and wanting to acquire immortality to rule the universe. No, none of this is an invention of the anime, it comes straight out of Vegeta's mouth. "After I wish for immortality and defeat Freeza, I will destroy the Earth and put the entire universe under my rule!"

The "Freeza retcon" impacted nothing about his original motivation, he still quite clearly says long after Freeza is introduced that he still wants immortality to rule the universe. Their alliance against Freeza was only meant to be temporary. As soon as they were done, they were going to go back at each other's throats, which... doesn't happen for reasons the story doesn't bother to explain.

Vegeta suddenly starts acting completely different from every single thing he ever said during Namek, to the point the anime staff diverged from the canon quite drastically one episode before the arc ended. That wasn't the anime staff jumping the gun or mischaracterizing Vegeta, it was them following what was logical given everything Vegeta was presented as.

It made a lot more sense than Vegeta forgoing his quest for immortality, his quest for ruling the universe, his quest for killing the Earthlings, and for everyone else to just let him stay there and get away with bullshit. That Bulma aids him in "waiting for Goku so I can kill him myself" is equally asinine.

While this is all true these are also characters who aren't known for being proactive.

Goku doesn't try to dismantle the Red Ribbon Army until he needs their dragon balls despite knowing how evil they are

To Zephyr's earlier point about Piccolo at the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai it was pretty reckless of Goku to give Piccolo a senzu. Yes they weren't going to kill him because that would kill God, but he was knocked out. Nothing was stopping them from sealing him away and keeping the Daimao in a bottle up in the Heavenly Realm. Goku did tell Gohan new Piccolo wasn't as bad as the old one but that seemed more of a hunch than anything at that point.


Vegeta is an evil genocidal bastard but he's not trying to kill us NOW so we're treat him with contempt but not try to stop him is pretty on par with these guys.

I know the actual reason: Because Toriyama decided to pair the two for the next arc, but narratively, it makes no sense and the story doesn't bother to explain how they went from hating and wanting each other dead, to suddenly finding each other attractive.

Romance has always been a weak spot for Toriyama and he's fully admitted it. This is why Goku and Chi Chi's entire marriage is a joke, why Toriyama relied on the 7 year gap for readers to fill in the blanks as to how 18 fell for Krillin, and why Bulma and Vegeta hooking up is rendered as "well they just did". I don't think too many people are in denial that Bulma x Vegeta happened because Toriyama really wanted to do Vegeta's Super Saiyan son from the future and Bulma was the only breedable female around and had the whole scientist angle as a means to let a time travel story take place

I don't buy that Bulma is attracted to Vegeta (not because she's a strong moral character again she slobbered all over a Nazi until he told her he was gay) and I don't buy that Vegeta would put it in Bulma (the Saiyans seem pretty damn asexual who only see sex as a means to procreate and Vegeta already made it clear to Nappa he had no interest in breeding a Saiyan/Earthling hybrid that could become stronger than him) but I do enjoy Future Trunks as a character and the Cell saga as a whole that I'm just sort of *shrug* whatever. Let's just say Bulma and Vegeta got really drunk one night.

I wont make too many excuses, I do think that Goku sparing Piccolo isn’t anywhere near as crazy as him constantly giving Vegeta a pass for being a villainous liability. Piccolo had been reborn differently, AFAIK he wasn’t actively causing problems in the years leading up to the tournament and he actually entered the tournament and abided by its rules. When it was over, he just accepted the L and walked away, causing no trouble in the 5 years leading up to the saiyan arc.

But yea, the 23rd world martial arts tournament depicted Goku in a way that was a bit more selfish than he was ever really shown to be up until that point. Where even master roshi is like “yea Goku doesn’t give a fuck lol” which kind of feels silly given that he just saved the world from Piccolo Daimo and Goku was always the most pure out of the DB cast. Maybe that was just Toriyama speaking through Roshi like a mouth piece

[jjgp1112]

I would be inclined to agree with you if we didn't have interviews where Toriyama admits Vegeta was initially supposed to be a full-blown amoral villain who was going to be killed off at the end of the Saiyan and then later Namek arcs, but was only saved because he got too popular and Toriyama was scared of upsetting the readers.

