The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[RandomGuy96]

...But Cell was still suppressed against SSJ Gohan, so we know that wasn't *really* his "true speed." More accurately: that was the "true speed" of his suppressed state.

No. It was his true speed, because he said it was his true speed. His suppressed speed wasn't enough to even touch Gohan. Which is why he used his true speed. Because he said he was going all out in speed. This is like the "100% doesn't really mean 100%" 'debate' with Freeza.

The only time Cell powered up at all during he and Gohan's initial fight, was just after Goku gave him a Senzu bean--but this was still before Gohan himself had powered up, thus Cell didn't yet know how much power he wielded(so he may have still been hugely suppressed.) Conversely, during his fight with Goku, Cell let him power up first --which enabled him to see how much power Goku wielded-- and then proceeded to power himself up accordingly. I think Cell was surprised that Gohan --a young boy-- was able to generate as much power as he did, but it wasn't so much power that Gohan remotely rivaled Cell himself(he only landed like 2 or 3 hits, right?) Heck, if we're going by 'hits landed', Goku>>>Gohan. /shrug

Goku was able to land any hits on a fresh Cell. At all. He was only able to land three hits:

A. Warp Kamehameha. Landed through teleportation, doesn't really 'count'.
B. Kick. Also landed landed through teleportation; he miserably failed to hit Cell without it, to the point that Cell looked like he was teleporting.
C. Punch. Only landed it after Cell used up a huge amount of ki regenerating.

Neither of his physical blows affected Cell as much as Gohan's kick did. He also took Cell's hit worse than Gohan did. It was outright said that Cell couldn't do any damage to Gohan.

Regardless, I could agree with the notion that SSJ Gohan was more powerful than SSJ Goku, but I don't think the difference was as significant as some believe, otherwise we'd of seen explicit statements to that effect from either Cell or the Z fighters(or both)--but we didn't. There were only a few ambiguous implications from the aforementioned parties which alluded to Gohan being around Goku's level(or perhaps *slightly* more powerful.) IMHO.

We literally see the same Cell who kicked Goku's ass not being able to touch Gohan, and then when he goes full speed, he is unable to damage Gohan at all. None of this is even slightly ambiguous. Nor is:

A. The chapter where SS Gohan first powers up being called "The Warrior Who Surpasses Goku".
B. Piccolo stating that SS Gohan's power is #1.
C. Goku stating Gohan is stronger than him.
D. Cell stating that Goku wasn't bluffing (about Gohan being stronger than him).
E. That guidebook outright saying that Gohan was stronger than Cell (the one that fought him and Goku, not the full power one).

[Galan007]

I've got one...

Bulked-up Perfect Cell(the power-weighted form he assumed while fighting SSJ2 Gohan, seen here) vs. SSJ2 Gohan.

Stips:
This is exclusively a beam-lock. They start 50km apart, and fire an all-out Kamehameha at one another. Whose blast prevails?

[Angelus]

Me too!

Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan VS Full Power Perfect Cell (not SPC), Dabura (no spitting), Full Power Bojack, Final Form Hatchiyack, Movie 8 LSSJ Broly, culture fluid Bio-Broly

Cell Jr. VS Suppressed/Blue-Skinned Bojack

Cell Games SSJ Gohan VS Cell Jr. (If Cell actually sent one Cell Jr. to attack Gohan too)

Cell Games Vegeta, Future Trunks, and Goku VS Cell Games Gohan (All SSJs)

Drum VS 23rd WMAT Chi Chi

Full Power Perfect Cell VS Cell Games Full Power and Serious SSJ Gohan (imagine if Gohan couldn't go SSJ2)

[Galan007]

No. It was his true speed, because he said it was his true speed. His suppressed speed wasn't enough to even touch Gohan. Which is why he used his true speed. Because he said he was going all out in speed. This is like the "100% doesn't really mean 100%" 'debate' with Freeza.

Goku was able to land any hits on a fresh Cell. At all. He was only able to land three hits:

A. Warp Kamehameha. Landed through teleportation, doesn't really 'count'.
B. Kick. Also landed landed through teleportation; he miserably failed to hit Cell without it, to the point that Cell looked like he was teleporting.
C. Punch. Only landed it after Cell used up a huge amount of ki regenerating.

Neither of his physical blows affected Cell as much as Gohan's kick did. He also took Cell's hit worse than Gohan did. It was outright said that Cell couldn't do any damage to Gohan.

Regardless, I could agree with the notion that SSJ Gohan was more powerful than SSJ Goku, but I don't think the difference was as significant as some believe, otherwise we'd of seen explicit statements to that effect from either Cell or the Z fighters(or both)--but we didn't. There were only a few ambiguous implications from the aforementioned parties which alluded to Gohan being around Goku's level(or perhaps *slightly* more powerful.) IMHO.

