The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Rocketman]

So how do you fit that in with Roshi being at 139 and Krillin at 206?

[Saiga]

Piccolo defeats all of them with ease except for Tenshinhan, who puts up a good fight, and Kurilin, who defeats him.

Another fight:

Chiaotzu (23rd) vs Chichi (23rd) Who loses worst?

[Rocketman]

Chichi beats the shit out of Chaozu.



Literally.

[Kaboom]

So how do you fit that in with Roshi being at 139 and Krillin at 206?

What, those inferior garbage numbers pulled out of nowhere by a man who obviously didn't do his research? Why bother?

Chiaotzu (23rd) vs Chichi (23rd) Who loses worst?

Has Chaozu ever won any fight that wasn't retarded filler?

Well, he's not starting with this one, I'll tell you what.

[CaBrPi]

So how do you fit that in with Roshi being at 139 and Krillin at 206?

What, those inferior garbage numbers pulled out of nowhere by a man who obviously didn't do his research? Why bother?

Aren't those canon?

But I do agree that Chi-Chi would beat Chaozu. In hilarious fashion, too.

[CatouttaHell]

So how do you fit that in with Roshi being at 139 and Krillin at 206?

I don't really follow those numbers to be honest. It's impossible to make DB work accurately with those numbers IMO.

Not only are they too low but the gaps are completely off considering 23rd TB implications. Tenshinhan one-shotting a guy who Kuririn and Yamucha wanted to gang up on implies a gap far bigger than 1.2x between them IMO.

Everybody who passed the preliminaries at the 23rd TB should be at minimum 20-40x Roshi and at least several notches above Piccolo Daimao IMHO.

Piccolo defeats all of them with ease except for Tenshinhan, who puts up a good fight, and Kurilin, who defeats him.

Another fight:

Chiaotzu (23rd) vs Chichi (23rd) Who loses worst?

Chichi beats Chaozu down. There's no real implications about his power so I just assume he's weaker due to not having passed the preliminaries.

[In Brightest Day]

Mr. Satan:


vs.

Ninja Murasaki:

[Kaboom]

So how do you fit that in with Roshi being at 139 and Krillin at 206?

What, those inferior garbage numbers pulled out of nowhere by a man who obviously didn't do his research? Why bother?

Aren't those canon?

Yes, they are numbers straight out of the manga itself, read plainly and clearly from someone wearing a scouter. They're as "canon" as it gets. I was just being a li'l bit sarcastic.

Anyway, we can still take the numbers both within the manga and guidebooks for early-DB at face value if we simply remind ourselves that... well, it wasn't DBZ. Battles weren't yet all about who had the higher power level, and didn't start being so until around the Piccolo period of the story. Other factors like body size/proportions, physical conditioning, skill, terrain, and so forth, all played just as big if not bigger a part in the outcome of battles.


For example, Muten Roshi is a wise old sennin, so he's probably got lots going for him in terms of Ki. However, his frail old body may hold him back physically, making him seem weaker compared to others than he actually is. After all, Goku and Kuririn's rock-moving feats after their were a lot more impressive than Roshi's was.

For Goku, the opposite would hold true. At the start of the series, his power level is 10, only about double that of the average human. However, he's many times physically more powerful and durable than any regular human, by virtue of being a Saiyan with a straight-up tougher and stronger body.

So Goku vs Jackie Chun at the 21st Tournament could still be an even fight even if Roshi's BP is over a hundred while Goku's could be something like 50.

[Fox666]

If Satan can't defend himself against a handgun, Murasaki would easily kill him with his Shurikens, Kunais and other ninja weapons.

So how do you fit that in with Roshi being at 139 and Krillin at 206?

I don't really follow those numbers to be honest. It's impossible to make DB work accurately with those numbers IMO.

These numbers would more-or-less be Toriyama's ultimatum about who is stronger than who. Why question it?

And may I ask what exactly you follow, if not the manga? If you can't follow the rules of a fictional universe itself, what are you gonna do, write retconning fan-fictions about how everything should really happen?

