Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

Which also comes with its own fair share of problems, mainly the "why" of it all, and how it creates situations that are completely nonsensical anyways in terms of selective powerscaling, were the idea to exist in-universe.

Luckily, most people don't seem to be watching and enjoying Super for its powerscaling.

Can you explain with some examples?

For example, when Goku is fighting Hit, the theory posits that Saiyan Beyond God is the ONLY way that Goku did so well against Hit before going SSB, that it wasn't his skill alone in figuring out how to counter the Time-Skip that allowed him to take on Hit so as to not waste energy transforming.

As well, Goku couldn't have possibly fought against opponents like Bergamo on his own. Saiyan Beyond God would be used to try and justify why he could fight against the strongest of three brothers that are within Majin Buu's range of power, rather than his strength just being stronger overall.

It's not the idea itself I hate, it's the fact that it's being used to arbitrarily select power levels in instances rather than make sense of it in an overall sense. If there was precedence set for the idea in-universe, I might take it more seriously. But as far as the narrative is concerned, there isn't any precedent for it.

I'm not understanding AT ALL what you are trying to say. Base Goku, without the power of SSG and only slightly stronger than base Goku from the Buu arc, was able to fight Hit on skill alone in the manga. It would be the same in the anime if the two base theory existed. I don't understand this example.

I also do not understand whats wrong with Bergamo either? Why couldn't he fight as SSJ3 and then step up to SbG if needed? I don't really understand the issue.

[Triggered Vegeta]

So how strong is super Saiyan blue now compared to SSG?

Do we any concrete knowledge? Because it seems it's as strong as it needs to be while simultaneously remaining weaker than berrus

SSB(Current) should be 20 ->30× SSG if you have SSG slightly weaker than Goku SSB(RoF)
Goku multiplies his power 10× in U6... then another huge power increase during the Future Trunks arc.
Ofcource SSB is way higher if you have Base Forms at SSG level.

Goku(Blue) could take on Hit, who was stated to be way stronger than he was in U6... that Hit could survive attacks from Goku Kaioken x10.

[Marlowe89]

So how strong is super Saiyan blue now compared to SSG?

It depends on what you mean.

Between the actual forms and their power increases, there shouldn't be a dramatic difference at all - according to both the movies and the manga, Super Saiyan Blue is notably (but not enormously) stronger than Super Saiyan God. The anime doesn't leave us with a lot of ways to compare the two but I see no reason to believe it's any different in that regard.

Now if you mean BoG's SSG and SSB now, the difference should be bigger. As far as how much of a difference that would be, that's up for debate and depends almost entirely on whether you believe Goku actually became over ten times stronger than he was in the U6 Tournament.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Now if you mean BoG's SSG and SSB now, the difference should be bigger. As far as how much of a difference that would be, that's up for debate and depends almost entirely on whether you believe Goku actually became over ten times stronger than he was in the U6 Tournament.

Personally, I don't think so. Oh sure, Goku did get stronger since then. But it's mostly been through a rage boost and plain old training, and the training part didn't appear to put him on some major pedestal.

The second fight with Hit, to me anyways, seemed to imply that since Goku knew exactly Hit's Time-Skip worked and progressed, he would never fall for it again. Which Hit agrees with. It just flat-out won't work anymore after their last fight, which is compounded by the fact that Goku has figured out how to boot Hit out of his personal time dimension with his power.

[Bullza]

While I agree it doesn't exist in any form, They really messed up between Rof to Champa to Copy water arc. In RoF they are super strong and then the Champa arc seems when Toriyama wanted to go back to normal base levels, then they ran the Copy Water Arc which elevated them again, and then the Future Trunks arc brought them back down again. Of course we then have the other power level shenanigans where God forms seemed to have gotten nerfed considerably from Future Trunks arc onward... or at least that level of power is fairly easily accessible to anyone. The idea of them having the ability to switch back and forth is the only way, in universe, to partially rectify the scaling and story. It's true it doesn't actually exist at all in the anime but its literally all we've got.

