Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[emperior]

By the way, did episode 88 imply Gohan is now just as strong as he was against Super Buu?

[Arg]

I think in power it is like this:
Gohan normaal < SS1 < Piccolo < SSJ2 < mystic

But in terms of smartnes en moves Piccolo has the upper hand.

Better moves doesn't mean much when most people in Dragon Ball just over power their opponents. Gohan couldn't break free from Piccolo's grasp so that confirms to me that he is above SSJ2 Gohan.

Yup.

More like this:

Gohan normaal < SS1 < SSJ2 < Piccolo ? mystic

[Chillekasper]

I think in power it is like this:
Gohan normaal < SS1 < Piccolo < SSJ2 < mystic

But in terms of smartnes en moves Piccolo has the upper hand.

Better moves doesn't mean much when most people in Dragon Ball just over power their opponents. Gohan couldn't break free from Piccolo's grasp so that confirms to me that he is above SSJ2 Gohan.

Yup.

More like this:

Gohan normaal < SS1 < SSJ2 < Piccolo ? mystic

No, I dont think Piccolo is stronger than SSJ2, i think he is almost as strong as, but not yet. But he has a lot of moves on his sleeve so that is why he won. Its just like Piccolo said; Gohan dont have the heart of a warrior. Gohan is powerfull, but when he dont have the fighting spirit, then he just can lose to weaker opponent like Piccolo.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I actually think it's quite clear that Piccolo is at the very least comparable to SS2 Gohan currently, if not stronger.

Gohan was wondering how the hell his master got this strong. I also don't subscribe to the idea that current SS2 Gohan is at Buu Saga levels, merely that this strength is lower than that of Ultimate. I think I know how to scale everything now.

Bear in mind, this is taking some liberties with the show's somewhat wonky powerscaling, so just follow me on this for now.

===

During RoF, Piccolo and Gohan were both dumped on by Tagoma. Now, Gohan was considered the strongest, but he didn't do much better than Piccolo. I'm gonna make the assumption that the two are equal if Piccolo were to take off his weighted clothes, a.k.a. only equal to SS Goku from the Cell Games, 4 times weaker than SS Goku in the Buu Saga.

By going SS, Gohan gets 50 times stronger. By my estimates, SS Gohan would be about as strong as as SS Gotenks (this also assumes that SS Gotenks is slightly stronger than SS3 Goku from the Buu Saga). The two train together for several months and get stronger. Then Gohan continues to train with Piccolo afterwards and becomes stronger still, but going by the latest episode, still inferior to his Ultimate state from years back.

If Gohan was equal to Gotenks in equivalent forms but is only just now equal to his Ultimate power, how strong did Gohan get?

His SS2 can't be much more than Gotenks's own. If we still subscribe to the old multipliers, then Gohan could only have gotten 3 to 4 times stronger overall since RoF. So where does that leave Piccolo? Well, assuming that Gohan's current SS2 is about 3 times stronger than before, Piccolo may be as strong as SS3 Gotenks.

This is all speculative and probably highly inaccurate, but this is what I got.

[buutenks]

By the way, did episode 88 imply Gohan is now just as strong as he was against Super Buu?

It didn't imply, Piccolo outright stated it.

With that knowledge I can come to the conclusion that base Goku and Vegeta r simply as strong as they want to be. In the anime anyways.

Or a screwed up version of 2 base theory.

[pacz360]

By the way, did episode 88 imply Gohan is now just as strong as he was against Super Buu?

It didn't imply, Piccolo outright stated it.

With that knowledge I can come to the conclusion that base Goku and Vegeta r simply as strong as they want to be. In the anime anyways.

Or a screwed up version of 2 base theory.

I think this is the best answer honestly.

[DBZ Macky]

That's the easy answer, not necessarily the correct one. As far as I can tell, nothing much implies that Goku is much different from his Buu arc self.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That's the easy answer, not necessarily the correct one. As far as I can tell, nothing much implies that Goku is much different from his Buu arc self.

Ahem.......

All of BoG and RoF, the aftermath episodes following the Universe 6/7 Tournament, and recent episodes of the Universal Survival Arc. The intent seems to have changed from the first arc of the anime, with Goku and Vegeta not being at god-level in regular forms, but it's a VERY hard case to make that they're anywhere near their old selves from the Buu Saga beyond their base power at the minimum being comparable to their max power from before.

