Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[pacz360]

Whether base goku is god tier or not is another question however the fact that those feats happen in the anime shows he far stronger than most buu saga high tiers
Android 17 was hyped up the ass by toei and it was said he train for ten +years him being god tier isn't out of the question especially where he forced goku to use blue where goku didn't even intend to use the form at all and was able to trade blows with him while both were holding back.

Base Goku was definitely God Tier originally. I have no doubt about that. Though that too is again a problem because the Kai's didn't say he had power rivalling the Gods when he fought Bergamo in Base or then as a Super Saiyan.

So Super Saiyan Goku was apparently weaker than Base Goku in the Resurrection F saga.

If he can turn into a Super Saiyan in the first place then his Base shouldn't have the power of Super Saiyan God in it or it would always be Blue.

The manga from the start and now seemingly the anime too does not portray any form of Super Saiyan being God level.

Android 17 surpassing a non God level Super Saiyan that's fine, possibly. He certainly didn't get 50+ times as strong as Super Saiyan God though. You can't say he's God level yet in any case.

Dude goku trained 3 years with vegeta in the rosat to get stronger not weaker unless your telling me current ssj goku is weaker than the one in bog which doesn't make any sense at all.
Another point is that whis training which was to strengthen than there base forms not make itweaker then it was before.
That's because Base/SSJ/SSJ2/SSJ3 are not truly at the level of the Gods. SSJG is not truly at the level of the Gods. Whis mentioned as such when he compared the current level Goku was at POST-SSJG to a small tree while describing the large tree as the level of the Gods. Furthermore, they were primarily surprised with the fact that Goku had God Ki. Which he only has with SSJB.
Android 17 is definitely god tier that fact that he pushed goku to use blue says otherwise and he was able to trade blows with him while both were holding back.
Goku has ssj2 and ssj3 if 17 wasn't god tier then ssj2 and three would be enough to handle him instead goku had to use blue cause 17 was way too strong for his ssj forms barring blue.
Manga Power levels doesn't go well with the anime when they differ too much.
Stick to manga Power levels and only that instead fusing that with the anime.

Goku and dende said 17 was someone you don't want to have as an enemy

[Bullza]

People ASSUME that Goku's god-level in non-god forms in RoF. However, it's unclear enough that there's wrinkle room for the current interpretation.

Too many things point towards it.

- Base Goku seemingly doing the impossible in stopping Beerus' attack.

- Vegeta saying he'd surpassed Super Saiyan God.

- Vegeta needing those six months to grow in strength to the point he was unrecognisable just to catch back up to Goku.

- Them withstanding attacks from a unrestrained Beerus.

- Beerus saying to Goku he's grown a lot stronger and was about to fight him

- The Resurrection F manga clearly suggesting it.

Etc

Dude goku trained 3 years with vegeta in the rosat to get stronger not weaker unless your telling me current ssj goku is weaker than the one in bog which doesn't make any sense at all.

Well that's not particularly the theory.

Upon absorbing Super Saiyan Gods power, it was supposed to continue burning within him making his Super Saiyan and then his Base just as strong as Super Saiyan God.

The theory is that he no longer uses that source of power with his Base and Super Saiyan forms which is why they appear weaker now. He only uses this power that he absorbed when he turns Blue only.

It's not like he magically got weaker. He'd just be using that source of power differently now.

[pacz360]

People ASSUME that Goku's god-level in non-god forms in RoF. However, it's unclear enough that there's wrinkle room for the current interpretation.

Too many things point towards it.

- Base Goku seemingly doing the impossible in stopping Beerus' attack.

- Vegeta saying he'd surpassed Super Saiyan God.

- Vegeta needing those six months to grow in strength to the point he was unrecognisable just to catch back up to Goku.

- Them withstanding attacks from a unrestrained Beerus.

- Beerus saying to Goku he's grown a lot stronger and was about to fight him

- The Resurrection F manga clearly suggesting it.