His transition from amoral full-blown villain into good guy was done shoddily, I'm afraid to tell you.

"Just look at the events and drawn your own conclusions based on how actual people operate." I looked at them, and they make no sense, sorry. A story isn't real life. A good writer would've explored Vegeta's psyche and reflected that into the story if the treatment of his psychopathy was meant to be relevant to it. But that's not what happens in Dragon Ball.

Dragon Ball isn't Silent Hill where the writers are constantly taking into account the psyche of the characters and how that reflects on their actions, the story and the universe they inhabit. It's a simple "Dude punches dude" story meant for little kids. Vegeta was meant to be bad bad, but fans took a liking to him, now he's bad good. It's as simple as that.

I doubt that Toriyama even for a second considered how actual psychopaths in real life operate when writing Vegeta or the Dragon Team's reaction to his actions. I'm sorry, but I can't help but feel everything you just said is head-canon to justify a haphazard inclusion that was never meant to happen.

And before somebody can tell me: I'm not opposed to bringing him back and integrating him into the main cast. Hiei from Yu Yu Hakusho, Johnny Lawrence from The Karate Kid and many other characters in media have also sufferfed from the "Villain got too popular, now we gotta redeem them into the main cast" treatment. Piccolo himself is one of these. I don't have a problem with those. The problem with Vegeta's inclusion and redemption is that it was a good idea that was ultimately executed like shit.

None of this stuff is really head canon, it's just always seemed pretty easy for me to grasp once I reached a point where I realized how malleable most people are, and taking in the details that we see and adding them up makes it pretty easy to draw conclusions of a character. We know that Vegeta is evil and will kill anyone that gets in his way. We also know that he can chill when he has no goal in his mind. Therefore we can conclude that he's your standard bad person and not a cartoon supervillian that does bad things for the lolz. As it weird as it is to say, most Dragon Ball character actually operate like regular people. It probably sounds like I'm thinking really hard at this because I'm bad at explaining myself and like to ramble.

Toriyama wasn't putting any deep thought into shit, he just wrote characters that aren't one dimensional.

On it's face, it's pretty easy to see just in plain text how Vegeta's motivations can shift - Vegeta's obsessed with pride, has been trying to kill Frieza all his life and take his place as ruler of the universe, as is his birth right. But then this low-class Saiyan kicks his ass and shatters his world view, AND might be the Super Saiyan. And then when he thinks he's strong enough to finally beat Frieza, the guy who manipulated him and wiped out his race, he gets humiliated. When faced with his failure and helplessness, he cries, is beaten summarily, and is left to beg to the low-class Saiyan to defeat him before he dies. And then he comes back to life, and his entire purpose up to that point is gone. Kakarot, the low-class clown is the Super Saiyan who conquered Frieza and avenged the Saiyans, and Vegeta, the prince of all Saiyans, is not. All he has left is the fresh scars of his total humiliation.

While he never says it, I think it's pretty reasonable to say that his self-worth at this point is so low that taking over the universe is now at the bottom of his priorities. This isn't something that's explicitly explored in the manga, but at least in my opinion when you look at how we get from point A to point B, and all the details, it's a pretty easy inference to make and evidently most people were able to make sense of it whether they consciously thought of it or not. It adds up. Toei took a different route with their filler and it's easy to see why, but it's also easy to see the logic of the route that Toriyama went.

The end result is Vegeta being more three dimensional and somewhat relatable than just "Me must destroy" and probably why he resonates with both meatheads and fangirls.

