How do you feel about the trope where everyone waits for Goku?

[Kenji]

Um, okay.

Let's just forget about Gohan's arc coming full circle with his untapped potential (established since his introduction in the manga) while learning to strike that delicate balance between being a scholar and fighter that defends his friends

Except it's a terrible payoff to his arc to have his "potential untapped" by sitting around for half the entire arc only to get beaten by said potential. The Cell arc did a far better job at executing that idea IMO.

or Piccolo helping to support others instead of always fighting from the front lines

He failed to discipline Gotenks and got humanity killed.

Vegeta grappling with his limits and character flaws from Majin Vegeta all the way to Pure Buu

Kind of. Right after Majin Boo is released and things get screwed up again, Goku mentions Bulma to him and he immediately and abruptly snaps out of it. Vegeta redeeming himself was a good idea executed poorly.

Goku coming to intentionally rely on others when the situation calls for it,

Because that was something he always struggled with, especially during the end of the Saiyan arc, the Namek arc, and the Cell arc. And most especially in this arc, where he intentionally and repeatedly keeps refusing to fight all-out and repeating ad-nauseam that the new generation must deal with the problem.

or how virtually all of this ties into everyone having their own part to play within a greater collective while actively pushing the story forward and progressing as characters.

Sorry, but I just don't see how everyone's actions all tie up nicely into "and then Vegeta decides humanity must own up to saving the world from the monster we helped release and refused to stop thanks to our egos!"

No, all that matters is "plot convenience" and the "wins" these guys get as fighters. Which actually just takes us back to what I originally said from the start ITT. Absolute insane levels of dishonesty and circularity here.

You have purposefully twisted and ignored my arguments to make some kind of false narrative that my problem with this trope, or the absolute horrible execution of the ideas presented in the Boo arc, all boil down to me whining rather simplistically that "the other guys don't get enough wins :'("

And that's not even the first time you do this in this thread.
Yes, I'm the dishonest one, sure buddy.

Or maybe, and I might be crazy here: I just have a different opinion than you.
I don't think your favorite manga is the absolute masterpiece of writing you think it is, and that's okay.
No need to get so absurdly defensive and insult me, but here you are doing this shit all over again.

Can't say I'm interested in continuing any of this, to be honest.

Same. Thank goodness a block button exists. Best wishes.

[jjgp1112]

Um, okay.

Let's just forget about Gohan's arc coming full circle with his untapped potential (established since his introduction in the manga) while learning to strike that delicate balance between being a scholar and fighter that defends his friends, or Piccolo helping to support others instead of always fighting from the front lines, or Vegeta grappling with his limits and character flaws from Majin Vegeta all the way to Pure Buu, or Goku coming to intentionally rely on others when the situation calls for it, or how virtually all of this ties into everyone having their own part to play within a greater collective while actively pushing the story forward and progressing as characters.

No, all that matters is "plot convenience" and the "wins" these guys get as fighters. Which actually just takes us back to what I originally said from the start ITT.

Absolute insane levels of dishonesty and circularity here. Can't say I'm interested in continuing any of this, to be honest.

Ehh, you're kinda obfuscating a lot of details here. Yes, Gohan does get his potental untapped and yet nothing pays off from it. Untapped, but unfulfilled. The entire arc puts him in Goku's place as the "Wait for ____" guy and then when that moment happens, once the tables turn against him rather than overcoming the circumstances, just gets tossed aside for the guy who spent all arc talking about how he's a relic of the past and it's not his place to handle this shit anymore, and Gohan from there on out basically ceases to exist in the narrative; his failure left unaddressed. The Buu arc spent the majority of ts storyline revolving around setting up Goten, Gohan, and Trunks to take up the mantle from the old guard and then it drops off te face of the Earth, narrative blue balls.

It would be like if Goku turning Super Saiyan against Frieza, but then when Frieza gets 100% full power he gets completely demolished and Vegeta comes back from the dead and takes care of Frieza instead. Huh? It's a conclusion yes, but a completely dissatisfactory narrative. Or, more aptly, if after Gohan gets his arm broken against Cell, Goku just teleports from the afterlife and takes care of Cell.

Yeah, sure, guys in the Buu arc have a part to play, but then those parts are discarded and amount to dick. In past arcs, we knew that Tien, Gohan & Krillin, Piccolo etc were all filling time for an imminent Goku return as he trains and/or recovers. Not the case in the Buu saga. Goku ejects himself from the action entirely and says it's no longer his world or fight. This wasn't treated as some tragedy or hurdle that needs to be overcome, or some personal hangup for Goku to get over. This was a passing of the baton. Gohan is the guy being set up to train and take care of things when he returns while Goten & Trunks are essentially his [significantly more annoying] Gohan & Krillin...until, nah go fuck yourselves we're walking all that back.

