Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Saiga]

They got weaker after the Cell Games because all of them (except for Tenshinhan) stopped training.

And knowing Tenshinhan, all he does is train so 100,000,000 would be a reasonable amount

How do you figure Tenshinhan got twice as powerful as Kurilin (especially when Kurilin's power up from Guru pegs him as roughly 10 times stronger than Tenshinhan was in the Saiyan saga) and four times stronger than Yamcha? There's never been that much of a gap.

To get from 1830 in the Saiyan saga to the 800,000 he has in the Trunks saga, he'd have to increase his power level by roughly x435 in two years, only one of which was spent on King Kai's planet. That is an astronomical gain. That is the same as the power up Goku gained in the same time frame, and he did it by training under 100G's and abusing Zenkai's. As far as I can tell you've given him the biggest growth rate of any other character in the series, with no explanation for it.

[CatouttaHell]

Raditz (Supressed): 1,200 (I guess his full power is 1,500 according to the Daiz)

Toriyama stated Raditz was over a Saibaiman (1,200) and Raditz himself implied he's over 1,307.

[Saiga]

So, I've decided to throw my own power levels into the mix. I've done from the start to end of Z, but because everything before the androids is just filling in gaps, I'll just go from there. I really would like everyone's help with my power level lists so I can tweak them and wind up with something I'm happy with.

So, to start off with: I havn't discounted a single guidebook power level. So that means Kurilin at 75,000 during the battle with Freeza, etc.

Multipliers:

50x base for Super Saiyan
75x base for Super Saiyan Grade 2
100x base for Super Saiyan Grade 3
5x base for Mastered Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan Full Power*
10x base for Super Saiyan 2**

*(I really don't see a way around this unless I discount the kiri units, which I don't want to)
** It's not weaker than the other forms, it's just 2x MSS/SSFP.

Freeza's triumphant return

Trunks - 3,100,000
--Super Saiyan - 155,000,000
Freeza - 6,750,000
--Full Power - 135,000,000
King Cold - 3,500,000
--Full Power - 105,000,000
Piccolo - 2,000,000
Son Gokû - 3,200,000
--Super Saiyan - 160,000,000

So, explanation time. Trunks is a wee bit stronger than Goku on Namek, actually he's the same as Kaboom has him, funnily enough. I've seen a lot of fan made battle powers place him here as well. Freeza is at 5% of his new maximum, which seems good for him to be suppressed at. Cold is at less than 5% because I don't believe he is in his final form, however he is above 2nd form Freeza as he is huge and so I think his restrictive forms don't necessarily restrict the same amount of power that Freeza's do. Goku's obviously a bit stronger than Trunks.

3 years after Freeza's magnificent comeback

3 years later
Son Gokû - 4,800,000
--Super Saiyan - 240,000,000
---Sick - 120,000,000
Piccolo - 16,000,000
--Full Power - 160,000,000
Son Gohan - 4,500,000
Kurilin - 560,000
Tenshinhan - 54,900
Yamcha - 44,400
Trunks - 4,200,000
--Super Saiyan - 210,000,000
Vegeta - 5,200,000
--Super Saiyan - 260,000,000
No. 20 - 125,000,000
--Vegeta's ki - 130,000,000
---Piccolo's ki - 146,000,000
No. 19 - 110,000,000
--Kamehameha - 120,000,000
---Gokû's ki - 150,000,000
----Vegeta's ki - 180,000,000
No. 18 - 290,000,000
No. 17 - 320,000,000
No. 16 - 380,000,000

MOAR explanations: Goku's got three years of training with two sparring partners, I may have been too generous though as his sparring partners weren't equal to him or anything but it seems pretty reasonable to me. I like to think Piccolo got so strong because Nail had his dormant power unlocked to get to 42,000 and when they merged Piccolo had his dormant power unlocked as well, which accelerated his strength gains. That or Namekians have some sort of Zenkai like thing where they get stronger from facing stronger enemies and Super Saiyan Goku just beat the shit out of him repeatedly. Gohan seems alright to be almost even with Goku because of his potential (and the possibility of him getting another Zenkai while training).