Etc

Dude goku trained 3 years with vegeta in the rosat to get stronger not weaker unless your telling me current ssj goku is weaker than the one in bog which doesn't make any sense at all.

Well that's not particularly the theory.

Upon absorbing Super Saiyan Gods power, it was supposed to continue burning within him making his Super Saiyan and then his Base just as strong as Super Saiyan God.

The theory is that he no longer uses that source of power with his Base and Super Saiyan forms which is why they appear weaker now. He only uses this power that he absorbed when he turns Blue only.

It's not like he magically got weaker. He'd just be using that source of power differently now.

But there stronger not weaker at all and again the anime never implied it.
Unless your telling me somehow his ssj form and base all of sudden gotten weaker with no explaination which again doesn't make sense.
Current ssj goku would stomp base rof goku just like how current ssjb would stomp his rof blue counterpart.

[Bullza]

But there stronger not weaker at all and again the anime never implied it.
Unless your telling me somehow his ssj form and base all of sudden gotten weaker with no explaination which again doesn't make sense.
Current ssj goku would stomp base rof goku just like how current ssjb would stomp his rof blue counterpart.

Again it's not that he would have gotten weaker in the normal sense like how Gohan got weaker by the Buu saga.

There'd be the Super Saiyan God power. It's source of power that he absorbed into himself.

Base Goku and Super Saiyan Goku against Beerus were using that source of power to make them as strong as Super Saiyan God.

For whatever reason he no longer uses that source of power in his Base and Super Saiyan forms thus effectively making him somewhat comparable to how he was in the Buu saga. Probably a chunk stronger because of some training.

When he fought Frieza he'd be using that Super Saiyan God source of power. When he fought Frost or Krillin he wouldn't be.

That is the theory, that he can freely tap into that source of power to radically change his strength. No it wasn't said but that's why it's a theory and not a fact.

[ZombieVito]

Time for a new one of these. Done it a bit differently, as in a less head ache inducing way. I've tried to fit the anime and manga power scales together in one list. It uses the two base theory with the weaker Base being around their Buu saga level.

That's how it seems to be in the manga at least. It's unclear in the anime but for simplicity that's what I've gone with anyway.

[spoiler]God level

Zeno

Angel level

Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

God of Destruction level

Spirit Trunks
SSJB Vegito
Merged Zamasu (Light of Justice)
Beerus
Champa

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken level

Jiren
SSJB Goku Kaioken x2 = Toppo
Merged Zamasu
SSJB Goku/Vegeta = Enraged Super Trunks
Hit (Future Trunks saga)
SSJB Goku Kaioken x10 (Universe 6 saga)

Super Saiyan Blue level

SSJR Black (Scythe)
SSJR Black (Scimitar)
Super Trunks
Enraged SSJB Goku
SSJR Black
SSJB Goku/Vegeta (Universe 6 saga)
Hit (Universe 6 saga)
Golden Frieza
SSJB Goku/Vegeta (Resurrection F saga)

Super Saiyan God level

Saiyan Beyond God Goku (Resurrection F saga)
Final Form Frieza
Saiyan Beyond God Goku (Battle of Gods saga)
SSJ Beyond God Goku
SSJG Goku

Super Saiyan 2/3 level

Giant Bergamo
SSJ Vegito
Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta
Beerus (Under 10%)
SSJ3 Gotenks
Slim Buu
Good Buu
Drugged Basil
Black (in present)
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ2 Future Trunks
Zamasu
Android 17

Super Saiyan level

SSJ Goku/Vegeta
SSJ Gohan
SSJ Cabba
Magetta
SSJ Future Trunks
Final Form Frost
Tagoma
Piccolo (Universe 6 saga)
SSJ Kid Trunks
SSJ Goten
Android 18

Base level

Goku
Gohan
Bergamo
Lavender
Basil
Cabba
Trunks
Third Form Frost
Kid Trunks
Goten
First Form Frost
Botamo
Krillin
Tien

Punk level

Shisami
Gryll
Jaco
Roshi
Monaka[/spoiler]

I like this. I do have some input though:

- Shouldn't Future Trunks be stronger than Goku and Vegeta in equal forms at the start of the Black arc? He said he will use his full power against SSJ3 Goku, so that means he pushed back SSJ2 Goku while holding back.