I'd think as far as the anime was concerned Base Goku and Vegeta were Super strong in the Universe 6 saga just the same as the arc before and after it even though they shouldn't have been because it didn't really fit too well with the story they were trying to tell.

The manga just had Piccolo and Frost fight. Piccolo was supposed to be weaker but they were still able to get on with it.

In the anime they had the whole thing with Frost losing a huge amount of power first whilst at the same time had Piccolo charge up an attack that went far beyond his limits.

They must have known they'd got it wrong when they saw that Trunks could give Goku a run for his money.

[TheMikado]

While I agree it doesn't exist in any form, They really messed up between Rof to Champa to Copy water arc. In RoF they are super strong and then the Champa arc seems when Toriyama wanted to go back to normal base levels, then they ran the Copy Water Arc which elevated them again, and then the Future Trunks arc brought them back down again. Of course we then have the other power level shenanigans where God forms seemed to have gotten nerfed considerably from Future Trunks arc onward... or at least that level of power is fairly easily accessible to anyone. The idea of them having the ability to switch back and forth is the only way, in universe, to partially rectify the scaling and story. It's true it doesn't actually exist at all in the anime but its literally all we've got.

I'd think as far as the anime was concerned Base Goku and Vegeta were Super strong in the Universe 6 saga just the same as the arc before and after it even though they shouldn't have been because it didn't really fit too well with the story they were trying to tell.

The manga just had Piccolo and Frost fight. Piccolo was supposed to be weaker but they were still able to get on with it.

In the anime they had the whole thing with Frost losing a huge amount of power first whilst at the same time had Piccolo charge up an attack that went far beyond his limits.

They must have known they'd got it wrong when they saw that Trunks could give Goku a run for his money.

But we have the same core fighters coming up in the new arc. They have to either continue with the broken scale for them or fix it quietly which is what I think will happen. So basically they will act as if they are the same power level as in tournament even though their feats will be less, relative to who they are fighting.

[Hugo Boss]

This episode to me fixed all the issues with Super's scaling. Now about Goku and Vegeta, I think they just like to even things out, so they hold back allot.

I think the upcoming episode with Gohan vs Goku will shed more light on this.

Where did you hear that from? I scrolled the official anouncement thread and the website main page and found nothing.

It's there on the page before last.
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30157&start=39340#p1303319

Thank you! It's quite difficult to find something in that thread worth reading. I have to skip several walls of text.

By the way, I don't know how to feel about Gohan surpassing Goku again (or whatever they are trying to tease). The fanboy in me is amazed, but come on.. he is doing that in less than a day.

[Marlowe89]

That preview does make it seem as if Gohan is going to reach unprecedented levels of strength, and to be fair, he is a character who has historically possessed the highest known potential throughout the series. Piccolo himself also suggested that Gohan would far exceed his original strength after their training is finished. I think if anyone is capable of demonstrating the same godlike power levels we usually only see from Goku and Vegeta, it's him.

We'll see though.

[BWri]

It just occurred to me that the original Battle of Gods Super Saiyan Gohan from the promotional materials was the right Gohan. We fans had it wrong this entire time and Toriyama actually had it right. Maybe he was planning this Gohan comeback arc this entire time. Should've kept his hair blond.

[Bullza]

I'm not sure if that was even supposed to be Ultimate Gohan in the Battle of Gods saga now. Probably wasn't at all. Some had Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta well above Ultimate Gohan because of this and that was probably wrong.

[BWri]

I'm not sure if that was even supposed to be Ultimate Gohan in the Battle of Gods saga now. Probably wasn't at all. Some had Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta well above Ultimate Gohan because of this and that was probably wrong.

That's exactly what I'm thinking now. Wasn't it the fans who complained about the SSJ on the posters and original trailer that got Toei to change Gohan to Ultimate? BoG and RoF make a lot more since if Gohan isn't Ultimate.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I'm going to try and explain this.

We learned from this episode that Gohan is using Ultimate and Super Saiyan 2 again. He had not used these forms in DBS until Ep. 88 (BoG black-haired Gohan was his Base form). That means that during his fight in Super Saiyan against SS Goku, Gohan was near his Buu Saga Super Saiyan 1 powers.