[jjgp1112]

None of the many ways the characters act different or illogical during the Cell Saga are explained or justified by the story, it just happens without rhyme or reason. I don't buy any of that was some grand master characterization done by Toriyama, I find it much easier to buy he was just winging it and didn't plan things well in advance. Otherwise, we wouldn't have had excellent characterization such as "Yamcha is a cheater, because he is, deal with it!"

Almost every mistake in the Cell saga is not only perfectly in character for everybody, but there's actally a lot of evidence that Toriyama actually DID consider these things and plan them out.

Krillin destroying the controller? Well, him being a hopeless romantic has been a running gag since he was a kid, and the dilemma of 18 being a hot piece of ass comes up from literally the moment Trunks first describes her and he's like, "A pretty girl?!" After Android 18 kisses him, he wistfully asks Trunks "Hey you think the Androids aren't that bad actually?" and when Trunks asks him "why the fuck are you even asking me this stupid ass shit?" he says "No reason" while flashing back to the kiss. When Bulma first brings up the remote to destroy the Androids, this is how Krillin reacts:



And then on top of that, Krillin is the one that's given the remote and tasked with doing the deed. I'm sorry, but there is no reality where you can convince me Toriyama didn't have Krillin destroying the remote in his mind from the very moment he introduced that plot point.

Cell getting Vegeta to screw things up needs no explanation. We've seen Vegeta and Goku acting this way over and over again to the point where by this point it has been explicitly coded as a Saiyan characteristic. It's so in character that Trunks can only go "Oh for fuck's sake" the moment it starts playing out. I hate to bring TFS into it but, "I know you're playing me, but I'm gonna do it anyway" is literally what's happening here.

Wait a minute. Actually -



"I'll fall for your trap"

Even Vegeta is self-aware enough to see the angle and go "That's bait."

Goku's mistakes with Gohan were explicitly spelled out by Piccolo, and pretty consistent with the series. Gohan's pacifism is weird, but I think you can chalk it up to him being put on the spot and all the pressure being put on him vs. having to act in the moment against Nappa, Recoome, and Frieza. By depending on Gohan getting angry enough to reach a new level of power, Goku is effectively playing the role of a writer trying to force a moment rather than letting it happen organically . Like he might as well have given Gohan a script. It's a very weird position for a 10-year-old to be in, treating him and his volatile emotions like a weapon. And that's why Piccolo calls him out.

And then Gohan's mistakes with Cell - out of character, but that's the whole point. He's blinded by rage and sadism.

In my eyes, the mistakes of the Cell saga weren't sloppy writing and Toriyama trying to force himself out of a corner - if anything, it seems more like Toriyama crafted these scenarios specifically for the Z-Fighters to screw things up. And if it wasn't the case, he sure as hell made it seem like it, which is a testament to how effective it all was.

[AliTheZombie13]

We'll have to agree to disagree then.
I don't believe in applying real-life psychology to character actions in a story unless it's directly invoked by the writer.
That is the same principle I apply to every single story I consume and Dragon Ball doesn't get a pass because "Well, Toriyama is a genius and he knows what he writes and he doesn't write one-dimensional characters!"

Like you yourself said, when Toriyama wants to frame a character action as a legitimate mistake, such as when Goku thinks Gohan wants to fight too or Piccolo doesn't know the Cyborgs aren't in cahoots with Cell or Kuririn wants to destroy the controller because he's in love with #18, Toriyama explicitly frames these as such. So the lack of it when characters do something illogical or nonsensical is jarring and only leads me to think it's a screw-up on his part.

[jjgp1112]

We'll have to agree to disagree then.
I don't believe in applying real-life psychology to character actions in a story unless it's directly invoked by the writer.
That is the same principle I apply to every single story I consume and Dragon Ball doesn't get a pass because "Well, Toriyama is a genius and he knows what he writes and he doesn't write one-dimensional characters!"