- I really don't think we can take Beerus 10% line into consideration, it would mean Goku surpasses Beerus already with a KKx10 in later arcs.

- would bump Merged Zamasu a bit. While KKx2 SSB Goku did hit him repeatedly, he obviously didn't put resistance.

- I wouldn't put Vegetto and Merged Zamasu over Beerus or Champa. Kaioshin wasn't sure about it but they are indeed in that tier.

- Shouldn't SSG, SSJ God and SbG Goku be equal? At least in the anime that is.

- Black in base should be stronger than Good Boo. He was stated to be a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

- I think Roshi should be stronger than Jaco while he uses his Full Power form. Speaking of Jaco, why do you think Gryll is stronger than him?

[pacz360]

But there stronger not weaker at all and again the anime never implied it.
Unless your telling me somehow his ssj form and base all of sudden gotten weaker with no explaination which again doesn't make sense.
Current ssj goku would stomp base rof goku just like how current ssjb would stomp his rof blue counterpart.

Again it's not that he would have gotten weaker in the normal sense like how Gohan got weaker by the Buu saga.

There'd be the Super Saiyan God power. It's source of power that he absorbed into himself.

Base Goku and Super Saiyan Goku against Beerus were using that source of power to make them as strong as Super Saiyan God.

For whatever reason he no longer uses that source of power in his Base and Super Saiyan forms thus effectively making him somewhat comparable to how he was in the Buu saga. Probably a chunk stronger because of some training.

When he fought Frieza he'd be using that Super Saiyan God source of power. When he fought Frost or Krillin he wouldn't be.

That is the theory, that he can freely tap into that source of power to radically change his strength. No it wasn't said but that's why it's a theory and not a fact.

I see but I don't see the point let alone believe the guys at toei even remotely thought about it cause let's be real they don't.
Characters in super are getting major boosts in the anime they ever did in the manga.
Frieza went from low ssj tier to blue tier only four months
F.trunks did that in two days.
Android 17 had 10 years to get to that level.
I don't see why the need to create theory's like this which in reality create more headaches here.

[Bullza]

Shouldn't Future Trunks be stronger than Goku and Vegeta in equal forms at the start of the Black arc? He said he will use his full power against SSJ3 Goku, so that means he pushed back SSJ2 Goku while holding back.

That's what I thought originally but then someone brought up something I'd missed before.

When Black shows up in the present and Trunks goes to confront him, Vegeta stops him and tells him it's an opponent he can't beat or can't handle but then SSJ2 Goku goes and fights him and he's equal to him even after he powers up twice more after that.

So it'd be

SSJ2 Goku = Black (Second Power up) > Black (First Power Up) > Black > SSJ2 Trunks

I really don't think we can take Beerus 10% line into consideration, it would mean Goku surpasses Beerus already with a KKx10 in later arcs.

Well I don't. It's really just another name for Beerus suppressed but being specific on to what extent. The same Beerus who fought Goku, Gotenks, Buu, Gohan etc

Shouldn't SSG, SSJ God and SbG Goku be equal? At least in the anime that is.

Usually yes. I have one above the other because Goku kept powering up as the fight went on because he kept surpassing his limits.

He surpassed his limits and got stronger a few times as a SSJG, then apparently again as a SSJ during the final Kamehameha and then again in Base when he punched the sphere apart.

It's all Super Saiyan God's power, there was just a greater amount of it coming out in those other forms.

Black in base should be stronger than Good Boo. He was stated to be a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku.

