The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Saiga]

I have Kurilin as higher than Tenshinhan at the 23rd Budokai, because I compared their respective performances. IMO Kurilin's performance against Ma Junior shows that he has improved a lot and I think he'd be capable of defeating Piccolo Daimao at that point.

I'd say it's indicated a bunch of times that Tenshinhan is on a whole other level compared to Krillin, for example Roshi's quote about Goku, Tenshinhan, Shen and Ma Junior being the top masters in the World before the Semi-finals begin is just one of them.
And then 5 years later the early Z battle powers show, where they lie in comparison to each other.

Agreed with Turlast about Yamcha vs. Chaozu.

I don't think Roshi's quote meant anything like Tenshinhan being superior to Kurilin, he just made it to the semi-finals while Kurilin didn't.

And the 5 years later battle powers don't necessarily mean Tenshinhan was stronger than Kurilin at the tournament - Kurilin could have stopped training after that point, which is what I believe.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

I don't see why Krillin would've been stronger than Tien at the 23rd Budokai when the latter already had a good lead on him in the first place. Both of them did Korin's training and did their own training afterwards. Even Krillin considers Tien possibly "a little too strong" after his battle with Tao, so I'd say Krillin is still the weaker of the two.

[Saiga]

But as you can see by comparing the battle powers of them at the start of the Saiyan saga and after the training, Kurilin has improved more under the exact same training. It stands to reason that he improves faster than Tenshinhan does. And saying Tenshinhan is possibly "a little too strong" means that Kurilin could think that Tenshinhan may be too strong for him, or strong enough to give him trouble. A quote like that could be taken so many ways.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Even if you give Krillin a bigger increase in comparison to Tien after Karin's training, the fact that Tien was already way stronger beforehand should keep him in the lead there. Not to mention the fact that they did their own training afterwards. Tien's training regimen usually appeared to be better than Krillin's, so at the most, I see him surpassing Tien from 3 yrs before.

Also, Krillin likely being weaker than Cyborg Tao makes it impossible for him to be above Tien. I almost forgot about that.

[Saiga]

Even if you give Krillin a bigger increase in comparison to Tenshinhan after Karin's training, the fact that Tenshinhan was already way stronger beforehand should keep him in the lead there. Not to mention the fact that they did their own training afterwards. Tenshinhan's training regimen usually appeared to be better than Krillin's, so at the most, I see him surpassing Tenshinhan from 3 yrs before.

Also, Krillin likely being weaker than Cyborg Tao makes it impossible for him to be above Tenshinhan. I almost forgot about that.

We don't know how much stronger than Kurilin Tenshinhan was before hand, though. And why would he likely be weaker than Cyborg Tao?

[FNF]

Tenshinhan is always suggested to have the same lead over Krillin until the Trunks arc possibly. Krillin even makes remarks like "250?! I know!! It’s Tenshinhan!!!" and "That's Tenshinhan for you!" which are pretty subtle ways of saying so.
The only thing that suggests otherwise is the guidebook numbers.

[In Brightest Day]

Even if you give Krillin a bigger increase in comparison to Tenshinhan after Karin's training, the fact that Tenshinhan was already way stronger beforehand should keep him in the lead there. Not to mention the fact that they did their own training afterwards. Tenshinhan's training regimen usually appeared to be better than Krillin's, so at the most, I see him surpassing Tenshinhan from 3 yrs before.

Also, Krillin likely being weaker than Cyborg Tao makes it impossible for him to be above Tenshinhan. I almost forgot about that.

We don't know how much stronger than Kurilin Tenshinhan was before hand, though. And why would he likely be weaker than Cyborg Tao?

Yes, we do. Tenshinhan fought (for the most part) evenly with Goku at the 22nd Budokai, while Kuririn didn't.

Prior to Kuririn heading off to Namek & Tenshinhan to Kaio's, Tenshinhan being the stronger of the two up until that point is pretty clear.

[Fox666]

Tenshinhan is always suggested to have the same lead over Krillin until the Trunks arc possibly. Krillin even makes remarks like "250?! I know!! It’s Tenshinhan!!!" and "That's Tenshinhan for you!" which are pretty subtle ways of saying so.
The only thing that suggests otherwise is the guidebook numbers.

Which numbers in the guidebooks suggests otherwise?

[Saiga]

I'm not saying we don't know that Tenshinhan is stronger than Kurilin, I'm saying we don't know how much stronger, like we do in the Saiyan saga with the power levels given. And, I think the most important thing other than canon battle powers, is canon performance. Kurilin did well against Piccolo Jr, Tenshinhan didn't do well against Goku.

[In Brightest Day]

Tenshinhan was actually able to give Goku a decent fight until Goku took his weighted gear off. Piccolo, on the other hand, never took his weights off and actually made Kuririn quit. IMO, Tenshinhan was the more impressive of the two, despite Kuririn having a pretty fantastic showing.