The Buu saga failings aren't a matter of "My fave didn't get the W," it's the narrative shitting its pants and failing its characters.

Now, an argument could be made that the Cell Games does the same thing by pivoting from Goku to Gohan but Toriyama actually set that up and the failure of Goku is actually important to the subsequent narrative, in that Goku knew he was fighting a losing battle and Gohan really had hands like that cuz that fight wasn't even impressing him.

[PhantomSaiyan]

This also just reeks of Toriyama forgetting what happened back when he was writing the story like when he claimed he forgot about Lunch, even though her being written out was explained in the story.

This dude in a CAPSULE CORP crop top jacket turns Supe Saiyan. Short of Goku fucking Bulma behind Chi Chi’s back there is very little room for doubt who Future Boy’s parents are

That is NOT how it went down if you read the actual interview

It's not Toriyama recounting that happened years later so he forgot the details, the editors themselves talk about how shocked they were at how late Toriyama decided who Trunks' parents were and how casual he was about suddenly making such a decision out of nowhere.



There's no reason to try and revise history and make it seem like Toriyama actually planned his shit out, he very clearly didn't, everyone who ever came into contact with him and had anything to do with his creative process will tell you that he didn't, it's not really up for any kind of debate at this point.

There is also more options than you give it credit for as far as who Trunks' parents could be. If Toriyama already knew at least that he came from the future, he could very easily be Goku's nephew. Or another son of his.
Wearing a Capsule Corp jacket doesn't automatically make Bulma the mother.

[MasenkoHA]

This also just reeks of Toriyama forgetting what happened back when he was writing the story like when he claimed he forgot about Lunch, even though her being written out was explained in the story.

This dude in a CAPSULE CORP crop top jacket turns Supe Saiyan. Short of Goku fucking Bulma behind Chi Chi’s back there is very little room for doubt who Future Boy’s parents are

That is NOT how it went down if you read the actual interview

It's not Toriyama recounting that happened years later so he forgot the details, the editors themselves talk about how shocked they were at how late Toriyama decided who Trunks' parents were and how casual he was about suddenly making such a decision out of nowhere.



There's no reason to try and revise history and make it seem like Toriyama actually planned his shit out, he very clearly didn't, everyone who ever came into contact with him and had anything to do with his creative process will tell you that he didn't, it's not really up for any kind of debate at this point

Sensationalism is a thing. I’m not here to claim “oh Toriyama planned out who Trunks was long before he showed up” but I am saying the claim of “Oh Toriyama had no idea who the parents of the mysterious boy who can turn Super Saiyan and wears a Capsule Corp jacket are ” is suspect. This is a series that had 2 and half Saiyans and only 2 women who were still around. The options were limited and Chi Chi wasn’t associated with Capsule Corp

[PhantomSaiyan]

Sensationalism is a thing. I’m not here to claim “oh Toriyama planned out who Trunks was long before he showed up” but I am saying the claim of “Oh Toriyama had no idea who the parents of the mysterious boy who can turn Super Saiyan and wears a Capsule Corp jacket were” is suspect. This is a series that had 2 and half Saiyans and only 2 women who were still around. The options were limited and Chi Chi wasn’t associated with Capsule Corp

They literally have 0 reason to lie about this, and it's very clearly something they remember quite well because of how shocked they were at such a decision, and it's 100% in line with the modus operandi that Toriyama himself admitted to having, and that we can observe in the manga.

Denying it is just delusional at this point...

And again, options are NOT as limited as you make them out to be.
If Toriyama already knew Trunks was from the future, he could have been a. Another son of Goku, b. Goku's nephew, c. An even more distant relative
Because again, wearing a Capsule Corps jacket doesn't automatically make Bulma your mother.

[jjgp1112]

I mean it does seem weird that Toriyama would roll out a Super Saiyan from the future with a hairstyle similar to Bulma's and a Capsule Corp jacket that immediately establishes a connection with Earth if he didn't at the very least intend for him to be the son of Vegeta. I think the editors may have misremembered certain details too, like perhaps Toriyama initially DESIGNED the character without any origin and was ready to dive full speed ahead until he finalized things.

