Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[pacz360]

Base Saiyans without Saiyan beyond God aren't dozens of times stronger than their BoG self's. That should be obvious by now.

There's also the fact that Kuririn wasn't completely stomped by Basil in the mental training Goku and Gohan had.

I failed to see how that means anything krillin had to rely on skill and techniques to stand a chance against basil and even then basil still laughed at krillin attacks as it didn't do shit to him.
There's no saiyans beyond god in goku and vegeta base form are simply that strong.

There is a Saiyan beyond God. The manga proved as much with Black.

Question: Who is stronger between these two: SSJ Cabba or Magetta?

How exactly? besides manga power levels are different when ssj3 goku was equal with trunks in the manga while in the anime he one shot him in his ssj3 form.

[Marlowe89]

Whether there are two bases or not (and there may not be), I've attempted to analyze the differences in strength between characters from as many angles as possible and I'm personally just not seeing any reason to believe that the anime's power scale is dramatically different from the manga's power scale at this point. Certain people try to dispute this by saying that they shouldn't be similar because they're two different mediums, but that's hardly a counterargument when you consider that different adaptations in the shounen genre almost always try to adopt the same power scale in order to provide a sense of cohesiveness for their respective franchises even when there are some occasional discrepancies. We do know that there's some level of communication between Toei, Toyotaro, and Toriyama.

Moreover, there's simply too much support for the similarity between them now. Trunks could push Goku back in Super Saiyan 2, Goku powered up to Super Saiyan against Gohan after Gohan told him not to hold back and the two proceeded to have an even match in which both of them were fighting to the point that they weren't even conscious of their surroundings, Majin Buu managed to hurt Goku during their sparring match, the series' deities noted Goku to have reached "the level of the gods" (a term that was first used in the BoG arc to refer to Super Saiyan God) only after he transformed into Super Saiyan Blue, and now there's a myriad of implications that come with Gohan reobtaining his original strength. Even as far back as RoF, Super Saiyan Blue was said to have surpassed even Super Saiyan God as if it was some noteworthy feat. My only response to this is "How much more proof is needed until we can reach a consensus?" because the whole argument is seemingly becoming an exercise in futility. I don't mean to sound condescending to anyone when I say that, but it just doesn't seem reasonable to try and posit all sorts of complicated reasons Goku and Vegeta might be holding back all the time when a much simpler, more obvious solution is constantly presented to us by the show directly. Those who do this sort of thing seem to be taking their conclusion for granted and then working backwards to support and defend it, which is never the right way to approach these discussions.

Yes, there are some inconsistencies - and I won't excuse that from a critical standpoint - but when it comes to authorial intent, consistency isn't a black and white issue. The question, then, should be which interpretation is more consistently shown than the other? More importantly, which interpretation is more recently portrayed? I think the answer to that question is abundantly clear; perhaps clearer than it ever has been.

[TheMikado]

I wasn't serious, I was just pointing out either way you have to jump through hoops. It's ultimately a question of which hoops and how many you prefer to jump through.

[buutenks]

I wasn't serious, I was just pointing out either way you have to jump through hoops. It's ultimately a question of which hoops and how many you prefer to jump through.

Pretty much this. Super power scaling is so inconsistent that you can choose how strong the chars are TBH. And that isn't helping us one bit.

[ZombieVito]

I wasn't serious, I was just pointing out either way you have to jump through hoops. It's ultimately a question of which hoops and how many you prefer to jump through.

Pretty much this. Super power scaling is so inconsistent that you can choose how strong the chars are TBH. And that isn't helping us one bit.

Seems pretty consistent to me with Saiyan beyond God.

[avasatu]

I'm going back a few pages here, but I have two questions:

1) For those who say base Goku isn't too far above Buu saga base Goku, how do you reconcile, among other things, the fact that Goku beat a substantially improved Hit during their second fight without using KK after barely losing in 10x KK form during their first fight? Surely this implies Goku is at least 10 times stronger than U6 when he fought Hit the second time, unless you believe this increase in power only got stamped onto the blue form. And this is only Goku's increases during that one small period of time.