Not only are they too low but the gaps are completely off considering 23rd TB implications. Tenshinhan one-shotting a guy who Kuririn and Yamucha wanted to gang up on implies a gap far bigger than 1.2x between them IMO.

Everybody who passed the preliminaries at the 23rd TB should be at minimum 20-40x Roshi and at least several notches above Piccolo Daimao IMHO.

The numbers are too low? Gaps? I am sorry, but I think there is no way to measure that, and I have absolutely no idea of what you are relying on.

There is no concrete science behind Ki to prove how much you need to K.O. someone else, mostly because any of these exist in real life. These are the rules Toriyama established for his fictional series, he can do whatever he chooses to.

For example, in Yu Yu Hakusho it appears that a proportional increase in power a lot more effective, considering how colossally stronger Togure gets every 10% more power he uses.

[Saiga]

What about Chiaotzu's paralysis?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Chiaotzu (23rd) vs Chichi (23rd) Who loses worst?

Chaozu would use the paralysis technique, and finish he with Dodonpa. Unless Chi-Chi finds out about Chaozu's math weakness, which I doubt, since Kuririn was just lucky to find it out. And don't forget, Chi-Chi can't use ki, so no ki blasts or Bukujutsu, while Chaozu can use all those.

Mr. Satan:


vs.

Ninja Murasaki:

I guess Satan wins, since he could uncover Murashaki's tricks, like with Cell!

[CatouttaHell]

Master Sergeant Murasaki lolstomps. He actually gave Son Goku a little bit of trouble, even if it was due to his trickery.

Plus he most likely survived a punch from him that sent him flying into a wall hard enough to crack it. Mister Satan has nothing on him.

These numbers would more-or-less be Toriyama's ultimatum about who is stronger than who. Why question it?

And may I ask what exactly you follow, if not the manga? If you can't follow the rules of a fictional universe itself, what are you gonna do, write retconning fan-fictions about how everything should really happen?

The numbers don't match up at all to the story that came before it so I don't follow them. To each their own though.

Tenshinhan (and the rest of the gang I would argue) at the 23rd is implied to be a good deal above Young Piccolo Daimao.

Young Piccolo Daimao is stated to be far above Old Piccolo Daimao, who completely tanked a Kamehameha from Son Goku and asked him if he just did something, while at 40% of his power.

Going by the manga numbers that's impossible unless you believe 139 is Roshi's Super Buff number and that he has like a 10x multiplier for that IMO.

The numbers are too low? Gaps? I am sorry, but I think there is no way to measure that, and I have absolutely no idea of what you are relying on.

There is no concrete science behind Ki to prove how much you need to K.O. someone else, mostly because any of these exist in real life. These are the rules Toriyama established for his fictional series, he can do whatever he chooses to.

For example, in Yu Yu Hakusho it appears that a proportional increase in power a lot more effective, considering how colossally stronger Togure gets every 10% more power he uses.

We have scouter numbers for two arcs, with lots of examples as to what kind of differences mean what.

[Fox666]

The numbers don't match up at all to the story that came before

They don't follow your interpretation of the story. However these numbers are what the author of the manga thinks of the story.

If Toriyama answer is that Tenshinhan did not surpassed Piccolo, I believe on it.

Young Piccolo Daimao is stated to be far above Old Piccolo Daimao, who completely tanked a Kamehameha from Son Goku and asked him if he just did something, while at 40% of his power.

Piccolo said he was using only half of his power before Goku fired the Kamehameha, so perhaps he used more than it to protect himself?

Or Piccolo may simply meant that he was putting half of strength in his attacks, not that he was somehow supressing his Ki. Meaning it won't affect how an attack may hurt him.

Perhaps is it that Goku was so beaten up that he had no strength left?


It doesn't matter. It only proves how ridiculous it is to reduce the whole story to "battle powers", and that you shouldn't read every panel looking for some numerical reference.

Going by the manga numbers that's impossible unless you believe 139 is Roshi's Super Buff number and that he has like a 10x multiplier for that IMO.

They are totally possible because this is a fictional universe.

We have scouter numbers for two arcs, with lots of examples as to what kind of differences mean what.

You are following the illusion that there is some kind of rule estabilishing the proportion beetween one character and another. However the manga is full of flaws in these terms.