[jjgp1112]

Sensationalism is a thing. I’m not here to claim “oh Toriyama planned out who Trunks was long before he showed up” but I am saying the claim of “Oh Toriyama had no idea who the parents of the mysterious boy who can turn Super Saiyan and wears a Capsule Corp jacket were” is suspect. This is a series that had 2 and half Saiyans and only 2 women who were still around. The options were limited and Chi Chi wasn’t associated with Capsule Corp

They literally have 0 reason to lie about this, and it's very clearly something they remember quite well because of how shocked they were at such a decision, and it's 100% in line with the modus operandi that Toriyama himself admitted to having, and that we can observe in the manga.

Denying it is just delusional at this point...

And again, options are NOT as limited as you make them out to be.
If Toriyama already knew Trunks was from the future, he could have been a. Another son of Goku, b. Goku's nephew, c. An even more distant relative
Because again, wearing a Capsule Corps jacket doesn't automatically make Bulma your mother.

Firstly, there's no reason to be so aggro about this.

Secondly, while Capsule Corp jacket doesn't automatically mean he's Bulma's son, it does establish a connection with EARTH. Leaving very little from for further parentage beyond the two Saiyans on Earth we already know and the lady who has a similar hairstyle and would be the person most likely to have Capsule Corp branded merch around.

I mean it does not sound odd that Toriyama would roll out a Super Saiyan from the future with a hairstyle similar to Bulma's and a Capsule Corp jacket that immediately establishes a connection with Earth if he didn't at the very least intend for him to be the son of Vegeta and an Earthling woman? I think the editors may have misremembered certain details too, like perhaps Toriyama initially DESIGNED the character without any origin and was ready to dive full speed ahead until he finalized things.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I mean it does seem weird that Toriyama would roll out a Super Saiyan from the future with a hairstyle similar to Bulma's and a Capsule Corp jacket that immediately establishes a connection with Earth if he didn't at the very least intend for him to be the son of Vegeta. I think the editors may have misremembered certain details too, like perhaps Toriyama initially DESIGNED the character without any origin and was ready to dive full speed ahead until he finalized things.

The jacket means nothing. Could be a gift. Imagine a future timeline where the only survivors are Bulma (who very clearly is the only character that can build a time machine so she has to survive by default, either her or a descendant) and either another son of Goku, or a hypothetical son of Gohan, or an even further descendant.

Future Bulma (or descendant) builds the time machine, gives him the jacket. Very easy scenario to imagine. Again, wearing a capsule corps jacket doesn't automatically turn you into Bulma's son.

And Trunks' hairstyle isn't similar to Bulma's either, he used that hairstyle for tons of characters, it's just how he draws straight hair with a middle part.

Firstly, there's no reason to be so aggro about this.

Which is why I'm not lol I'm just arguing the point. I'll don't get the need to automatically put into question my mood or depict it as "aggro", we can talk about things without pretending like we can read minds

[MasenkoHA]

Sensationalism is a thing. I’m not here to claim “oh Toriyama planned out who Trunks was long before he showed up” but I am saying the claim of “Oh Toriyama had no idea who the parents of the mysterious boy who can turn Super Saiyan and wears a Capsule Corp jacket were” is suspect. This is a series that had 2 and half Saiyans and only 2 women who were still around. The options were limited and Chi Chi wasn’t associated with Capsule Corp

They literally have 0 reason to lie about this, and it's very clearly something they remember quite well because of how shocked they were at such a decision, and it's 100% in line with the modus operandi that Toriyama himself admitted to having, and that we can observe in the manga.

Denying it is just delusional at this point...

“Toriyama is a quirky guy known for making shit up as he goes along let’s play that up”

And again, options are NOT as limited as you make them out to be.
If Toriyama already knew Trunks was from the future, he could have been a. Another son of Goku, b. Goku's nephew, c. An even more distant relative

A. I have raised the possibility that the alternative was Goku fucked Bulma behind Chi Chi’s back, yes

B. From whomst? Raditz? Because that makes sense

Because again, wearing a Capsule Corps jacket doesn't automatically make Bulma your mother.

Once again at that point there were literally two vaginas in Dragon Ball. Guess which female character was associated with Capsule Corp and which one is Chi Chi?

[Kenji]

It could have been Lunch, but I digress.

[jjgp1112]

I mean it does seem weird that Toriyama would roll out a Super Saiyan from the future with a hairstyle similar to Bulma's and a Capsule Corp jacket that immediately establishes a connection with Earth if he didn't at the very least intend for him to be the son of Vegeta. I think the editors may have misremembered certain details too, like perhaps Toriyama initially DESIGNED the character without any origin and was ready to dive full speed ahead until he finalized things.