Kurilin had a massive head start and kept it, Tenshinhan and Yamcha mostly just got stronger from Kaio's training, I didn't list Chaotzu because apparently he just isn't worth bringing anymore (not like he ever was...) and I think overall I'm being pretty generous with the humans. I don't think Trunks could have gotten too much stronger, if he even trained at all (I have no idea if he did or not but I figured he must have done something so as not to lag behind). Vegeta worked his butt off in 300Gs to get that strong.

I always thought 19 would be stronger than 20 because Gero seemed to begin reducing power starting with 16 to make them more controllable, plus he had 19 fight the biggest threat (Goku), but his dialogue gives some evidence that he could be stronger. I don't think it's conclusive but if other people think it's more logical for 20 to be stronger please let me know.

18, 17 and 16 don't really need much explanation but I imagine that the "less than half" 17 would have used against F. Gohan would have been ~140,000,000.

3 years and 3 days after Freeza's amazing arrival on Earth

Piccolo - 320,000,000
Cell - 275,000,000
--Humans Absorbed - 380,000,000
---Semi-Perfect - 450,000,000
----Full Power - 520,000,000
-----Perfect - 680,000,000
Vegeta - 8,400,000
--Super Saiyan - 420,000,000
---Super Saiyan Grade 2 - 630,000,000
Trunks - 7,900,000
--Super Saiyan - 395,000,000
---Super Saiyan Grade 2 - 592,000,000
----Super Saiyan Grade 3 - 790,000,000

A-ny-way, Piccolo's fusion has double his strength, Cell is initially only below Piccolo and the androids, after he absorbed all those humans only 16 is his equal. He powers up a fair bit from absorbing 17, but is outclassed by Grade 2 Vegeta even after revealing his full power. Once he reaches his perfect form he surpasses Vegeta by a fair bit and only Grade 3 Trunks can top his power, although the lack of speed makes his transformation useless against Cell. Trunks was mentioned as being slightly weaker than Vegeta, so there you go.

3 years and 13 days after Freeza's awe-inspiring return to the front lines.

Son Gokû - 270,000,000
--Super Saiyan Half Power - 675,000,000
---Super Saiyan Full Power - 1,350,000,000
Son Gohan - 330,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power - 1,650,000,000
--Super Saiyan 2 - 3,300,000,000
---Enraged Super Saiyan 2 - 4,125,000,000
--Injured Super Saiyan 2 - 2,475,000,000
Vegeta - 210,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power - 1,050,000,000
Trunks - 190,000,000
--Super Saiyan Full Power - 950,000,000
Piccolo - 450,000,000
Perfect Cell - 1,400,000,000
--Full Power - 1,800,000,000
---Power Stressed - 2,700,000,000
---"Super Perfect" - 3,600,000,000
Cell Jr - 1,000,000,000
Mr. Satan - 139

Further explanations! My theory is that mastering the Super Saiyan form causes the gap between the form and base to shrink, mostly to help explain some Boo saga things. I don't think it's a totally crazy theory.

Anyway, Goku's half power obviously had to be quite impressive to get a strong reaction, Gohan's surpassed his father, Vegeta and Trunks show signs of Super Saiyan mastery but don't gain as much power due to solo training, Piccolo must have been under Goku's half power to already know he was useless, and Perfect Cell has the edge over Goku's full power. The Cell Juniors are capable of giving Vegeta and Trunks some serious trouble. I think the rest of Cell and Gohan's battle powers speak for themselves. Satan's 139 is lifted from his record on the punching machine, as if that measures in the same units as scouters (so very very improbable, I'm just rolling with it for funsies).

And that's everything for the Android - Cell arcs, I'd like to get some feedback before I post my Boo saga battle powers because if I'm going to make changes to these I may as well wait so I can adjust my Boo saga levels before posting. Thanks for reading.

[dbgtFO]

*(I really don't see a way around this unless I discount the kiri units, which I don't want to)

Kiri units =/= battle power units. For all we know they could relate to each other in some complicated way like going from Celsius to Fahrenheit or vice-versa.

MOAR explanations: [...]
I always thought 19 would be stronger than 20 because Gero seemed to begin reducing power starting with 16 to make them more controllable, plus he had 19 fight the biggest threat (Goku), but his dialogue gives some evidence that he could be stronger. I don't think it's conclusive but if other people think it's more logical for 20 to be stronger please let me know.