If Super Saiyan 1 Gohan is approximately Super Saiyan 1 Goku, then their Bases should be the same. However, a Base Goku pushed a Beerus attack away during the end of Battle of Gods, as well as battled moderately okay against Monaka-Beerus.

Gohan absolutely was never above his Ultimate state when he fought Goku. This means Base Goku against Base Gohan MUST BE WEAK. Yet, how is it possible that Base Goku fights well against Beerus? THIS MUST RESULT IN A STRONG AND WEAK-LOOKING BASE.

So, here is my theory.

Also, if anyone says that some parts of DBS anime are not canon, please leave. We have been over this time and time and time again. I will be trying to find internal consistency.

Gohan has his Base form and his Ultimate transformation. This episode confirms that they are different things (his SS2 hair flickered into Ultimate, for god's sake). The confusion stems from the fact that they look too similar because of the black hair.

Gohan has two black-haired forms: Base and Ultimate. Goku should have two black-haired forms: Base and Super Saiyan God.

If Gohan's Base was not in Ultimate and he cannot stack Super Saiyan on top of Ultimate as people had thought ... then SS1 Gohan = SS1 Goku, as shown during the field fight where Chi-Chi yells at them. If their SS1 forms are equal and their Base forms are equal, then Goku's Base form and SS1 form cannot be as strong as it was during Battle of Gods ... unless ...

My belief is that when Goku went SSGod and had red hair he lost it, but it got absorbed into his Super Saiyan form for a bit and then transitioned into his Base form. The SSGod power was merging with Goku's being. During DBS Ep. 14 his Super Saiyan form was very powerful, but as I spoke about ... SS1 should have only been that powerful in that moment. My idea is that for a VERY BRIEF BIT the SSGod power was imbedded in Goku's Super Saiyan form. When he is fighting the sun ball attack from Beerus he turns into Base form and is able to stop it. This should be when the SSGod power was merging with his Base form. It hadn't merged with his Base form yet because he went into SS1 during the ritual.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Our biggest issue has been whether Goku's power is incredibly strong now. With the recent episodes, we all seem to be in agreement that Goku's forms are all weaker than SSGod except for SSBlue. SS2 Goku and SS3 Goku during the Black arc make sense to be relatively around their Buu arc powers (how could Trunks get so strong to be above SSGod?). That leaves BoG Ep. 14 Super Saiyan and the weird instances of Goku's Base form being strong.

I think it makes sense to just say that the powerful SS1 at SSGod level was just the SSGod power being semi-merged with Goku. It only was fully merged after the sun ball attack. So Goku's Base would be relatively at Buu arc levels, and he now has Super Saiyan God but it looks and feels like a Base form. During DBS Ep. 14, Goku basically had Super Saiyan God, but it just looked and felt ki-wise like SS1. This idea works perfectly because he goes from SSGod to SS1 to Base and doesn't switch around among those. As seen in the graphic above and in the show, it is consistent. It makes sense to believe it was merging with him.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

So Goku used Base against Botamo and Frost. He used a black-haired SSG against Hit and Monaka-Beerus. This makes things consistent, as they are both above SSG tier. Goku also could be said to use black-haired SSG against RoF Frieza. He didn't feel like he was jumping from relative Buu arc Base to SSB, as Frieza compares black-haired Goku to stronger than Majin Buu. The intent behind the RoF arc was that Goku's Base was around SSG anyways. Black-haired SSG explains how a seemingly Base Goku fought evenly with Base Copy-Vegeta who crushed SS3 Gotenks, yet Base Goku is around Base Gohan who was not Ultimate. This could explain why a strengthened Slim Buu didn't instantly kill a relative Buu arc Base Goku. He could have used black-haired SSG. This also keeps consistency with the DBS manga where Goku and Vegeta have SSGod. In the manga they have Base, SS1, SS2/SS3, SSG, SSB. In the anime they have Base, SS1, SS2/SS3, black-haired SSG, SSB.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know that's just Two-Base Theory, and folks like myself STILL see no value in it at this point? You haven't brought up anything new or groundbreaking.