We literally see the same Cell who kicked Goku's ass not being able to touch Gohan, and then when he goes full speed, he is unable to damage Gohan at all. None of this is even slightly ambiguous. Nor is:

A. The chapter where SS Gohan first powers up being called "The Warrior Who Surpasses Goku".
B. Piccolo stating that SS Gohan's power is #1.
C. Goku stating Gohan is stronger than him.
D. Cell stating that Goku wasn't bluffing (about Gohan being stronger than him).
E. That guidebook outright saying that Gohan was stronger than Cell (the one that fought him and Goku, not the full power one).

So Cell accessed 100% of his speed, without even powering up to 100%, iyo? Couldn't disagree more. That's like saying 3% Freeza's speed was potentially=100% Freeza's speed.

As for your other points, I maintain what I said: "I could agree with the notion that SSJ Gohan was more powerful than SSJ Goku, but I don't think the difference was as significant as some believe, otherwise we'd of seen explicit statements to that effect from either Cell or the Z fighters(or both)--but we didn't. There were only a few implications from the aforementioned parties which alluded to Gohan being around Goku's level(or perhaps *slightly* more powerful.) IMHO." I excluded the word "ambiguous" this time.

Anywho, you're welcome to disagree. Doesn't change my opinion in the slightest.

[RandomGuy96]

No. It was his true speed, because he said it was his true speed. His suppressed speed wasn't enough to even touch Gohan. Which is why he used his true speed. Because he said he was going all out in speed. This is like the "100% doesn't really mean 100%" 'debate' with Freeza.

Goku was able to land any hits on a fresh Cell. At all. He was only able to land three hits:

A. Warp Kamehameha. Landed through teleportation, doesn't really 'count'.
B. Kick. Also landed landed through teleportation; he miserably failed to hit Cell without it, to the point that Cell looked like he was teleporting.
C. Punch. Only landed it after Cell used up a huge amount of ki regenerating.

Neither of his physical blows affected Cell as much as Gohan's kick did. He also took Cell's hit worse than Gohan did. It was outright said that Cell couldn't do any damage to Gohan.

Regardless, I could agree with the notion that SSJ Gohan was more powerful than SSJ Goku, but I don't think the difference was as significant as some believe, otherwise we'd of seen explicit statements to that effect from either Cell or the Z fighters(or both)--but we didn't. There were only a few ambiguous implications from the aforementioned parties which alluded to Gohan being around Goku's level(or perhaps *slightly* more powerful.) IMHO.

We literally see the same Cell who kicked Goku's ass not being able to touch Gohan, and then when he goes full speed, he is unable to damage Gohan at all. None of this is even slightly ambiguous. Nor is:

A. The chapter where SS Gohan first powers up being called "The Warrior Who Surpasses Goku".
B. Piccolo stating that SS Gohan's power is #1.
C. Goku stating Gohan is stronger than him.
D. Cell stating that Goku wasn't bluffing (about Gohan being stronger than him).
E. That guidebook outright saying that Gohan was stronger than Cell (the one that fought him and Goku, not the full power one).

So Cell accessed 100% of his speed, without even powering up to 100%, iyo? Couldn't disagree more. That's like saying 3% Freeza's speed was potentially=100% Freeza's speed.

As for your other points, I maintain what I said: "I could agree with the notion that SSJ Gohan was more powerful than SSJ Goku, but I don't think the difference was as significant as some believe, otherwise we'd of seen explicit statements to that effect from either Cell or the Z fighters(or both)--but we didn't. There were only a few implications from the aforementioned parties which alluded to Gohan being around Goku's level(or perhaps *slightly* more powerful.) IMHO." I excluded the word "ambiguous" this time.

Anywho, you're welcome to disagree. Doesn't change my opinion in the slightest.

No it isn't, because at no point did Freeza outright say he was going to his true speed. As we see from the Freeza example, it's possible to raise your speed without raising strength. There should be nothing stopping Cell from doing exactly what he said he'd do.

Those aren't implications. We outright see Gohan doing far better than Goku (hence why Cell needed what he explicitly called his true speed), and we have a guidebook stating that Gohan was stronger than that Cell.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Super Saiyan Gohan still wasn't powerful enough to defeat Cell at that level of power.

[Saiga]

Super Saiyan Gohan still wasn't powerful enough to defeat Cell at that level of power.

Not full power Cell, no. But there's nothing indicating he wouldn't beat the suppressed Cell.

edit: Actually I'm not even sure about full power Cell. We've got nothing to go off except for his 'true speed' and even then he still needed to distract Gohan to catch him.