Yes, 20 is stronger based on what he said and since you don't discard guidebook battle powers, there's not much reason to discard guidebook statements on strength relations between characters either(when no contradictions are present). As it happens Daizenshuu 7 agrees with Dr. Gero's implications.

18, 17 and 16 don't really need much explanation but I imagine that the "less than half" 17 would have used against F. Gohan would have been ~140,000,000.

It's stated a couple of times by Trunks, that the present androids were stronger than the ones in his timeline.

Further explanations! My theory is that mastering the Super Saiyan form causes the gap between the form and base to shrink, mostly to help explain some Boo saga things. I don't think it's a totally crazy theory.

True, but if it's just to satisfy the kiri units, there really isn't much need for it, considering what I said earlier.

Satan's 139 is lifted from his record on the punching machine, as if that measures in the same units as scouters (so very very improbable, I'm just rolling with it for funsies).

That would make him as strong as Kame-sennin, which is pretty unlikely, when the author himself doubts he could beat a real world martial artist. That seems to support my notion, that Mr. Satan's strength is kept to realistic levels, far from what we see Goku do in the beginning of the story.

But of course you can just keep it that way, if you like.

[hleV]

What makes you all think that Goku used his full SSJ power against Yakon...

[Saiga]

*(I really don't see a way around this unless I discount the kiri units, which I don't want to)
Kiri units =/= battle power units. For all we know they could relate to each other in some complicated way like going from Celsius to Fahrenheit or vice-versa.

That's true, I just felt trying to work them in as well really.

Yes, 20 is stronger based on what he said and since you don't discard guidebook battle powers, there's not much reason to discard guidebook statements on strength relations between characters either(when no contradictions are present). As it happens Daizenshuu 7 agrees with Dr. Gero's implications.

I didn't know Daizenshuu 7 said that about Dr. Gero, thanks! I've fixed their powers up now.

It's stated a couple of times by Trunks, that the present androids were stronger than the ones in his timeline.

I thought he was unaware of the Androids using "less than half" of their strength against Gohan and by extension him.

True, but if it's just to satisfy the kiri units, there really isn't much need for it, considering what I said earlier.

It isn't just kiri units, it seems like the multiplier is smaller in the Boo saga in general.

That would make him as strong as Kame-sennin, which is pretty unlikely, when the author himself doubts he could beat a real world martial artist. That seems to support my notion, that Mr. Satan's strength is kept to realistic levels, far from what we see Goku do in the beginning of the story.

But of course you can just keep it that way, if you like.

Yeah, in all likelihood Satan probably has a power level of 6 or 7, that one isn't serious.

[dbgtFO]

I thought he was unaware of the Androids using "less than half" of their strength against Gohan and by extension him.

They used less than ½ in their(as far as we know) first fight with Gohan. The fight he died in could have been full power for all we know.

It isn't just kiri units, it seems like the multiplier is smaller in the Boo saga in general.

Ok, that's fine then.

Yeah, in all likelihood Satan probably has a power level of 6 or 7, that one isn't serious.

I figured that much considering your explanation.

[CatouttaHell]

Your gaps are ridiculously low, no offence. There's no way there can be less than a 1.1x gap between Perfect Cell and SSjinG2 Vegeta.

Cell completely tanked a kick to the head and implied he could tank a Gekiretsu Kodan-type attack from Vegeta. The gap should be 3-5x minimum IMO, though I've seen people put it much higher than even that.

[Piccolo Daimao]

There's no way there can be less than a 1.1x gap between Perfect Cell and SSjinG2 Vegeta.

People have different opinions. A 1.1x gap for you could be too little for Cell to overwhelm SSjG2 Vegeta, but it could be enough for him. Or he didn't factor in gaps, since DB doesn't work like that.

[In Brightest Day]

Saiga, I notice here...

Freeza's triumphant return

Trunks - 3,100,000
--Super Saiyan - 155,000,000
Freeza - 6,750,000
--Full Power - 135,000,000
King Cold - 3,500,000
--Full Power - 105,000,000
Piccolo - 2,000,000
Son Gokû - 3,200,000
--Super Saiyan - 160,000,000

That you label Piccolo's power, but not Vegeta's. I'm not criticizing you or anything (they're your levels), but I was wondering where you place Vegeta around this time?