2) What are the known issues with the two-base theory? I can't seem to find a comprehensive list or summary, and this is the theory I'm most likely going to subscribe to unless someone can wreck it for me. I'm on the fence!

[ZombieVito]

I'm going back a few pages here, but I have two questions:

1) For those who say base Goku isn't too far above Buu saga base Goku, how do you reconcile, among other things, the fact that Goku beat a substantially improved Hit during their second fight without using KK after barely losing in 10x KK form during their first fight? Surely this implies Goku is at least 10 times stronger than U6 when he fought Hit the second time, unless you believe this increase in power only got stamped onto the blue form. And this is only Goku's increases during that one small period of time.

2) What are the known issues with the two-base theory? I can't seem to find a comprehensive list or summary, and this is the theory I'm most likely going to subscribe to unless someone can wreck it for me. I'm on the fence!

1) Not necessarily. Goku only said that Hit shouldn't bother with the time-skip because he won't work against him anymore. He never said that was the case because of the Kaioken. In the next episode he even broke his technique with an explosion of Ki. Maybe that's what he was talking about.

2) The only "issue" is that it hasn't been named or stated outside of videogames. That's it. In any case the manga already proved that they can access the power of SSG in base (i.e. Saiyan beyond God).

[Chillekasper]

Gohan will surpass Goku!

[emperior]

The more I think about it the more the two base theory makes sense. I mean, in RoF it never felt like Goku got more than a 50x increase when he transformed, and it would make him way too powerful if he jumped from below Namek Freezer to above SSJ3 Gotenks just in his base. That's more than a 400x increase. Do you really believe Beerus is above a Goku whose now more than 400 times stronger than he was a SSG?
Because we know SSJ2 Goku is still a 100x multiplier so Blue should still be a 40'000+ multiplier unless now the multiplier for god forms is lower (SSG Goku was way above Vegetto's power and he got so strong he couldn't believe such a level of power even existed)
Also, outside of Copy saga, Vegeta and Goku never showed that super powerful base again after RoF (not even against Hit as Hit told Goku to transform)
It seems like Toriyama retconned Goku and Vegeta's base power to their Buu saga level (they are a little above it now that they got stronger though, but surely their bases aren't 400+ times stronger than before) to bring back the old SSJ forms for a more entertaining story and to also allow some comparisions such as Cabba = Vegeta and that Trunks spar with Goku. That's why Buu and Ultimate Gohan are still considered that strong.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I personally can never see it. Yeah, I too believe there was a retcon at some point, possibly even as early as RoF, to not have Goku and Vegeta at god-level.

But to have them all the way down to BoG base levels or slightly above it? To me, anyways, that devalues the entire point of the lead-up and payoff of RoF, Goku and Vegeta becoming so strong that even the newly trained Freeza can only rival them in base form, and surpasses them only in his Golden Evolution.

As well, Saiyan Beyond God, to me at least, is being used too arbitrarily to explain things. I try to use Occam's Razor whenever possible, which is what the series itself does too based on what most people believe the implied intent to be around here.

What are the simplest conclusions currently? Goku and Vegeta are stronger than ever, but require SSB to surpass SSG. Skill and tactics can be just as important as power if the setup benefits them, such as a tournament with strict rules where martial arts and cunning matter. Goku likes having fights, regardless of his relative strength to everyone else.

[Hugo Boss]

This episode to me fixed all the issues with Super's scaling. Now about Goku and Vegeta, I think they just like to even things out, so they hold back allot.

I think the upcoming episode with Gohan vs Goku will shed more light on this.

Where did you hear that from? I scrolled the official anouncement thread and the website main page and found nothing.

[Bullza]

I'm going back a few pages here, but I have two questions:

1) For those who say base Goku isn't too far above Buu saga base Goku, how do you reconcile, among other things, the fact that Goku beat a substantially improved Hit during their second fight without using KK after barely losing in 10x KK form during their first fight? Surely this implies Goku is at least 10 times stronger than U6 when he fought Hit the second time, unless you believe this increase in power only got stamped onto the blue form. And this is only Goku's increases during that one small period of time.