Well that was in the future but ehhhh I don't know whether I should ignore that line or not. They say he's a little stronger than SSJ3 Goku but then he fights SSJ2 Goku equally....but then Trunks says Black in the future is only a little stronger than that.

So is he a little stronger than SSJ2 Goku or SSJ3 Goku? I suppose with the manga to boot it'd be more likely to be SSJ3 Goku.

I think Roshi should be stronger than Jaco while he uses his Full Power form. Speaking of Jaco, why do you think Gryll is stronger than him?

Rishi could well be stronger than Jaco actually. I'd say Jaco was stronger than ordinary beginning of Z Roshi. Buff Roshi might have been underestimated the whole time though.

As for Gryll I just assumed based on nothing. He leads a group of bad guys, could possibly be as strong as some random Frieza henchmen. Probably not though so I won't include him next time.

[Bullza]

I see but I don't see the point let alone believe the guys at toei even remotely thought about it cause let's be real they don't.

Well that's the popular in universe theory, which I think is a good enough theory to make sense of it.

It's not what I truly think is the real answer though. I find it hard it to believe it would be a thing and that Toei thought of it and yet never explained it. It's not something the vast majority of fans would even think of.

They portrayed Base Goku as being God level in the BoG and RoF sagas and the Copy Water arc so realistically as far as Toei was concerned he was at the same level during the Universe 6 saga too.

I think they starting with the Future Trunks saga they just straight up retconned Goku and hoped people wouldn't notice and most don't.

Toei must have been a little confused seeing in the outline that Goku and Trunks have a good fight even though the same outline would have mentioned Trunks having had trouble with Dabura.

Likewise chapter 13 of the manga that had Super Saiyan God return proving lesser forms are beneath it came out around when the Future Trunks saga began.

So I think Toei realised they'd got the power scale wrong and retconned it to better fit with the manga and possibly Toriyama's intentions.

Because ever since they've never portrayed this super strong Base Goku again. It was something we saw for definite against Beerus, Frieza, Monaka Beerus and Copy Vegeta and never again.

[pacz360]

I see but I don't see the point let alone believe the guys at toei even remotely thought about it cause let's be real they don't.

Well that's the popular in universe theory, which I think is a good enough theory to make sense of it.

It's not what I truly think is the real answer though. I find it hard it to believe it would be a thing and that Toei thought of it and yet never explained it. It's not something the vast majority of fans would even think of.

They portrayed Base Goku as being God level in the BoG and RoF sagas and the Copy Water arc so realistically as far as Toei was concerned he was at the same level during the Universe 6 saga too.

I think they starting with the Future Trunks saga they just straight up retconned Goku and hoped people wouldn't notice and most don't.

Toei must have been a little confused seeing in the outline that Goku and Trunks have a good fight even though the same outline would have mentioned Trunks having had trouble with Dabura.

Likewise chapter 13 of the manga that had Super Saiyan God return proving lesser forms are beneath it came out around when the Future Trunks saga began.

So I think Toei realised they'd got the power scale wrong and retconned it to better fit with the manga and possibly Toriyama's intentions.

Because ever since they've never portrayed this super strong Base Goku again. It was something we saw for definite against Beerus, Frieza, Monaka Beerus and Copy Vegeta and never again.

Base goku fought slim buu who was stronger then good buu who operated around high ssj2 to low tier ssj3 tier of power.
If base form goku was at buu saga level then he would've busted out ssj against him yet he hold his own just fine in base.
Stop saying theres been a recton where nothing even hints to it
Toei doesn't care for the manga power level if they did ssjb kaioken would've been a one time thing yet they have him use it multiple times.
Anime power levels does not go with the manga especially where you have ssj3 goku one shotting ssj2 trunks while manga there were equal to the point goku used ssjgod to beat him, goku using ssj and ssj god in the manga while goku went blue immediately against hit in the anime.
Not to mention ssjb stamina drain in the manga while in the anime its non existent.
Manga Power levels are manga power levels
Just like anime Power levels are anime power levels.
Trying to fuse the two won't work at all.