[Saiga]

Saiga, I notice here...

Freeza's triumphant return

Trunks - 3,100,000
--Super Saiyan - 155,000,000
Freeza - 6,750,000
--Full Power - 135,000,000
King Cold - 3,500,000
--Full Power - 105,000,000
Piccolo - 2,000,000
Son Gokû - 3,200,000
--Super Saiyan - 160,000,000

That you label Piccolo's power, but not Vegeta's. I'm not criticizing you or anything (they're your levels), but I was wondering where you place Vegeta around this time?

I wasn't really sure where to put his power, because I don't know if he had been doing serious training. He didn't have a gravity machine available, so gains would probably be minimal. But at the climax of the Freeza Arc, I have him at 2,500,000 (or over).

And I know the gaps can be pretty low at times, but I didn't want the numbers getting ridiculously high. I know Dragon Ball was never conservative about that, and my Boo saga power levels get pretty crazy high, but I didn't want the numbers getting out of hand.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Saiga, I notice here...

*list*

That you label Piccolo's power, but not Vegeta's. I'm not criticizing you or anything (they're your levels), but I was wondering where you place Vegeta around this time?

I wasn't really sure where to put his power, because I don't know if he had been doing serious training. He didn't have a gravity machine available, so gains would probably be minimal. But at the climax of the Freeza Arc, I have him at 2,500,000 (or over).

Apparently, he had.

Chapter: 333 (DBZ 139), P8.1
Gohan: “So, do you still spend every day in intense training?”
Piccolo: “More or less…”

Chapter: 333 (DBZ 139), P8.2
Bulma: “Vegeta’s like that too. He’s not around at all at noon. He’s definitely off training somewhere.”

There's no reason why he wouldn't be, as he still wanted to surpass Super Saiyan Goku. I think his gains would be just as much as Piccolo's, since he didn't have a gravity machine either.

[Saiga]

Piccolo ended up being super strong after the 3 years of training, so I think the fusion made him grow stronger a lot faster than the others.

Anyway, I totally forgot to post my Boo numbers. Here is where shit gets whack, and I'm most likely going to get a lot of disagreements.

Multipliers:

5x base for Mastered Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan Full Power
10x base for Super Saiyan 2
15x base for Super Saiyan 3*
Fusion is (A x B) / (A - B) Where A > B.**
1 Kili = 1,000,000 battle power


*I also like the SEG's multiplier for Super Saiyan 3, but I'm going with this one for now anyway. I may do a revised list in the future like Kaboom.
**It's my theory that fusion is dependent on how similar the two fusees are. I know Trunks lowers his ki to be dead even with Goten, because the fusion won't work otherwise, however I think his full strength is still a factor in the fusion.

At the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai

Son Gohan - 350,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 1,750,000
---Super Saiyan 2 - 3,500,000
Son Goten - 130,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 650,000,000
Vegeta - 585,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 2,925,000,000
---Super Saiyan 2 - 5,850,000,000
----Bobbidi's Charm - 6,000,000,000
Trunks - 143,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 715,000,000
Piccolo - 500,000,000
Son Goku - 600,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 3,000,000,000
---Super Saiyan 2 - 6,000,000,000
----Super Saiyan 3 - 9,000,000,000
No. 18 - 290,000,000
Mr. Satan - 137
Videl - 640,000,000
Kibito - 400,000,000
Kaioshin - 600,000,000
Pocus - 200,000,000
Yakon - 800,000,000
Dabra - 3,600,000,000
Majin Boo - 2,500,000,000
--Attacking Dabra - 5,000,000,000
---Full Power - 10,000,000,000
-Mr. Boo - 4,500,000,000
Grey Boo - 5,500,000,000
Gotenks - 1,430,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 7,150,000,000


Here we go! I subscribe to the theory that Gohan didn't lose any power, and his training for the Budokai actually made him stronger. As a Super Saiyan 2, he is weaker than he was at the Cell Games, due to his Cell Games self being powered by is anger.

The boys are amazingly strong for their age (or just in general, really... lol) and are weaker than 18 in base, but still strong enough to put up a bit of a fight. As Super Saiyans they have to be careful not to kill her. Vegeta has surpassed Gohan from 7 years ago, and Goku is still stronger than him.

