"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Yep.

Toriyama flat out stated he thought that Goku wouldn't need to transform into SS2/3 anymore following the events of Battle Of Gods:

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

He'd only need Super Saiyan for the purpose of would later become Super Saiyan Blue, but that was as much action as the golden SSJ forms originally planned to get. Toriyama seemed to displayed no intention of Goku using the other original golden SSJ forms in an actual fighting capacity in potential future material but something obviously changed.

Didn't need doesn't mean he would get rid of them or Goku couldn't used them.

Also, "so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more."

This is the key word you're ignoring. And Goku for the most part in Super haven't used Super Saiyan 2 or 3. You can count on your hand how many times he used them.

The rest was fan assumption since Toriyama never said "only need Super Saiyan for the purpose of would later become Super Saiyan Blue".

[TheSaiyanGod]

Training 1 year in RoSaT, with Gohan and realize that the best way to get used to the SSJ is to stay in the transformation as long as possible is ONE THING.

Now dominate the SSB form without undergoing any kind of training like Vegeta, and gain an absurd boost of power?
Are you telling me that Goku has always had this strength Since the beginning of the Black Saga? A force capable of rivaling Merged Zamasu? That does not make sense.
The perfect control of the SSB is a very interesting concept, and a Power boost would also give that transformation a greater potential, but give it to Goku in that way, and still make it increase so much power does not make sense, at least for me.

Of course I'm saying this before leaving the full manga, that's what I imagine

You keep on pushing this boost of power thing like its been stated but it was not, Goku is just able to fight at a 100% all the time, there was no indication of a power boost until a missing chapter says so.
Why does it not make sense if he had this power before hand? he had SSJBKK in the anime that knocked the ring of light out of Zamasu but didnt use it against Black (which makes it more worst in the anime because Black pissed him off and yet didnt use SSJBKK)
We still have no idea on how Goku got it, if it was while he was fighting or he had it all along.

That's why I ask you.
Do you think Goku has this power since the beginning of the Saga?

He did not train or anything. He even asked if it was better for him to fight alongside Vegeta after Black turns into SSJ Rosé, went back to the past once to learn Mafuba, and left Vegeta with Black.
It would be much better if Trunks was able to heal Vegeta and the two would fight together to save time, and in the end Trunks himself would finalize everything.

But there is no way that Goku will be able to rival Zamasu, and as you said, he just dominated the SSB form.
The only explanation for this is if there was a Power Boost, something unconfirmed

[HeroR]

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

And this was after Toriyama stated that Goku had absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, had made it his own and wouldn't need to transform into Super Saiyan God again:

I think you’ll understand if you watch [the movie], but Goku has already absorbed [Super Saiyan] God’s power and made it his own, so there is no need for him to transform into [Super Saiyan] God. Goku basically only thinks of fighting as a sporting match, so borrowing the power of five people isn’t fair, and he resisted doing that; however, it seems his curiosity towards the realm that lay even further beyond him won out.

Yes, Super Saiyan God. Nothing about normal Super Saiyan.

[TheMikado]

Yes and no. The narrative is definitely jacked because of it, however what really screwed the pooch for the anime was the SSG/Two base shenanigans. These kinds of garbage ass pulls are already bad enough on their own, but the anime and Toei have the added issue of having no idea how strong the characters are actually suppose to be at any given time.
That actually makes it so bad as a negative that it turns into a positive because everything is so vague that viewers are forced to ignore it and enjoy it as presented.

I think that's why we have wildly different opinion. One group has literally become immune to it all and just enjoying the ride. I've actually been complaining less and moving more to that side because I can't even really feel outraged over anything that happens anymore.

In all fairness, the anime got fucked over when Toriyama decided to bring back the original SSJ forms to keep Goku and Vegeta below Beerus, as is his current intention with the current power hierarchy of Goku and Vegeta surpassing Beerus. And that tidbit was provided after the BOG and ROF retelling, where the whole 6-10-15 was still applicable. So it was obvious that Toriyama had a last minute change of heart on how strong he wanted Goku and Vegeta to be in the new material. And because of this Toei and Toyotaro had to all of a sudden drastically change the power hierarchy and influx of the power scaling in narrative(s).

Everything about this decision caught Toei and Toyotaro incredibly off guard. But Toei got fucked over the hardest by this because this change in the power scaling happened right after the events of Resurrection F. And by that time Toei already had several episodes scripted and several episodes in the animation process based off of Toriyama's previous mentality. So they pretty much had to roll with the idea that Goku was incredibly strong in his Base form until the concept of the the Future Trunks arc threw an almighty spanner in the their approach to battle powers, and they had no other but to quietly retcon Goku's strength.

Basically, and both the anime and manga were caught up in the middle of the this mess of Toriyama arbitrarily changing how strong he wanted to make the cast. With the anime having the whole "SSJ2 Raging Vegeta = 10% Beerus" moment and the manga having Base Goku practically no sell a ki blast attack at point blank range from SSJB Vegeta. Both the anime and the manga got fucked over by Toriyama's indecisiveness. But the format of the manga Toyotaro's role within it allows any change to be more easy and fluid, while the weekly anime, that has episodes written and animation produced several weeks in advance, would have a tougher time dealing with this. Although, you could argue that even Toyotaro did handle this change gracefully because nothing has still contradicted or explained what we saw in chapter five of the manga with Goku practically no-selling a ki-blast at point blank range from SSJB after the events of Resurrection F in-universe.