[TheMikado]

So I'm going to go ahead and pop in here because the two base theory is kinda partially my baby, and ironically I remember arguing with Bullza on this back in the Champa arc when Piccolo was doing ok against Frost.

There a few things that need to be understood.

1) The two base theory is really just trying to explain what is going on in a way that we are familiar with the in-universe rules that have been established in the Franchise.
2) It doesn't mean there are literally two bases. Rather, that there is form which Goku is capable of using God-ki or some variant of it without SSJ. Basically a normal base and an elevated base.
3) The manga is different but obviously they have similar roots. While they cannot really be mixed we can at least garner intentions from the similarities.

No one is right or wrong in this. There needs to be understanding of what IS versus what's INTENDED.

I believe there is NO "two bases" in the Anime.
I believe there SHOULD be "two bases" in the anime.

Until this fundamental aspect is understood, it will be impossible to have a conversation. I am actually putting together a new thread to discuss the hows and whys of Super's overall production so that can be argued in there. But for now just understand that there really is no two base theory in the anime, despite the fact that the evidence and narrative shows there should be.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Honestly, I'm fine with people propping up Two-Base Theory as trying to understand the anime's odd powerscaling. I get that it CAN get confusing at first glance, or when one goes in-depth. I get that. I personally see no issue, but I understand when others do.

What I'm peeved about is people trying to argue it has more credence/evidence than other theories/ideas. It may just be my personal bias, but I legitimately see nothing about the Two-Base Theory that's anything but arbitrary and for the purposes of convenience in comparison to other ideas. The fact that an entire theory came about instead of it being a natural progression, at least at face value, doesn't do wonders for my emotions on the matter.

For example, I'm CONSTANTLY trying to get people to understand that not all of the old rules apply to the franchise with regards to power anymore, such as the fact that lower-level fighters in terms of pure strength aren't useless in a fight against stronger opponents despite people saying the old material says they are, because this is NOW, not then. The situations are different than before when this debate is brought up, and the old rules have been crinkled up a bit to accommodate these changes.

People often try to offer a rebuttal to this thinking of mine via Two-Base Theory, and it pisses me off. Maybe proponents of the theory feel the same way when I tear into it, I don't know.

[TheMikado]

Honestly, I'm fine with people propping up Two-Base Theory as trying to understand the anime's odd powerscaling. I get that it CAN get confusing at first glance, or when one goes in-depth. I get that. I personally see no issue, but I understand when others do.

What I'm peeved about is people trying to argue it has more credence/evidence than other theories/ideas. It may just be my personal bias, but I legitimately see nothing about the Two-Base Theory that's anything but arbitrary and for the purposes of convenience in comparison to other ideas. The fact that an entire theory came about instead of it being a natural progression, at least at face value, doesn't do wonders for my emotions on the matter.

For example, I'm CONSTANTLY trying to get people to understand that not all of the old rules apply to the franchise with regards to power anymore, such as the fact that lower-level fighters in terms of pure strength aren't useless in a fight against stronger opponents despite people saying the old material says they are, because this is NOW, not then. The situations are different than before when this debate is brought up, and the old rules have been crinkled up a bit to accommodate these changes.

People often try to offer a rebuttal to this thinking of mine via Two-Base Theory, and it pisses me off. Maybe proponents of the theory feel the same way when I tear into it, I don't know.

I think you misunderstand, there is more than enough evidence to support the two-base theory. The fact that SSG appears in manga in the exact power progression that the two base theorers predicted is the most important evidence. In the Champa arc, when the anime got ahead, the theory was that there should be a non SSJ, God ki based form which followed after the progression of SSJ and sat between the normal SSJ levels and SSB. Again it was a theory and as with any theory it should be tested because it offers a method for predicting outcomes. The predicted outcome came to fruition in the manga which strengthens the theory and argument. So yes, because the theory has been used to accurately predict future events the theory does have more validity than other theories which have not.