Besides that, you completely forgot that Gohan's base form was above Piccolo's power in RoF. So even if Goku and Vegeta aren't above Majin Buu normally, which they probably are anyways, then that'd STILL place their base power at Cell Games/Buu Saga SS level.

[ChiefWamsutta]

You know that's just Two-Base Theory, and folks like myself STILL see no value in it at this point? You haven't brought up anything new or groundbreaking.

Besides that, you completely forgot that Gohan's base form was above Piccolo's power in RoF. So even if Goku and Vegeta aren't above Majin Buu normally, which they probably are anyways, then that'd STILL place their base power at Cell Games/Buu Saga SS level.

I'd ask you to try and take a look at the theory. Maybe just give it a chance.

[MagmonKai]

Maybe they're making gohan this powerful so he can take on Toppo while Goku jobs Jiren?

[ZombieVito]

Besides that, you completely forgot that Gohan's base form was above Piccolo's power in RoF.

That was proven wrong.

Please explain how the hell is Gohan's base stronger than Piccolo without Ultimate?

[DBZ Macky]

Swinging a magical sword for half a day could be enough for him to power up greatly. Shin did seem to think that he could put up a better fight than SS2 Goku and SS2 Vegeta against Majin Buu, and maybe even win.

I still don't think he's stronger than Piccolo though. Maybe he's stronger than a weighted Piccolo? Without his weights, Piccolo was shown to be overwhelming base Gohan in their training when Goku came to recruit them for the U6 vs U7 tournament.

[ZombieVito]

Swinging a magical sword for half a day could be enough for him to power up greatly. Shin did seem to think that he could put up a better fight than SS2 Goku and SS2 Vegeta against Majin Buu, and maybe even win.

I still don't think he's stronger than Piccolo though. Maybe he's stronger than a weighted Piccolo? Without his weights, Piccolo was shown to be overwhelming base Gohan in their training when Goku came to recruit them for the U6 vs U7 tournament.

Impossible. Goku didn't think Gohan could beat Boo so he can't be that much stronger.

The weights only give him around 20% of a power boost. Piccolo was heavily suppressing himself in that training.

[BWri]

I still don't think he's stronger than Piccolo though. Maybe he's stronger than a weighted Piccolo? Without his weights, Piccolo was shown to be overwhelming base Gohan in their training when Goku came to recruit them for the U6 vs U7 tournament.

That's just a good ol' fashioned inconsistency. Even with all the scaling questions episode 88 answered for us, the RoF arc still makes no sense compared to the rest of the series. Hell, the movie version wasn't all that better, but at least it was self contained. In we take it at face value Base Gohan > Weighted Piccolo in Super's version of RoF due to how he clowned a Tagoma who clowned Piccolo. In Universe, Piccolo would have to have grown substantially only since then, which I can accept only with an eye-roll because of how he was owning base Gohan in there little pre-U6 skirmish. Otherwise Piccolo's weights held him back THAT much and Gohan's only gotten weaker which makes much less sense because they've been training since then. I guess Piccolo's weights could theoretically weigh him down as much as he wants, but why would he wear something that would limit his power so much in that situation?

[DBZ Macky]

Maybe because they were deliberately trying not to kill the soldiers as they stated themselves? Besides, Piccolo is already capable of "Magic Materialization" so it's completely possible that he can change the weight of his clothes whenever he wants and as much as he wants. Not only because the same weights he wore back in the Saiyan arc won't be efficient but also because Piccolo does have two different readings given for him in the Saiyan arc- 327 before the fight with Raditz and 329 afterwards.

I think Tagoma is a little weaker than Freeza on Namek in terms of battle power. It would make complete sense too since Sorbet mentions Ginyu as the greatest comparison he could think of. Basically:

SS Gohan > Piccolo (Full Power) >> 100% Freeza > Tagoma >> Base Gohan > Piccolo (with really, REALLY weights) >> Ginyu