It's all a combination case of lack of proper communication, along with Toriyama having a very late change of heart in the perspective for how he thought the narrative should have been handled. Toriyama obviously wanted to bring back the golden SSJ forms and it was in the plot outline so neither Toei or Toyotaro could ignore it and just had to find a way to roll with it.

No offense, but this is all assumption with no backing.

Toriyama never said he was getting rid of the golden Super Saiyan forms. That has always been an assumption made by fans when they say Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and they don't want to let this mindset go.

Regardless of whether Toriyama changed his mind or whatever happened in pre production. The issue with Toei and why I hate the anime is that they seemed to be so eager to get the anime out the door and cash in that they didn't have all the nuts and bolts in place before it started airing. We all deserved better than what we are getting and that's why I hate the overall Super series.

[Overlord78]

Another month goes by and it looks like this is another shit chapter. Why am I even surprised anymore.

[Kanassa]

Why does it not make sense if he had this power before hand? he had SSJBKK in the anime that knocked the ring of light out of Zamasu but didnt use it against Black (which makes it more worst in the anime because Black pissed him off and yet didnt use SSJBKK)

In the anime, it was already established how much of a drain Kaioken had on Goku when using Blue at the same time, threatening to make his body completely unable to ever fight again if he used it too much. So, he only uses it against Zamasu when he's desperate and even then in short bursts. Though he seems to have improved upon Kaioken by the time of the TOP arc where he makes no hesitation to use it against strong opponents. It's like when Kaioken was first introduced, he knew how dangerous it was and only used it when he was pushed by Vegeta, before being able to more easily use it against Frieza.

So far, the manga seems to be implying that this SSB perfection takes away from the draining effect of blue (Like Mastered Super Saiyan in the Cell Saga), thus making it much more convenient to use. Though, we should wait for the full translations before we see if it is so or not.

[SansrivaaL]

That's why I ask you.
Do you think Goku has this power since the beginning of the Saga?

He did not train or anything. He even asked if it was better for him to fight alongside Vegeta after Black turns into SSJ Rosé, went back to the past once to learn Mafuba, and left Vegeta with Black.
It would be much better if Trunks was able to heal Vegeta and the two would fight together to save time, and in the end Trunks himself would finalize everything.

But there is no way he could hit that blow in Zamasu since he was much inferior and as you said, he just dominated the SSB form.
The only explanation for this is if there was a Power Boost, something unconfirmed

I dont know, he could have learned it while fighting with Zamasu and Merged Zamasu.

Because there is no other way to defeat Zamasu since he is immortal and he's the only one willing to learn the mafuuba since Vegeta was bent up on fighting Black.
He cant heal 2 people and healing 1 drains him out so I dont see 2v1 assault happening.

Yes he was inferior because at that time they have not perfected SSJB yet, the power overflows so they couldnt fight at a 100% all the time, which now Goku can so he can hit and tank Zamasu's hits, because he is at 100% SSJB all the time.

[SansrivaaL]

In the anime, it was already established how much of a drain Kaioken had on Goku when using Blue at the same time, threatening to make his body completely unable to ever fight again if he used it too much. So, he only uses it against Zamasu when he's desperate and even then in short bursts. Though he seems to have improved upon Kaioken by the time of the TOP arc where he makes no hesitation to use it against strong opponents. It's like when Kaioken was first introduced, he knew how dangerous it was and only used it when he was pushed by Vegeta, before being able to more easily use it against Frieza.

So far, the manga seems to be implying that this SSB perfection takes away from the draining effect of blue (Like Mastered Super Saiyan in the Cell Saga), thus making it much more convenient to use. Though, we should wait for the full translations before we see if it is so or not.

Desperation can actually have you think clearly... why would he need to go SSJBKK against Zamasu if all he needed to do was fuse with Vegeta? while rage can just make you go "YOU MFCKER, I DONT CARE IF MY BODY GETS DESTROYED, I. WILL. END YOU"

[Zephyr]

I can't hear all of the whining over how awesome this panel is:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Lord Beerus]

Yep.

Toriyama flat out stated he thought that Goku wouldn't need to transform into SS2/3 anymore following the events of Battle Of Gods:

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.

He'd only need Super Saiyan for the purpose of would later become Super Saiyan Blue, but that was as much action as the golden SSJ forms originally planned to get. Toriyama seemed to displayed no intention of Goku using the other original golden SSJ forms in an actual fighting capacity in potential future material but something obviously changed.

Didn't need doesn't mean he would get rid of them or Goku couldn't used them.

Also, "so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more."

This is the key word you're ignoring. And Goku for the most part in Super haven't used Super Saiyan 2 or 3. You can count on your hand how many times he used them.

The rest was fan assumption since Toriyama never said "only need Super Saiyan for the purpose of would later become Super Saiyan Blue".