If the manga shows Goku with 8,000 fighting toe to toe with Vegeta, however Cui with 18,000 is killed by an ordinary Kiai attack. Which only proves that you shouldn't take the concept of battle power so serious.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Chiaotzu (23rd) vs Chichi (23rd)

I think Chaozu wins pretty easily, without even having to use his paralysis. The only reason he didn't pass the preliminaries was because he went up against cyborg Tao Pai Pai.

Mr. Satan vs. Ninja Murasaki

Sergeant Major Murasaki would win, if only based on his ninjutsu skills. The showboating Mr. Satan, who was downed by a gunshot wound, doesn't seem as if he'd be able to overcome that.

I have another match up.

General Blue vs. Kuririn. Blue can't use his psychic powers, and this is if Goku had never interrupted the fight.

While Blue did appear stronger than Kuririn and was knocking him around, Kuririn is perhaps more skilled in terms of martial arts than him, and managed to land a kick on Blue via Zanzoken. Plus, if Kuririn can land enough hits, Blue might get so pissed off by his face being scarred (like after Kuririn kicked him, he raged over his nosebleed and immediately pulled out his paralysis) that he may lose his head (a la Nappa vs. Goku) and become unable to concentrate.

[dbgtFO]

Piccolo defeats all of them with ease except for Tenshinhan, who puts up a good fight, and Kurilin, who defeats him.

In which way would the weaker Krillin win?

As for my thoughts on Piccolo vs. the fodder.
Piccolo defeats all of them with ease except for Tenshinhan, who manages to defeat him with moderate difficulty.

Another fight:

Chiaotzu (23rd) vs Chichi (23rd) Who loses worst?

Chi Chi loses horribly.

Tenshinhan: “Lord Muten Roshi, are you not going to be entering this time?”
Kame-sennin: “I’m gonna give it a pass. I’m no longer any match for you guys.”

Said before the preliminaries began and should thus IMO include Chaozu, meaning Kamesennin < Chaozu.

So I end up with:
Chi Chi's BP = 130
Kame-sennin's BP = 139
Chaozu's BP = Above 139 to the point, where 139 stands no match against it, but [conjecture] it should be below Yamcha's Early Saiyan Arc BP of 177.[/conjecture]

[Rocketman]

Said before the preliminaries began and should thus IMO include Chaozu

Why? He doesn't care about Chaozu, either as a student or in general. Being weaker than Goku, Krillin, and Yamcha is enough for Roshi to withdraw. Remember the only reason he fought was to teach his students - he forfeited against Tien when he saw there were others in the new generation who could challenge his boys.

[dbgtFO]

You bring up a good point.
I guess, I just always saw it as talking about all of them.

[Saiga]

I have Kurilin as higher than Tenshinhan at the 23rd Budokai, because I compared their respective performances. IMO Kurilin's performance against Ma Junior shows that he has improved a lot and I think he'd be capable of defeating Piccolo Daimao at that point.

Mr. Satan would stomp Ninja Murasaki as although Murasaki was punched into a wall and (probably) survived, Satan was knocked into a mountain (by Cell!) and survived. Sure, Cell wouldn't have been trying, but hitting a mountain at that speed and surviving is an incredibly feat (by "normal" standards).

I think Kurilin would have beaten Blue if Blue didn't have his telekinesis.

Chiaotzu vs Yamcha, Saiyan arc.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Yamcha should win that...unless Chaozu clings to him and explodes

[dbgtFO]

I have Kurilin as higher than Tenshinhan at the 23rd Budokai, because I compared their respective performances. IMO Kurilin's performance against Ma Junior shows that he has improved a lot and I think he'd be capable of defeating Piccolo Daimao at that point.

I'd say it's indicated a bunch of times that Tenshinhan is on a whole other level compared to Krillin, for example Roshi's quote about Goku, Tenshinhan, Shen and Ma Junior being the top masters in the World before the Semi-finals begin is just one of them.
And then 5 years later the early Z battle powers show, where they lie in comparison to each other.

Agreed with Turlast about Yamcha vs. Chaozu.