The jacket means nothing. Could be a gift. Imagine a future timeline where the only survivors are Bulma (who very clearly is the only character that can build a time machine so she has to survive by default) and either another son of Goku, or a hypothetical son of Gohan.

Future Bulma builds the time machine, gives him the jacket. Very easy scenario to imagine. Again, wearing a capsule corps jacket doesn't automatically turn you into Bulma's son.

And Trunks' hairstyle isn't similar to Bulma's either, he used that hairstyle for tons of characters, it's just how he draws straight hair with a middle part.

Trunks looks nothing like Goku, Gohan, or Chi-Chi.

Like I said, the Capsule Corp jacket doesn't automatically make Bulma his mom. But it DOES establish that he's from Earth. And that's where the interview stops passing the smell test.

1) If he's a Saiyan clearly from Earth, he's clearly not the son of Goku or Chi-Chi because he looks nothing like them or Gohan
2) He has a hairstyle we've literally seen Bulma wear
3) He is at the VERY LEAST supposed to be the son of Vegeta, the only other Saiyan on Earth we know of, and is wearing clothing bearing the insignia of the company inherited by Bulma, who
4) Just ONE CHAPTER ago flirted with Vegeta and took him into her home. And then in that same chapter we see Vegeta just casually hanging out at a Capsule Corp barbecue wearing Earth clothes, comfortable as fuck.

It becomes very, very unlikely that Toriyama didn't have Trunks' identity planned out by the time he made it to page.

Toryyama was lackadaisical with a lot of things, but not design choices. I find it implausible that he'd slap the Caspsule Corp. logo on somebody's clothes without it being first and foremost meant to tie him to Bulma.

[PhantomSaiyan]

“Toriyama is a quirky guy known for making shit up as he goes along let’s play that up”

It's still true lol as he often admitted HIMSELF

A. I have raised the possibility that the alternative was Goku fucked Bulma behind Chi Chi’s back, yes

B. From whomst? Raditz? Because that makes sense

A. You know that Goku can have other sons with Chichi too right?.... And that son, can be one of the last survivors along with Bulma, who builds the time machine and gives him the jacket?

B. You know that Gohan's sons are also Goku's nephews?... Did you not consider that despite me excplicitly saying it?

Once again at that point there were literally two vaginas in Dragon Ball. Guess which female character was associated with Capsule Corp and which one is Chi Chi?

First of all, very classy man. Second, like I keep saying, wearing a CC jacket doesn't make Bulma your mom. I already very lazily created a scenario where a descendant of Goku with no biological relation to Bulma could be wearing that jacket.

[Kenji]

Isn't Trunks' hairstyle just John Connor? A better argument could be made for his hair color.

[PhantomSaiyan]

Trunks looks nothing like Goku, Gohan, or Chi-Chi.

Like I said, the Capsule Corp jacket doesn't automatically make Bulma his mom. But it DOES establish that he's from Earth. And that's where the interview stops passing the smell test.

1) If he's a Saiyan clearly from Earth, he's clearly not the son of Goku or Chi-Chi because he looks nothing like them or Gohan
2) He has a hairstyle we've literally seen Bulma wear
3) He is at the VERY LEAST supposed to be the son of Vegeta, and is wearing clothing bearing the insignia of the company inherited by Bulma, who
4) Just ONE CHAPTER ago flirted with Vegeta and took him into her home. And then in that same chapter we see Vegeta just casually hanging out at a Capsule Corp barbecue wearing Earth clothes, comfortable as fuck.

It becomes very, very unlikely that Toriyama didn't have Trunks' identity planned out by the time he made it to page.

In the interview they never stated Toriyama didn't know that he was from Earth, just that he didn't know who his parents were. This point isn't solid, because they never said that

1. In the hypothetical scenario that he's Gohan's son, he could just look like his mother, whom we've never seen lol it's really not that hard to explain.
2. She never had a middle part like that. Never.
3. He could not have been Vegeta's son, nothing indicates it, he doesn't look like him either. The clothing could be explained like I've already explained it, very easily. When you're the last survivors in a dystopian apocalyptic future, you take whatever clothing you can get your hands on.
If you're the only survivor along with Bulma, and you're taking refugee at CC, then you're gonna be wearing CC clothing regardless if you're her son or not.
4. It's a seed. Writers plant seeds all the time, doesn't mean they always follow through with them. In this case he did, he could have very well done something different.
And even in the case that Trunks was Goku's nephew, he could still have Bulma and Vegeta end up together, because the two things are not mutually exclusive

Isn't Trunks' hairstyle just John Connor? A better argument could be made for his hair color.