Like you yourself said, when Toriyama wants to frame a character action as a legitimate mistake, such as when Goku thinks Gohan wants to fight too or Piccolo doesn't know the Cyborgs aren't in cahoots with Cell or Kuririn wants to destroy the controller because he's in love with #18, Toriyama explicitly frames these as such. So the lack of it when characters do something illogical or nonsensical is jarring and only leads me to think it's a screw-up on his part.

But up until the Buu saga, the nonsense usually is called out, and the other thing you need to factor in is some of these flaws are so lived in that they don't really need attention brought to them - you can see exactly why THIS specific character was put in this position. If anybody is going to invite Vegeta of all people a place to stay, of course it's the vain weirdo and resident thot who will also throw in some light flirting. Of course the gang mostly comprised of formerly terrible people are going to leave another terrible person alone as long as he's not bothering them. You either roll with or you don't at that point.

There's explicit text and subtext, and a lot of subtext exists independent of author intent and a story good enough can make it seem intended even if it's complete accident.

[AliTheZombie13]

Bulma up until that point of the story had shown through her words and actions a few things:

1) She despised Vegeta for being a murderous maniac who killed innocent villages and her boyfriend.
2) She only ogles hot guys. She thought Zarbon was hot, and thought Vegeta was ugly and deserved to die by his hand.
3) Again, the last meaningful interaction she had with Vegeta on Namek was being threatened with death and only barely escaping it.
4) She absolutely hated being on Namek, why is she on Namek? To resurrect her boyfriend, who Vegeta killed.




Now, let me ask you again. How did Bulma go from this:
"I hate you, you ugly Space Hitler. I hope you die!"

To this in the span of a few days, without even seeing Vegeta since then:
"Oh, you want to kill my best friend by your own hand? That's neat! Want to come home, gorgeous? <3"

And no, the fact that Bulma is vain and throws herself at guys, the fact the gang is composed of former bad guys, and the fact they're not usually proactive does not excuse any of this. I'm not that dense, I know all of this, it does not excuse his inclusion in the slightest. It comes completely out of left field and without justification. No amount of text or subtext can explain it, only that Toriyama decided that Vegeta's a good guy now, he wants to pair them both at the last minute and we just gotta roll with all of it.

[GokuHater]

I don't think it's very unrealistic for him to join forces with them in Android arc. It is the enemy of my enemy situation after all.

The problem for me is one panel right before Freeza and Cold come to earth and this one I see nonsensical. Vegeta seems to be living at Capsule Corp for a year, chilling with Tien, Yamaha and Bulma on a grill.

While I believe Vegeta could be there waiting for Goku to return or checking his options, I have a much harder time to believe Yamcha, Bulma and the others would be so open to him and treat him as buddies. Remember, that is right after (in manga it's the same chapter I believe) Bulma invites him to stay for some reason. there is no common enemy to unite against yet. There is no reason to party with a mass murderer. Off course, it's perfectly viable if Vegeta was the most dangerous being on the planet and we need to keep him happy but that's not what the story tells us.

We could make many assumptions on why he is living there like that but it still isn't explained in the story.

The reason why Vegeta is there, is because Toryiama needs him there. The transition though could be a lot smoother. Anime did it a lot better in my opinion.

[ABED]

The reason why Vegeta is there, is because Toryiama needs him there. The transition though could be a lot smoother. Anime did it a lot better in my opinion.

How does he need Vegeta there? Not plot reasons. If Vegeta is waiting for Goku, he can be anywhere on Earth and sense him. Vegeta would likely try to stick around Goku's friends because he wants to know when Goku will be back instead of waiting aimlessly.

[GokuHater]

The reason why Vegeta is there, is because Toryiama needs him there. The transition though could be a lot smoother. Anime did it a lot better in my opinion.

How does he need Vegeta there? Not plot reasons

Um... Trunks?

Literally like someone said already in the thread, he needed "a Vegeta son". And how many women were there in the team to fulfill that role?

[tonysoprano300]

The reason why Vegeta is there, is because Toryiama needs him there. The transition though could be a lot smoother. Anime did it a lot better in my opinion.