Piccolo got stronger too, I guess. I kind of just bumped him up for Boo's absorption's later on. 18 is the same she was in the Android saga, Kibito could be too much for base Gohan, Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo, and Pocus sucks compared to Vegeta.

I really don't get the Daizenshuu's statements about whether Gohan was a Super Saiyan 2 or not against Dabra, and frankly, I don't really care after they contradicted themselves on the matter. I'll just have Dabra at slightly above Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's level... which oddly enough, makes him exactly the same as I had Super Perfect Cell. Huh.

I always got the impression that Fat Boo was slightly above Super Saiyan 3 Goku, so that's why he is where he is. Gotenks isn't all that and a bag of chips yet. But he will be. Sooooooooooon.

Time passes

Son Goten - 140,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 700,000,000
Trunks - 150,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 750,000,000
Gotenks - 2,100,000,000
--Super Saiyan - 10,500,000,000
---Super Saiyan 3 - 31,500,000,000
Son Gohan - 700,000,000
--Ultimate - 50,000,000,000
Tenshinhan - 60,000
Evil Boo - 30,000,000,0000
--Gotenks and Piccolo - 62,000,000,000
-Kids and Piccolo - 31,950,000,000
---Gohan, Kids and Piccolo - 81,950,000,000
Kibitoshin - 1,200,000,000
Vegetto - 23,400,000,000
--Super Vegetto - 117,000,000,000
Pure Boo - 10,000,000,000
Mr. Satan - 200,000,000

The last of it! Goten and Trunks have gotten slightly stronger, but more importantly, the gap between them has shrunken, making Gotenks a lot stronger. As a Super Saiyan 3, Gotenks is slightly stronger than Evil Boo. Gohan has gotten stronger from training with the Z sword, and I guess he would have surpassed Goku. Maybe he also got a near death boost after being healed from Fat Boo's attack, lol.

Tenshinhan's improved, but really, how much more can he improve in the mountains with a shitty sparring partner? He didn't appear to improve much at all during the 5 year gap before Z, so I don't think he would have improved much here either.

Evil Boo is pretty straight forward, he's triple Fat Boo's power because magic. He then absorbs people for even more power. Kibitoshin didn't turn out that strong because his parts were too far apart. Vegetto turned out a lot better.

Pure Boo = Fat Boo, but Goku has a rougher time because he is in a living body.

I guess that's it.

[Pantalones]

As much as I hate the common fan-bullshit that Vegerot is literally omnipotent or has a power level somewhere up in the hundred-million-billion-gazillions... I think you may actually have him a bit too low there.

[hleV]

As much as I hate the common fan-bullshit that Vegerot is literally omnipotent or has a power level somewhere up in the hundred-million-billion-gazillions...

Explain why exactly is Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto bullshit.

[Piccolo Daimao]

As much as I hate the common fan-bullshit that Vegerot is literally omnipotent or has a power level somewhere up in the hundred-million-billion-gazillions...

Explain why exactly is Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto bullshit.

He didn't say that. He just said that he disagrees with the opinion that Vegetto's omnipotent or has a battle power in the hundred-million-billion-gazillions, not necessarily that he doesn't believe in "Goku x Vegeta" (which doesn't have to be taken literally anyway).

[hleV]

As much as I hate the common fan-bullshit that Vegerot is literally omnipotent or has a power level somewhere up in the hundred-million-billion-gazillions...

Explain why exactly is Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto bullshit.

He didn't say that. He just said that he disagrees with the opinion that Vegetto's omnipotent or has a battle power in the hundred-million-billion-gazillions, not necessarily that he doesn't believe in "Goku x Vegeta" (which doesn't have to be taken literally anyway).

I think he meant exactly Goku x Vegeta = Vegetto, as it'd be millions multiplied by millions, because I doubt anybody's putting Vegetto above even that. So I'm asking what's the problem with people believing that the formula is to be taken literally.

[Saiga]

He's got a power level high enough to lay a complete smack down on Gohan!Boo, without trying, which is what we see him do. Not really much reason to have him higher than that.

Could I get any opinions on the other battle powers?

[Rocketman]

Vegetto fixed the universe by punching it.

[Saiga]

Other battle powers. Vegetto either stats that way, or gets nerfed.