If Super Saiyan Blue isn't a multiplier then it's fine. Blue Goku might have been 10 times stronger but that doesn't necessarily mean that Base or Super Saiyan Goku would be 10 times stronger either.

The God power that he absorbed is a different source of power that he has within himself. It can probably improve and grow separately from Goku's own basic power.

Which could also explain why Super Saiyan Rose Black wasn't as much stronger compared to Blue Goku as Base Black was to Base Goku.

2) What are the known issues with the two-base theory? I can't seem to find a comprehensive list or summary, and this is the theory I'm most likely going to subscribe to unless someone can wreck it for me. I'm on the fence!

Mainly the fact that being realistic it doesn't exist whatsoever. No such thing was ever said or implied, not just in 80+ episodes of the anime but in the manga or the movies or anything.

Base Goku was made super strong from the Battle of Gods saga to the end of the Copy Water arc. Then they realised he wasn't supposed to be that strong so starting with the Future Trunks saga he was nerfed back to what he was at before he was absorbed any power.

He doesn't switch back and forth from strong to weak Bases. He had a weak Base, absorbed the power of God and then had a strong Base and then they realised they'd done wrong so put him back to the weak Base.

[dbgtFO]

This episode to me fixed all the issues with Super's scaling. Now about Goku and Vegeta, I think they just like to even things out, so they hold back allot.

I think the upcoming episode with Gohan vs Goku will shed more light on this.

Where did you hear that from? I scrolled the official anouncement thread and the website main page and found nothing.

It's there on the page before last.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30157&start=39340#p1303319

[LowRyder2005]

Mainly the fact that being realistic it doesn't exist whatsoever. No such thing was ever said or implied, not just in 80+ episodes of the anime but in the manga or the movies or anything.

I suppose this, as well. The theory itself is mostly a fanmade patch to address something that's perceived by most as a not-so-soft retcon. If you try to see it contextually, it's a mere rationalization of Super's writing issues.

[Marlowe89]

What are the simplest conclusions currently? Goku and Vegeta are stronger than ever, but require SSB to surpass SSG.

That's the conclusion I believe Toei/Toyotaro/Toriyama wants us to draw, yeah. For Toei's part, barring a few moments of confusion, I think this has been intended since the U6 Tournament and possibly even as early as RoF.

I suppose this, as well. The theory itself is mostly a fanmade patch to address something that's perceived by most as a not-so-soft retcon. If you try to see it contextually, it's a mere rationalization of Super's writing issues.

I originally subscribed to the theory because of a scene in episode 20 where Goku and Vegeta both appear to manifest God ki in base during a sparring match. However, that scene hasn't been elaborated any further or even touched on in nearly 70 episodes, so at this point it's probably safe to say that Goku doesn't have a second "God" base. I think that the possibility is still on the table, however unlikely it might be, but it seems to have become an implausible one at best.

[TheMikado]

2) What are the known issues with the two-base theory? I can't seem to find a comprehensive list or summary, and this is the theory I'm most likely going to subscribe to unless someone can wreck it for me. I'm on the fence!

Mainly the fact that being realistic it doesn't exist whatsoever. No such thing was ever said or implied, not just in 80+ episodes of the anime but in the manga or the movies or anything.

Base Goku was made super strong from the Battle of Gods saga to the end of the Copy Water arc. Then they realised he wasn't supposed to be that strong so starting with the Future Trunks saga he was nerfed back to what he was at before he was absorbed any power.

He doesn't switch back and forth from strong to weak Bases. He had a weak Base, absorbed the power of God and then had a strong Base and then they realised they'd done wrong so put him back to the weak Base.