Exactly. And since it wasn't colored at the time, then any argument that his hair matches Bulma's is irrelevant

[JulieYBM]

I imagine that Toriyama told Kondou that he didn't know who Trunks' parents were because he was just dragging his feet making a commitment until he wrote and drew the scene. He probably knew he was going to do Vegeta and Blooma and didn't care to commit until he had to.

[MasenkoHA]

Isn't Trunks' hairstyle just John Connor? A better argument could be made for his hair color.

I assume that’s what Jjggp meant, but also yes there’s no reason for Goku and Chi Chi’s hypothetical second son having Bulma’s hair color

Spoiler:

and wearing a jacket branded with Bulma’s family’s company

Do I think Toriyama planned Trunks before he introduced him? No

Do I think Toriyama knew exactly who Trunks parents were after he drew him and had him go Super Saiyan? Yes

[Mr Baggins]

Yes, Gohan does get his potental untapped and yet nothing pays off from it. Untapped, but unfulfilled. The entire arc puts him in Goku's place as the "Wait for ____" guy and then when that moment happens, once the tables turn against him rather than overcoming the circumstances, just gets tossed aside for the guy who spent all arc talking about how he's a relic of the past and it's not his place to handle this shit anymore, and Gohan from there on out basically ceases to exist in the narrative; his failure left unaddressed.

My take on the payoff for Buu arc Gohan is much less what he's achieving as an individual fighter so much as what he's achieving as a person. It's a plot point that he's rusty by now – Vegeta mentions he actually became weaker than he was during Cell – and that's framed in such a way that he's abandoned much of what brought him there through his own scholarly pursuits (they do this again in Super, where it's much less effective). But also, Gohan doesn't like fighting as a hobby per se. Those bursts of anger that benefited him just never came naturally, so the ritual with Elder Kai was a logical solution to that conundrum.

In many ways, I prefer it to the Cell arc because there was never a guarantee that Gohan could rely on rage to get the job done if a greater threat arrived, and that's exactly what we end up seeing. He's a pacifist at heart.

He still loses to Buu, but what he gains as a character outweighs him failing to score wins or whatever. I have a lot of appreciation for how even though the protagonists all fail individually (including Goku, really) up until the climax, what they ended up contributing near the end through the Genkidama felt like a nice unifying hurrah to their arcs throughout the story.

I don't know to what, if any, degree this was all planned out during publication. But much like Dragon Ball's main character, I think Toriyama is great at finding ways to wrap everything up nicely by the end; even when he's often obfuscating his own storylines with twists and turns to keep the plot engaging.

_______

Also, I will maintain that the Saiyan arc is the best use for a larger ensemble cast. It does this better than any other story in the series. My preference for Buu comes down chiefly to other factors, mainly character-related.

[PhantomSaiyan]

I assume that’s what Jjggp meant, but also yes there’s no reason for Goku and Chi Chi’s hypothetical second son having Bulma’s hair color

Spoiler:

and wearing a jacket branded with Bulma’s family’s company

Again, Trunks had no hair color in those chapters because the manga is in black and white. His hair color was established later after he already committed to his parents, so any mention of hair color is completely irrelevant.

And second, Gohan's hypothetical son from the future could have any hair color ever, because we haven't been shown the mother. Possibilties are endless.

And again, I have already explained to you scenarios where any descendant of Goku could end up wearing CC jackets. When you're in an apocalypse, and the only other friendly survivor that you know is this scientist from CC that built you a time machine, it's not absurd to imagine a scenario where she could also give you the jacket lol
Perhaps after your own clothes got torn up fighting the androids?

Do I think Toriyama knew exactly who Trunks parents were after he drew him and had him go Super Saiyan? Yes

I will never fail to be impressed at how many people here think they know Toriyama better than the people who worked with him. Any time his editors or friends come out and say something about him, people that ACTUALLY knew him and worked with him, here comes the audience, so sure of itself, denying their claims. Pretty funny how this keeps happening.

I guess you guys know better than the people that were actually there with him, next time I want to know something about Toriyama, I'll just ask you guys lol

[jjgp1112]

Trunks looks nothing like Goku, Gohan, or Chi-Chi.