[RandomGuy96]

Super Saiyan Gohan still wasn't powerful enough to defeat Cell at that level of power.

Not full power Cell, no. But there's nothing indicating he wouldn't beat the suppressed Cell.

edit: Actually I'm not even sure about full power Cell. We've got nothing to go off except for his 'true speed' and even then he still needed to distract Gohan to catch him.

Well, we do have him out-speeding Gohan after he said he was using his true speed. That and him stating that SS Gohan can't beat him after seeing his movements and durability. Though the fact that he didn't completely blitz Gohan after he said he'd use his true speed indicates that he's not dimensions above him, unless Cell is really slow in proportion to the rest of his power.

[singsing]

Me too!

Cell Games SSJ2 Gohan VS Full Power Perfect Cell (not SPC), Dabura (no spitting), Full Power Bojack, Final Form Hatchiyack, Movie 8 LSSJ Broly, culture fluid Bio-Broly

Cell Jr. VS Suppressed/Blue-Skinned Bojack

Cell Games SSJ Gohan VS Cell Jr. (If Cell actually sent one Cell Jr. to attack Gohan too)

Cell Games Vegeta, Future Trunks, and Goku VS Cell Games Gohan (All SSJs)

Drum VS 23rd WMAT Chi Chi

Full Power Perfect Cell VS Cell Games Full Power and Serious SSJ Gohan (imagine if Gohan couldn't go SSJ2)

How come all you do is post a billion and one matchups in this thread and never even answer other people's matchups?

I've got one...

Bulked-up Perfect Cell(the power-weighted form he assumed while fighting SSJ2 Gohan, seen here) vs. SSJ2 Gohan.

Stips:
This is exclusively a beam-lock. They start 50km apart, and fire an all-out Kamehameha at one another. Whose blast prevails?

Gohan wins. I see bulked up form as just having a lot more muscle mass and physical strength, not necessarily ki. And they'd have trouble using it for a long time or in a powerful condensed blast.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Super Saiyan Gohan still wasn't powerful enough to defeat Cell at that level of power.

Not full power Cell, no. But there's nothing indicating he wouldn't beat the suppressed Cell.

edit: Actually I'm not even sure about full power Cell. We've got nothing to go off except for his 'true speed' and even then he still needed to distract Gohan to catch him.

Goku says their only hope in beating Cell is the power hidden within Gohan. I doubt he was expecting Super Saiyan Gohan to beat Cell without it.

[KentalSSJ6]

A potara of Goten and Trunks VS Buuhan.

[Saiga]

Super Saiyan Gohan still wasn't powerful enough to defeat Cell at that level of power.

Not full power Cell, no. But there's nothing indicating he wouldn't beat the suppressed Cell.

edit: Actually I'm not even sure about full power Cell. We've got nothing to go off except for his 'true speed' and even then he still needed to distract Gohan to catch him.

Goku says their only hope in beating Cell is the power hidden within Gohan. I doubt he was expecting Super Saiyan Gohan to beat Cell without it.

Either a retcon or adapting to the present situation (Cell's true speed / Gohan's reluctance). Prior to that it's very clear that he already expects Gohan to be capable of beating Cell. Otherwise literally everything he says makes no sense.

Well, we do have him out-speeding Gohan after he said he was using his true speed. That and him stating that SS Gohan can't beat him after seeing his movements and durability. Though the fact that he didn't completely blitz Gohan after he said he'd use his true speed indicates that he's not dimensions above him, unless Cell is really slow in proportion to the rest of his power.

Oh, I see now. He was able to grab Gohan and attack him before Gohan had given up on fighting him.

[RandomGuy96]

A potara of Goten and Trunks VS Buuhan.

Trunkten smashes Buuhan with no less ease than Vegetto did.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Either a retcon or adapting to the present situation (Cell's true speed / Gohan's reluctance). Prior to that it's very clear that he already expects Gohan to be capable of beating Cell. Otherwise literally everything he says makes no sense.

Maybe. However, even Gohan believes that was the plan all along:

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P16.2-3
Gohan: “I-I’m gradually starting to understand…What father means when he says I’m the only one who can defeat Cell…It seems that since long ago, whenever my anger flares up, I subconsciously begin fighting madly with outrageous power…So…father must be calculating on that…”

Aside from that, Goku also brings up his hidden power before the battle starts:

Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”

The way I see it, Goku was expecting Gohan's hidden power to be a factor in the battle with Cell. Perhaps he thought Gohan would do well against Cell, but I doubt he really was expecting Gohan to defeat Cell without using his hidden powers.

[Angelus]

How come all you do is post a billion and one matchups in this thread and never even answer other people's matchups?