[DBZ Macky]

Why not? This is Toei we're talking about. Even back in the day Goku and Vegeta could fight against SS3 Gotenks and Chou Gohan in just their regular SS forms. Now they're a bit stronger and can fight them in base.

[Bullza]

Well there was either

1. A retcon after the Universe 6 saga which brought Base Goku and Vegeta out of God level and back to what they were at the start of the series. Similar to what the manga has done.

or

2. There was no retcon. Base Goku is still stronger than Super Saiyan God and he just starts slow/holds back/plays around with pretty much everyone.

Both are equally farfetched but I'd say #1 is more likely. He went from being so strong that SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't so much as budge the equivalent of Base Goku to a Buu saga level Super Saiyan Gohan giving it a good go against Super Saiyan Goku. Amongst several other things too like Krillin and Trunks giving him a bit of a push.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Gohan before this episode was stated to be Ultimate Gohan
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]
so he already at least possessed the power that was unlocked by Elder Kai. He possesses more potential than the power unlocked by Elder Kai, so Super Saiyan still increased his power.

Base Gohan was equal to base Goku, whom was much stronger than Gotenks.

Ultimate Gohan(Full potential)>SSJ2 Gohan>SSJ Gohan>Ultimate Gohan(Pre Piccolo training)=BOG Ultimate Gohan=Boo arc Ultimate Gohan

So "original power" in the context of this episode is talking about the Potential unleashed form itself. The one where he uses all of his potential and has no need for Super Saiyan.

[Overlord78]

Better moves doesn't mean much when most people in Dragon Ball just over power their opponents. Gohan couldn't break free from Piccolo's grasp so that confirms to me that he is above SSJ2 Gohan.

Yup.

More like this:

Gohan normaal < SS1 < SSJ2 < Piccolo ? mystic

No, I dont think Piccolo is stronger than SSJ2, i think he is almost as strong as, but not yet. But he has a lot of moves on his sleeve so that is why he won. Its just like Piccolo said; Gohan dont have the heart of a warrior. Gohan is powerfull, but when he dont have the fighting spirit, then he just can lose to weaker opponent like Piccolo.

Again better moves don't mean anything in the long run when you can just overpower your opponent. This is what Dragon Ball has always been about so Piccolo is stronger than SSJ2 Gohan. If Gohan was stronger he would have forced his way out but he couldn't.

[Marlowe89]

Gohan before this episode was stated to be Ultimate Gohan
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

I seriously hope you realize that that's a "scoop" advertisement on future content, not some statement on episodes that already aired at the time. The whole thing even teases characters that haven't even been introduced yet.

So "original power" in the context of this episode is talking about the Potential unleashed form itself.

It's really not. Goku mentioned "original power", but later Piccolo told Gohan "You can't even evoke your original strength" - nobody said "original form", "original potential" or "original multiplier", Piccolo was simply talking about how strong Gohan originally was.

It's utterly baffling to me that a couple of people in this thread are attempting to deny such a clear, direct confirmation. Gohan wasn't just implied to have become weaker than his Buu arc self, he was flat-out stated to be.

[buutenks]

Well there was either

1. A retcon after the Universe 6 saga which brought Base Goku and Vegeta out of God level and back to what they were at the start of the series. Similar to what the manga has done.

or

2. There was no retcon. Base Goku is still stronger than Super Saiyan God and he just starts slow/holds back/plays around with pretty much everyone.

Both are equally farfetched but I'd say #1 is more likely. He went from being so strong that SSJ3 Gotenks couldn't so much as budge the equivalent of Base Goku to a Buu saga level Super Saiyan Gohan giving it a good go against Super Saiyan Goku. Amongst several other things too like Krillin and Trunks giving him a bit of a push.

1 is impossible since base Goku recently fought a powered up Mr Buu.

So Nr. 2 is most likely. Basically Goku and Vegeta r just dicking around to much. That would also go hand in hand with Trunks' inability to sense god ki in base form prior to his ssj rage power up. He simply was at buu saga levels, while Goku who was above that in base simply regressed his power to that of Trunks so he can tell Goku how strong Goku Black is. Plus Vegeta also says in same episode that ssj3 is barely the tip of the iceberg in comparison to Goku's real power. And based on what Trunks told them after the power comparison, Goku and Vegeta thought it would be a breeze to stomp Black.