In terms of the rules changing. If that were the case SSJ3 Gotenks vs base copy Vegeta should not have confirmed the old methods of scaling. Basically changing the rules in the middle of the game is going to leave people confused. You can make the argument that it is what it is, but you can't make the argument that arbitrarily changing the expectations is a good thing. Especially when the opposite expectation was reinforced numerous times prior.

[wolflonnie]

Been lurking the forums since last year, here's my two cents about the current tier list.
Italic for comparison with past characters.

Tier 0

Zenos

Tier 1

Zeno guards
Grand Priest

Tier 2: Angel Tier

Vados
Whis
Other Angels

Tier 3: GoD Tier

Other strong GoDs
Beerus, SSB Vegetto
Champa, Merged Zamasu (LoJ)
Other weaker GoDs

Tier 4: SSB+ Tier

Current SSBKKx10 Goku
Toppo
Weakened Merged Zamasu (LoJ), Spirit Trunks
Merged Zamasu (Initial), Current SSBKKx2 Goku
Current SSB Goku, Current SSB Vegeta, Current Hit
SSBKKx2 Goku (Zamasu ark), SSR Goku Black (Scythe)
SSB Vegeta (Zamasu ark post training), SSBKKx10 Goku (U6)
SSR Goku Black (Sword)
SSR Goku Black (initial), SSB Goku rage (Zamasu ark) SSB Goku (Zamasu ark later half)

Tier 5: SSB/SSG Tier

SSI Trunks, SSB Goku (Zamasu ark beginning), SSB Vegeta (Zamasu ark beginning), Hit (U6), Giant Bergamo, current Android 17
Golden Frieza, SSB Goku (U6), SSB Vegeta (U6)
Initial SSB Goku, initial SSB Vegeta, base Black Goku (post 1° Zenkai)
Suppressed Beerus
SSG Goku, Base Goku (god essence, vs Beerus), SSJ Goku (god essence, vs Beerus) future Zamasu

TIer 6: Upper tier Majin Buu Saga

Vegetto SSJ3
Current Goku SSJ3, Black Goku (in the present)
Vegetto SSJ2
Current Goku SSJ2, current Vegeta SSJ2
Future Trunks SSJ2, Rageta
Vegetto SSJ, present Zamasu
Current Goku SSJ, current Vegeta SSJ
Buuhan
Buutenks, Future Trunks SSJ, Bergamo
Mystic Gohan
Current Gohan SSJ
Current Base Goku, current Base Vegeta

Tier 7: Lower tier Majin Buu Saga

Cabba SSJ (U6)
Final Form Frost
Magetta
Base Cabba (U6), base Goku (U6), base Vegeta (U6)
Final Form Frieza (RoF), Base Goku (RoF)
Super Buu, Third Form Frost
Gotenks SSJ3
Slim Buu, Kid Buu
Base Future Trunks, Good Buu
Drugged Basil
Current Base Gohan, current Piccolo, Lavander, Basil, Tired final form Frost, Majin Vegeta

Tier 8: Upper Cell Ark tier

Ginew-Tagoma, Super Perfect Cell
Tagoma
Piccolo (U6), Perfect Cell (100%)
Base Gohan (RoF)
Piccolo (RoF), Suppressed Perfect Cell
Current Krillin, FPSSJ Goku @ Cell

[BWri]

See, that's where everybody is getting it wrong. People ASSUME that Goku's god-level in non-god forms in RoF. However, it's unclear enough that there's wrinkle room for the current interpretation.

RoF is what really messes everything up. If you ignore that, the scaling makes a lot more sense. All the confusion with Goku, Piccolo, and Gohan comes from here really, mainly the Goku and Gohan stuff. But RoF clearly displays Goku's base to be above Buu saga level since he whoops a Frieza who's several hundred times stronger than the Frieza that one shots Gohan in the movie and obliterates him in the series. Without that instance, we could've gone into Uni 6 thinking that Goku's regular forms were just that. Goku did absorb the godly power in BoG and RoF simply doubled down on that and implicitly showed that that was the case.