Because I just realized that by getting all these answers, the power scaling I had in my head, half of the time, aren't correct. For example, I always thought that the Goten and Trunks were always below the androids even during the end of Z. And thought Chiaotzu is above Ginyu's level by end of Z. Or that Piccolo was just Cell Jr level in the Buu saga. So I ask instead. lol

Like I would ask something like

Namek 50% Frieza VS End of Z: Tien (no tri beam), Krillin, Yamcha, Chiaotzu

To scope out how weak the humans are. ^That's a VS question, by the way

[Saiga]

Gohan had a really hard time coming to terms with the fact that he was stronger than Goku, or that he was meant to beat Cell, so that came across to me like he was trying to rationalize it while downplaying his own power.

Goku's comment is talking about how strong Gohan got through his training. It really doesn't sound like he's banking on drawing out more of Gohan's hidden power through anger.

[RandomGuy96]

How come all you do is post a billion and one matchups in this thread and never even answer other people's matchups?

Because I just realized that by getting all these answers, the power scaling I had in my head, half of the time, aren't correct. For example, I always thought that the Goten and Trunks were always below the androids even during the end of Z. And thought Chiaotzu is above Ginyu's level by end of Z. Or that Piccolo was just Cell Jr level in the Buu saga. So I ask instead. lol

Like I would ask something like

Namek 50% Freeza VS End of Z: Tenshinhan (no tri beam), Krillin, Yamcha, Chiaotzu

To scope out how weak the humans are. ^That's a VS question, by the way

Chaozu very well could be, and is implied to be via power scaling in the android arc. Nothing concrete, though.

No matter how strong you think the humans are, it was outright said that they were weaker than base Android arc Vegeta. Since Krillin didn't train past that point, yet was still repeatedly stated to be stronger than Tenshinhan, base Android arc Vegeta is stronger than every human by far, no ifs, ands, or buts. Base Android arc Vegeta wasn't dimensions above base Namek Goku. 50% Freeza crushes.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Well, Goku also seems to be focused on Cell pushing Gohan after he knocks him down. I mean, Goku says the power began to be released during their training, then later tells Piccolo to just wait until Gohan gets pissed off enough to bring out his true power. Goku doesn't realize it's probably not a good idea until after Piccolo tells him Gohan isn't a warrior who enjoys fighting. I'll read that part again, but nothing really seems to indicate Goku was expecting Gohan to defeat Cell as he was. He just says if Gohan loses, it'll be the end. Gohan is the strongest there and is capable of more power, so that's pretty accurate.

Either way, I just don't think Gohan's hidden powers became Goku's plan at the last minute. He was talking as if he saw this power already and knew how important it'd be in the battle. Wouldn't mind discussing this more, but I don't want to throw this topic off.

[Saiga]

All of Goku's comments when he's setting up for Gohan to fight Cell seem to be talking about Gohan's, and Cell's, current power though. Cell didn't manage to impress Gohan with the level he was using to fight Goku.

[Galan007]

No it isn't, because at no point did Freeza outright say he was going to his true speed. As we see from the Freeza example, it's possible to raise your speed without raising strength. There should be nothing stopping Cell from doing exactly what he said he'd do.

Those aren't implications. We outright see Gohan doing far better than Goku (hence why Cell needed what he explicitly called his true speed), and we have a guidebook stating that Gohan was stronger than that Cell.

So a character can increase their speed to 100% while still in a highly suppressed state, iyo? Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense, and contradicts what we know about power/speed increases in DBZ.

And we have a manga showing us that SSJ Gohan was incapable of defeating a *suppressed* Cell, let alone a *full power* Cell--so this guidebook you're cherry-picking from isn't accurate.

...But I think this topic has been beaten to death enough already, so I'll agree to disagree.

Either a retcon or adapting to the present situation (Cell's true speed / Gohan's reluctance). Prior to that it's very clear that he already expects Gohan to be capable of beating Cell. Otherwise literally everything he says makes no sense.

Maybe. However, even Gohan believes that was the plan all along:

Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P16.2-3
Gohan: “I-I’m gradually starting to understand…What father means when he says I’m the only one who can defeat Cell…It seems that since long ago, whenever my anger flares up, I subconsciously begin fighting madly with outrageous power…So…father must be calculating on that…”

Aside from that, Goku also brings up his hidden power before the battle starts:

Goku: “In the Room of Spirit and Time, the dormant power sealed away deep, deep inside him began to be released. Why don’t we try asking him? How about it, Gohan? Did you think that dad and Cell’s fight just now was too incredible and you couldn’t keep up?”

The way I see it, Goku was expecting Gohan's hidden power to be a factor in the battle with Cell. Perhaps he thought Gohan would do well against Cell, but I doubt he really was expecting Gohan to defeat Cell without using his hidden powers.

Completely agree.