[apex_pretador]

Some notable points from this episode:

- Gohan said he wanted to become "even stronger". Therefore, this acknowledges his several month training past RoF, so he is stronger than he was back then.
- It was also emphasized that he was not lacking power.
- Piccolo acts a bit shocked for a moment when gohan goes super saiyan, but then goes back to normal instantly. Does this imply he is surprised by Gohan's Super Saiyan state?
- It is confirmed that Gohan was not or hasn't been as strong as Mystic since long time. Therefore, either Gohan's super saiyan states are nowhere near as good boost as they used to be, or Lavender is a joke compared to Basil and Bergamo.
- Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was losing to Piccolo.
- Gohan can't believe Piccolo's power level. So, this means Piccolo has far surpassed his past self
- Piccolo fights ultimate gohan for hours off panel
- Piccolo says that this power is not the limit for gohan, and they both training together will break the limit.



The chain looks like:

U Gohan >= Piccolo > SS2 Gohan (Current) > SS Gohan (Current) > Majin buu (Fat buu) > U6 arc Piccolo > base gohan current) > SS Gohan (RoF) > Tagoma > RoF Piccolo > SS kid trunks >> #18 > Krillin

Piccolo finally surpassing buu looks likely.



As for goku and Vegeta, their battles can never be used as an indication for power levels.

- Goku exchanged blows with assaault form frost and then transformed to super saiyan. Vegeta also transformed against weakened frost.
- Vegeta transformed against Cabba to super saiyan and to SSB
- Goku transformed against trunks and zamasu
- Goku transformed against Gohan
- Goku transformed against Bergamo
- He transformed against Krillin
- He used SSB against 17


So, basically, Goku can fight anyone with any form.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I seriously hope you realize that that's a "scoop" advertisement on future content, not some statement on episodes that already aired at the time. The whole thing even teases characters that haven't even been introduced yet.

The article released before Gohan's match with Lavender and the designs are the same. It's stated that Ultimate Gohan is defined by the artwork. Any Gohan that matches that specific art is Ultimate Gohan. The Ultimate Gohan we saw this episode and the one in the article aren't the same design.

The Gohan shown with no bang and his fathers gi=Ultimate Gohan

He was Ultimate before this episode. He had the power unlocked by Elder Kai, but that's not currently all of his potential power, so Super Saiyan was still useful.

It's really not. Goku mentioned "original power", but later Piccolo told Gohan "You can't even evoke your original strength" - nobody said "original form", "original potential" or "original multiplier", Piccolo was simply talking about how strong Gohan originally was.

It's utterly baffling to me that a couple of people in this thread are attempting to deny such a clear, direct confirmation. Gohan wasn't just implied to have become weaker than his Buu arc self, he was flat-out stated to be.

He's stated & shown to be Ultimate before training with Piccolo according to the statements and designs.
The Potential unleashed state is his original power or original strength. There's no difference between the terms. Just like in the Boo arc, he regained his full power Potential unleashed state and no longer needs Super Saiyan.

[SaiyanGod117]

So it seems to me before this episode, Gohan's power was around his SSJ2 Buu Saga self. Now his power is exactly at how it was during the later parts of the Buu Saga.

[Marlowe89]

There's no difference between the terms.

When did I say there was a difference? The word "power" is ambiguous enough in that it can either refer to a specific ability/form or it can refer to strength, but Piccolo elaborates even further in the same episode and says "strength" outright. There is NO ambiguity here - Gohan simply wasn't as strong as he was originally, prior to unlocking his utmost form.

That's all there is to it. People can pretend that Piccolo was talking about his potential or something if they want but that's not what is presented in the episode's dialogue at all. It's very clear-cut.

Plus Vegeta also says in same episode that ssj3 is barely the tip of the iceberg in comparison to Goku's real power.

What makes you think that was a statement about base Goku? Vegeta was most likely referring to Super Saiyan Blue there.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So it seems to me before this episode, Gohan's power was around his SSJ2 Buu Saga self. Now his power is exactly at how it was during the later parts of the Buu Saga.

I don't think it was. Toei has acknowledged Gohan's training with Piccolo ever since the events of RoF, and that was when he was about even in base form with his mentor; his Super Saiyan power just wasn't up to his full Ultimate potential at the time.

I think it's safer to say that Gohan is close to Super Buu as a SS2, and that he needed one last push to re-unlock Ultimate.

[pacz360]

I feel like piccolo isn't far from mystic gohan from this episode they continue fight again until the night and going by what piccolo said he help gohan get much stronger than he is now at least until goku comes into the fray in episode 90