[CatouttaHell]

I have Kurilin as higher than Tenshinhan at the 23rd Budokai, because I compared their respective performances. IMO Kurilin's performance against Ma Junior shows that he has improved a lot and I think he'd be capable of defeating Piccolo Daimao at that point.

Muten Roshi said Son Goku, God, Ma Junior, and Tenshinhan were the best in the world so you're factually wrong.

Kuririn wanted to gang up on Cyborg Tao Pai Pai and said that Tenshinhan was too strong after he saw him one-shot him.

I agree with you that Kuririn would beat down Piccolo Daimao, but whether he can or not doesn't change all of the implications pointing to Tenshinhan >>> Cyborg Tao Pai Pai >>/>>> Kuririn.

[In Brightest Day]

I have Kurilin as higher than Tenshinhan at the 23rd Budokai, because I compared their respective performances. IMO Kurilin's performance against Ma Junior shows that he has improved a lot and I think he'd be capable of defeating Piccolo Daimao at that point.

Muten Roshi said Son Goku, God, Ma Junior, and Tenshinhan were the best in the world so you're factually wrong.

Says the guy who "disagrees" with factual numbers from the Manga itself.

[CatouttaHell]

Says the guy who "disagrees" with factual numbers from the Manga itself.

Only because they blatantly contradict everything that came before them.

[Kaboom]

This "you're factually wrong" bullcrap over something like power levels doesn't fly here. Be careful.

[Fox666]

Muten Roshi said Son Goku, God, Ma Junior, and Tenshinhan were the best in the world

Because they are the finalist of the Budokai...

[Saiga]

Muten Roshi said Son Goku, God, Ma Junior, and Tenshinhan were the best in the world

Because they are the finalist of the Budokai...

That's what I think his quote meant as well.

Catouttahell, how do they contradict anything that came before then?

[dbgtFO]

And, I think the most important thing other than canon battle powers, is canon performance. Kurilin did well against Piccolo Jr, Tenshinhan didn't do well against Goku.

Not only did they not fight the same opponent, but in both fights the opposition wasn't even giving it their all. Based on their performance against their respective opponents all we got is Krillin being no match for a not even remotely serious Piccolo and Tenshinhan being no match for a not even remotely serious Goku.

But if I was to compare, I can't see how Krillin did better than Tenshinhan. Krillin managed to land one hit after distracting Piccolo and was outclassed in terms of everything after that. Tenshinhan managed to keep up with Goku's speed and even surpass it, before Goku took of his weights, landing two hits as opposed to Krillin just landing one.

Also Cyborg Tao Pai Pai maxes out at a BP of 210, Early Saiyan Arc Krillin was 206 and Tenshinhan was a lot stronger than Tao Pai Pai. There's simply nothing suggesting Krillin was stronger than Tenshinhan during that time, other than your interpretation of their respective fights, which aren't proper indicators due to aforementioned reasons.

[perucho1990]

Namek Saga Krillin and Gohan(before getting their hidden powers released by Guru) vs Nappa.

It was stated that Krillin/Gohan were training during the 1 month trip to Namek.

[dbgtFO]

Namek Saga Krillin and Gohan(before getting their hidden powers released by Guru) vs Nappa.

If Krillin is smarter than I give him credit for, he'd tell Gohan to distract Nappa, while he prepares a Kienzan, since neither of them should be able to compete head-on with Nappa yet.

In such a scenario, I see Krillin and Gohan winning 6/10 times.

[Saiga]

And, I think the most important thing other than canon battle powers, is canon performance. Kurilin did well against Piccolo Jr, Tenshinhan didn't do well against Goku.

Not only did they not fight the same opponent, but in both fights the opposition wasn't even giving it their all. Based on their performance against their respective opponents all we got is Krillin being no match for a not even remotely serious Piccolo and Tenshinhan being no match for a not even remotely serious Goku.

But if I was to compare, I can't see how Krillin did better than Tenshinhan. Krillin managed to land one hit after distracting Piccolo and was outclassed in terms of everything after that. Tenshinhan managed to keep up with Goku's speed and even surpass it, before Goku took of his weights, landing two hits as opposed to Krillin just landing one.

Also Cyborg Tao Pai Pai maxes out at a BP of 210, Early Saiyan Arc Krillin was 206 and Tenshinhan was a lot stronger than Tao Pai Pai. There's simply nothing suggesting Krillin was stronger than Tenshinhan during that time, other than your interpretation of their respective fights, which aren't proper indicators due to aforementioned reasons.

Piccolo does mention having to use his full power (which I assumed meant full power possible while restricted by his weights).

I can totally understand where people are coming from who don't believe Kurilin would be better than Tenshinhan at that stage, don't get me wrong, that is the easiest conclusion to draw from that. It's just always the impression I had when I read the fights and isn't a completely unreasonable idea, I don't think.