While I agree it doesn't exist in any form, They really messed up between Rof to Champa to Copy water arc. In RoF they are super strong and then the Champa arc seems when Toriyama wanted to go back to normal base levels, then they ran the Copy Water Arc which elevated them again, and then the Future Trunks arc brought them back down again. Of course we then have the other power level shenanigans where God forms seemed to have gotten nerfed considerably from Future Trunks arc onward... or at least that level of power is fairly easily accessible to anyone. The idea of them having the ability to switch back and forth is the only way, in universe, to partially rectify the scaling and story. It's true it doesn't actually exist at all in the anime but its literally all we've got.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

While I agree it doesn't exist in any form, They really messed up between Rof to Champa to Copy water arc. In RoF they are super strong and then the Champa arc seems when Toriyama wanted to go back to normal base levels, then they ran the Copy Water Arc which elevated them again, and then the Future Trunks arc brought them back down again. Of course we then have the other power level shenanigans where God forms seemed to have gotten nerfed considerably from Future Trunks arc onward... or at least that level of power is fairly easily accessible to anyone. The idea of them having the ability to switch back and forth is the only way, in universe, to partially rectify the scaling and story. It's true it doesn't actually exist at all in the anime but its literally all we've got.

Which also comes with its own fair share of problems, mainly the "why" of it all, and how it creates situations that are completely nonsensical anyways in terms of selective powerscaling, were the idea to exist in-universe.

Luckily, most people don't seem to be watching and enjoying Super for its powerscaling.

[TheMikado]

While I agree it doesn't exist in any form, They really messed up between Rof to Champa to Copy water arc. In RoF they are super strong and then the Champa arc seems when Toriyama wanted to go back to normal base levels, then they ran the Copy Water Arc which elevated them again, and then the Future Trunks arc brought them back down again. Of course we then have the other power level shenanigans where God forms seemed to have gotten nerfed considerably from Future Trunks arc onward... or at least that level of power is fairly easily accessible to anyone. The idea of them having the ability to switch back and forth is the only way, in universe, to partially rectify the scaling and story. It's true it doesn't actually exist at all in the anime but its literally all we've got.

Which also comes with its own fair share of problems, mainly the "why" of it all, and how it creates situations that are completely nonsensical anyways in terms of selective powerscaling, were the idea to exist in-universe.

Luckily, most people don't seem to be watching and enjoying Super for its powerscaling.

Can you explain with some examples?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

While I agree it doesn't exist in any form, They really messed up between Rof to Champa to Copy water arc. In RoF they are super strong and then the Champa arc seems when Toriyama wanted to go back to normal base levels, then they ran the Copy Water Arc which elevated them again, and then the Future Trunks arc brought them back down again. Of course we then have the other power level shenanigans where God forms seemed to have gotten nerfed considerably from Future Trunks arc onward... or at least that level of power is fairly easily accessible to anyone. The idea of them having the ability to switch back and forth is the only way, in universe, to partially rectify the scaling and story. It's true it doesn't actually exist at all in the anime but its literally all we've got.

Which also comes with its own fair share of problems, mainly the "why" of it all, and how it creates situations that are completely nonsensical anyways in terms of selective powerscaling, were the idea to exist in-universe.

Luckily, most people don't seem to be watching and enjoying Super for its powerscaling.

Can you explain with some examples?

For example, when Goku is fighting Hit, the theory posits that Saiyan Beyond God is the ONLY way that Goku did so well against Hit before going SSB, that it wasn't his skill alone in figuring out how to counter the Time-Skip that allowed him to take on Hit so as to not waste energy transforming.

As well, Goku couldn't have possibly fought against opponents like Bergamo on his own. Saiyan Beyond God would be used to try and justify why he could fight against the strongest of three brothers that are within Majin Buu's range of power, rather than his strength just being stronger overall.

It's not the idea itself I hate, it's the fact that it's being used to arbitrarily select power levels in instances rather than make sense of it in an overall sense. If there was precedence set for the idea in-universe, I might take it more seriously. But as far as the narrative is concerned, there isn't any precedent for it.

[Ki Breaker]

So how strong is super Saiyan blue now compared to SSG?

Do we any concrete knowledge? Because it seems it's as strong as it needs to be while simultaneously remaining weaker than berrus