Like I said, the Capsule Corp jacket doesn't automatically make Bulma his mom. But it DOES establish that he's from Earth. And that's where the interview stops passing the smell test.

1) If he's a Saiyan clearly from Earth, he's clearly not the son of Goku or Chi-Chi because he looks nothing like them or Gohan
2) He has a hairstyle we've literally seen Bulma wear
3) He is at the VERY LEAST supposed to be the son of Vegeta, and is wearing clothing bearing the insignia of the company inherited by Bulma, who
4) Just ONE CHAPTER ago flirted with Vegeta and took him into her home. And then in that same chapter we see Vegeta just casually hanging out at a Capsule Corp barbecue wearing Earth clothes, comfortable as fuck.

It becomes very, very unlikely that Toriyama didn't have Trunks' identity planned out by the time he made it to page.

In the interview they never stated Toriyama didn't know that he was from Earth, just that he didn't know who his parents were. This point isn't solid, because they never said that

1. In the hypothetical scenario that he's Gohan's son, he could just look like his mother, whom we've never seen lol it's really not that hard to explain.
2. She never had a middle part like that. Never.
3. He could not have been Vegeta's son, nothing indicates it, he doesn't look like him either. The clothing could be explained like I've already explained it, very easily. When you're the last survivors in a dystopian apocalyptic future, you take whatever clothing you can get your hands on.
If you're the only survivor along with Bulma, and you're taking refugee at CC, then you're gonna be wearing CC clothing regardless if you're her son or not.
4. It's a seed. Writers plant seeds all the time, doesn't mean they always follow through with them. In this case he did, he could have very well done something different.
And even in the case that Trunks was Goku's nephew, he could still have Bulma and Vegeta end up together, because the two things are not mutually exclusive

Isn't Trunks' hairstyle just John Connor? A better argument could be made for his hair color.

Exactly. And since it wasn't colored at the time, then any argument that his hair matches Bulma's is irrelevant

Do you truly, honestly think, that Toryama planted the seeds of Vegeta and Bulma being a thing, assimilated Vegeta into Earth, and then rolled out a Super Saiyan from the future that couldn't possibly be the son of Goku and wearing the one piece of clothing most likely to be associated with Bulma within a chapter of each other and they're just completely unrelated? What's more likely that, or guys in their 70s not entirely remembering something from 35 years ago?

[jjgp1112]

Yes, Gohan does get his potental untapped and yet nothing pays off from it. Untapped, but unfulfilled. The entire arc puts him in Goku's place as the "Wait for ____" guy and then when that moment happens, once the tables turn against him rather than overcoming the circumstances, just gets tossed aside for the guy who spent all arc talking about how he's a relic of the past and it's not his place to handle this shit anymore, and Gohan from there on out basically ceases to exist in the narrative; his failure left unaddressed.

My take on the payoff for Buu arc Gohan is much less what he's achieving as an individual fighter so much as what he's achieving as a person. It's a plot point that he's rusty by now – Vegeta mentions he actually became weaker than he was during Cell – and that's framed in such a way that he's abandoned much of what brought him there through his own scholarly pursuits (they do this again in Super, where it's much less effective). But also, Gohan doesn't like fighting as a hobby per se. Those bursts of anger that benefited him just never came naturally, so the ritual with Elder Kai was a logical solution to that conundrum.

In many ways, I prefer it to the Cell arc because there was never a guarantee that Gohan could rely on rage to get the job done if a greater threat arrived, and that's exactly what we end up seeing. He's a pacifist at heart.

He still loses to Buu, but what he gains as a character outweighs him failing to score wins or whatever. I have a lot of appreciation for how even though the protagonists all fail individually (including Goku, really) up until the climax, what they ended up contributing near the end through the Genkidama felt like a nice unifying hurrah to their arcs throughout the story.

I don't know to what, if any, degree this was all planned out during publication. But much like Dragon Ball's main character, I think Toriyama is great at finding ways to wrap everything up nicely by the end; even when he's often obfuscating his own storylines with twists and turns to keep the plot engaging.

_______

Also, I will maintain that the Saiyan arc is the best use for a larger ensemble cast. It does this better than any other story in the series. My preference for Buu comes down chiefly to other factors, mainly character-related.

He doesn't gain anything as a character; or rather, what he did gain if you wanted to stretch the narrative is immediately undermined by his complete and utter failure and ejection from the narrative thereafter, and from a purely on-the-page view of things he seeminfly just dicked off and stopped training afterwards, the exact thing the story was fingerwagging him for at every possible opportunity prior to the Z-Sword.