How does he need Vegeta there? Not plot reasons

Um... Trunks?

Literally like someone said already in the thread, he needed "a Vegeta son". And how many women were there in the team to fulfill that role?

In some fairness, Vegeta&Bulma never got together during that time frame. It was during the 3 year time skip. If I were to guess, it was drawn to suggest that Vegeta did accept Bulma’s offer reluctantly. Why? No clue. That’s never explained beyond Bulma suggesting that she would have enough food to feed his ridiculous saiyan appetite.

Its still a nonsensical panel, it would be like Piccolo Jr living at Kame house during the 5 year window between the 23rd World Martial Arts tournament and the arrival of Radditz.

[ABED]

Um... Trunks?

Literally like someone said already in the thread, he needed "a Vegeta son". And how many women were there in the team to fulfill that role?

First, a few of you are taking this "because she's not gaga for him, that means she thinks he's ugly" way too seriously. Is it really that difficult to assume that attraction could grow over time. More importantly, they got together during the training, not in the interim period before Goku got home.

it would be like Piccolo Jr living at Kame house during the 5 year window between the 23rd World Martial Arts tournament and the arrival of Radditz.

Piccolo hadn't just worked together with her friends.

[tonysoprano300]

Um... Trunks?

Literally like someone said already in the thread, he needed "a Vegeta son". And how many women were there in the team to fulfill that role?

First, a few of you are taking this "because she's not gaga for him, that means she thinks he's ugly" way too seriously. Is it really that difficult to assume that attraction could grow over time. More importantly, they got together during the training, not in the interim period before Goku got home.

it would be like Piccolo Jr living at Kame house during the 5 year window between the 23rd World Martial Arts tournament and the arrival of Radditz.

Piccolo hadn't just worked together with her friends.

That alliance was born purely out of necessity, Vegeta threatened to kill her on namek. At least thats my understanding of what went down, maybe I'm missing something about Vegeta acting in a altruistic manner at some point.

[AliTheZombie13]

First, a few of you are taking this "because she's not gaga for him, that means she thinks he's ugly" way too seriously. Is it really that difficult to assume that attraction could grow over time?

Yes.

1) Killed her boyfriend
2) Sent her to a traumatic experience in space in a quest to resurrect him
3) Slaughtered an entire village and was called worse than Hitler by her
4) Threatened her with death and narrowly avoided killing her
5) Didn't see her for days while she continued to suffer a traumatic experience in an alien planet
6) She's now attracted to him

None of this spells logic.

[ABED]

First, a few of you are taking this "because she's not gaga for him, that means she thinks he's ugly" way too seriously. Is it really that difficult to assume that attraction could grow over time?

Yes.

1) Killed her boyfriend
2) Sent her to a traumatic experience in space in a quest to resurrect him
3) Slaughtered an entire village and was called worse than Hitler by her
4) Threatened her with death and narrowly avoided killing her
5) Didn't see her for days while she continued to suffer a traumatic experience in an alien planet
6) She's now attracted to him

None of this spells logic.

She has 2+ years to get over it before Trunks is even conceived. A death threat is hardly a dealbreaker in DB.

And trauma in Dragon Ball? It's not that kind of story.

[AliTheZombie13]

I mean, you did directly reference me there with the "ugly" part, so...

I was referring to her reaction to him immediately post Namek's explosion. Bulma goes from thinking he's worse than Hitler to suddenly attracted to him, flirting with him and inviting him home. That was in the span of a few days of pure stress without seeing him after he just tried and almost succeeded in killing her, a few days of pure stress in an alien planet he sent her into in the first place.

[ABED]

Why do you keep mentioning Hitler?

And I can't stress this enough - bring up things like stress and psychological maladies like trauma in DB shows a lack of understanding of the kind of story that it is.

And no, I didn't directly reference you with regards to the "ugly" issue. I saw others mention it.