That doesn't ignore the fact that Toriyama wasn't planning for Goku to use SSJ2 or SSJ3.

[Kanassa]

Desperation can actually have you think clearly... why would he need to go SSJBKK against Zamasu if all he needed to do was fuse with Vegeta? while rage can just make you go "YOU MFCKER, I DONT CARE IF MY BODY GETS DESTROYED, I. WILL. END YOU"

Rage can, but in this instance, it didn't.

Also, this makes the last chapter even more stupid if Goku knew this perfected shit before they fused as neither wanted to fuse in that chapter and wanted to take on Zamasu 1v1.

I can't hear all of the whining over how awesome this panel is:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Vegeta: I did it first!
Goku: NOT CANNON, ASSHOLE!

[OLKv3]

This panel does look great
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[Totamo]

Yep.

Toriyama flat out stated he thought that Goku wouldn't need to transform into SS2/3 anymore following the events of Battle Of Gods:

He'd only need Super Saiyan for the purpose of would later become Super Saiyan Blue, but that was as much action as the golden SSJ forms originally planned to get. Toriyama seemed to displayed no intention of Goku using the other original golden SSJ forms in an actual fighting capacity in potential future material but something obviously changed.

Didn't need doesn't mean he would get rid of them or Goku couldn't used them.

Also, "so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more."

This is the key word you're ignoring. And Goku for the most part in Super haven't used Super Saiyan 2 or 3. You can count on your hand how many times he used them.

The rest was fan assumption since Toriyama never said "only need Super Saiyan for the purpose of would later become Super Saiyan Blue".

That doesn't ignore the fact that Toriyama wasn't planning for Goku to use SSJ2 or SSJ3.

I don't think the man was planning for any of this which is not new, Toriyama always writes on the fly. the man would wait 2 days before his due date to make something.

toriyama contradicting himself that's also nothing new, the man has admitted to that.


The cell and buu saga were littered with stupid nonsense but I don't remember any of that being this bad, and don't say because of editors because they made it that it that bad at least the cell saga.

[dbgtFO]

I can't hear all of the whining over how awesome this panel is:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Nah, it's ruined by Goku being punched by a right hand, when Zamasu threw a punch with his left hand(Toyotaro made a similar mistake earlier in the arc).

[Lord Beerus]

I can't hear all of the whining over how awesome this panel is:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Nah, it's ruined by Goku being punched by a right hand, when Zamasu threw a punch with his left hand(Toyotaro made a similar mistake earlier in the arc).

Wow. I didn't pick up on that until you literally pointed it out.

[The gr]

Another month goes by and it looks like this is another shit chapter. Why am I even surprised anymore.

Oh tell me where did you read it, because I want to see translation your reading

I told everyone that this is gonna end in June because this chapter ended here ,I can't wait for next month to trunk pull out a mystic form and decapitate black and kill zamasu with a genkidama shiruken , sorry lord Beerus but shiruken≥sword

[zamasu121]

So apparently Trunks had healing powers all along, and Goku mastered ssb, so all this time he was stronger than black........

[The gr]

So apparently Trunks had healing powers all along, and Goku mastered ssb, so all this time he was stronger than black........

I think trunk gave his power to Goku, similar to Piccolo and krillin in Namek, let's not jump into the train yet, let's wait for a translation

[TheMikado]

I can't hear all of the whining over how awesome this panel is:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Nah, it's ruined by Goku being punched by a right hand, when Zamasu threw a punch with his left hand(Toyotaro made a similar mistake earlier in the arc).

Wow. I didn't pick up on that until you literally pointed it out.

Haha maybe the other hand is going through a portal too while to left hand is actually punching the editor in the nuts.

Can't say I like this much either, but I wonder if Toriyama just wrote that Merged Zamasu gets the ability to open random portals without any detail on how or why or what they're used for.

[MisteryOne]

So could Goku use this 100% SSB form since the start of the arc?

It seems like the most logical conclusion. Thinking about it, Goku never fought Black, amd instead faced Zamasu in battles more based in strategy and tecniques than in raw power. He later uses the Mafuba, which forces him to use SSG and only go Blue when he was fighting Merged Zamasu alone in the previous chapter. And thinking about it, he did a pretty impressive job considering he wasso tired. It also makes sense that he prefered to fuse instead of using this form since Vegetto was still way stronger. Maybe he can do it unlike Vegeta because he passed trough the ritual?

However, despite making way more sense than the Gendi-asspull-sword and any of Trunks' asspulls...I hate it. This arc now has become Buu arc 2.0. The only reason there was tension, the only reason Goku and Vegeta were defeated the last time...it was because of a series of concidences that didn't allowed Goku to go full power. It also kills the point of Vegeta beating Black, since Goku could have done that without training or using the SSG/SSB combo.

The ritual Trunks mentioned...who did it? Isn't it pretty similar to the one Gohan had? Ultimate Trunks would be dope, but he should have been used in this chapter instead of this full SSB thing. Maybe if Merged defuses... Speaking of that, you guys should remember he's inmortal. He is not going to defuse earlier like Vegetto because of using too much energy. He's tied to the one hour limit only.