Another thing people are getting wrong is assuming that SSB is the result of a base Saiyan with god power going Super Saiyan. That's the wording throwing people off. The series hasn't really portrayed it like that. Instead, it's gone the route of showing SSB as a SS harnessing god power. Basically, if you removed the "who is a Saiyan" part of the description, or didn't emphasize it as much as people tend to do, it's a lot less mental homework to do.

I think people are simply getting too hung up on the multipliers, the numbers I mean. I don't think the numbers are meant to be as high as they used to be. For instance I don't think SSB is 50x SSG. I also don't think SSJ is a 50x boost anymore. Out of universe, the forms are as strong as the plot needs them to be now, much less consistent than DBZ, but in universe it's probably because they are accessing more power in base and so their transformations don't need to be as drastic. I reason this do to how well base Gohan did against the likes of Shisami and Tagoma and how base Goku could actually stand up to Hit for a while without transforming whereas SSB Vegeta was outright destroyed.

I honestly like that the transformation multipliers aren't so high. Power inflation annoyed me to death by the time the Buu saga hit.

[Lord Beerus]

You know, I've been re-reading the manga, and I came across in chapter 5, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest! I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB and doesn't this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees? And if not, then just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga?

[ZombieVito]

You know, I've been re-reading the manga, and I came across in chapter 5, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest! I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB and doesn't this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees? And if not, then just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga?

Well that was because Goku was a Saiyan beyond God there.

It really fixes everything up. People really need to get over it existing already.

[Triggered Vegeta]

You know, I've been re-reading the manga, and I came across in chapter 5, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest! I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB and doesn't this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees? And if not, then just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga?

I see that as more of a gag scene. Monaka survived a punch from Base Goku... & shockwaves came out as if he put a decent amount of power into it.

[Lord Beerus]

You know, I've been re-reading the manga, and I came across in chapter 5, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest! I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB and doesn't this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees? And if not, then just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga?

I see that as more of a gag scene. Monaka survived a punch from Base Goku... & shockwaves came out as if he put a decent amount of power into it.

I'm not sure if we can treat that as a gag at all. They looked pretty damn serious when sparring. Especially with Vegeta pulling out SSJB. I don't think it was played for laughs at all. Goku was legit angry and annoyed that Vegeta pulled that stunt.

[TheMikado]

You know, I've been re-reading the manga, and I came across in chapter 5, when Goku and Vegeta were sparing that Vegeta turned SSJB and blasted with a ki attack Base Goku at point blank range, and while Goku states that Vegeta's attack hurt him, Goku seemed more annoyed than anything else as he quickly recovered like nothing happened. I mean, his clothes weren't even damaged in the slightest! I understand that it was a sparring match, but given how much people were going on about the raw power of SSJB and doesn't this support the notion that you can could lower the strength in SSJB to varying degrees? And if not, then just how strong is Goku is in his base form for an attack from SSJB Vegeta, even in the case of a sparring match, to be more of an mild annoyance to him than actually severally injuring him like it would given the supposed huge gap in strength from base to SSJB tier in the manga?

I see that as more of a gag scene. Monaka survived a punch from Base Goku... & shockwaves came out as if he put a decent amount of power into it.

Well that and it sounds like it was working off of the events of RoF for Gokus base. Probably when they actually got Toriyamas outline they realized the actual intent of the return of the SSJ levels. It simply may have been too late for Toei to make any adjustments.

[amuroray]

Just remembered how on earth did trunk get so strong

He got on shotting by ss3 goku then a couple of episodes later with no training he skips all of the god training etc etc to pass goku and vegeta

Awful. There is no narrative consistency