Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bulma's Foot Masseur » Wed May 03, 2017 3:51 am

Bullza wrote:I'm not sure if that was even supposed to be Ultimate Gohan in the Battle of Gods saga now. Probably wasn't at all. Some had Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta well above Ultimate Gohan because of this and that was probably wrong.
Well, if anything the last episode showed us that Ultimate isn't exactly a static form. We've been told before that it brings out all of Gohan's inner potential, but how can that be true when Piccolo is certain that's not all of it?

I'd prefer knowing he hasn't gone Ultimate up until now, but if he has and it requires an explanation, then it was just an Ultimate so rusty and untrained that it was barely worth using.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed May 03, 2017 3:55 am

DBZ Macky wrote:Maybe because they were deliberately trying not to kill the soldiers as they stated themselves? Besides, Piccolo is already capable of "Magic Materialization" so it's completely possible that he can change the weight of his clothes whenever he wants and as much as he wants. Not only because the same weights he wore back in the Saiyan arc won't be efficient but also because Piccolo does have two different readings given for him in the Saiyan arc- 327 before the fight with Raditz and 329 afterwards.

I think Tagoma is a little weaker than Freeza on Namek in terms of battle power. It would make complete sense too since Sorbet mentions Ginyu as the greatest comparison he could think of. Basically:

SS Gohan > Piccolo (Full Power) >> 100% Freeza > Tagoma >> Base Gohan > Piccolo (with really, REALLY weights) >> Ginyu
Again, impossible.

Ginyu was not even damaged after Gohan beat him. He can't be that weak.

People just need to accept that both Freeza and Tagoma were wrong when they said base Gohan > Piccolo.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed May 03, 2017 7:27 am

I prefer the interpretation that Piccolo in the heat of the moment with his weights on was inferior to base Gohan, but not by a large margin, and that if Piccolo's head was in the game and he had taken his weights off, he would've been equal to base Gohan at the time. Tagoma was absolutely no-selling both of them pretty badly, and they were REALLY trying hard to take down this guy, non-lethal or not.

It's mainly to simplify the whole shebang for argumentative purposes, which I do for a lot of things related to powerscaling. For example, I also go with the interpretation that if SS Gohan hadn't gotten Death-Beamed and wasn't in a "no-killing" state of mind, he would've been equal to 1st Form Freeza, and that Freeza's suppression forms don't have gigantic power differences between them anymore, at least not like the Final Form's jump from 2.5 million to 120 million. The latter is based off of Frost, who went Final Form but was still vastly inferior to SS Goku.

It also helps put to rest the idea that Goku and Vegeta haven't made any significant progress in terms of their overall power since the Buu Saga, and makes it easier to swallow that other cast members have caught up.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Wed May 03, 2017 9:20 am

I'd still like to know if people are basing this mainly on Gohan attacking Tagoma, the enemies referring to Gohan as the strongest guy of the team or some other tidbit of information. While it is undeniable that a non 100% Tagoma took a direct hit from Piccolo without flinching and Tagoma-Ginyu apparently bothered - barely giving a thought all the same, nevertheless - to parry Gohan's punches, we still don't know if base Gohan could have actually hurt Tagoma-Ginyu (we just know he didn't when he tried to, as a matter of fact).
Curiously enough, there's also the fact that were two different people involved in this fight so the usual rationale "Tagoma did this before, it seems strange he would do that afterwards" doesn't seem to be that easily appliable. Furthermore, if we wanted to indulge into some additional mental gymnastics, chances are that some characters may have been more exhausted than others. Piccolo had his weights on and appeared pretty tired, and he may have been simply much more tired than Gohan at that point.

At this point, I personally don't feel like the notion regarding base Gohan as more powerful than Piccolo is particularly stronger than the other possibilities, and I think it has been thoroughly weakened in its very foundations by the the latest episode.
What lead people to believe something like that was the theory that Gohan could've been Ultimate combined with their interpretation of Beerus' words on the base Saiyans. Hence, Gohan had to be above Piccolo no ifs and buts. However, we now know with a compelling degree of assuredness that Gohan could not easily turn Ultimate; most likely, then, it was TOEI having the base Saiyan-tier character ducking it out with the Super Saiyan-ish tier foe; in short, your very standard TOEI script, which Super has presented to us many, many times by now.

If you follow this idea and you don't think that Gohan was channeling part of his Ultimate power (which still could be; the dialogue does state that he's trying to go Ultimate) you'd most likely need to hypothesize that Piccolo became more something like 50, 75 or 100 times stronger in a few weeks and - at least from an in-universe point of view - considering, well, everything that was indirectly established from the post-Cell Game to today it sounds somewhat hard to believe. Compared to that, people somehow sensing or referring to Gohan's real power and not his simple base form sounds much easier to believe and reconcile with the current feats, at least for me, also not being - technically - something unprecedented altogether.
Last edited by LowRyder2005 on Wed May 03, 2017 9:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed May 03, 2017 9:46 am

I follow this main train of thought mainly because, well, it's simply the easiest one to follow. It's easier to just say that Gohan was the flat-out strongest when everything else about the intent of such scenes implied it.

It makes powerscaling simpler to explore and debate. Is it more logical based on prior material? Not really. Does that matter as much anymore? I'd argue no, because precedence can only go so far until you have to work off of what's in the NOW, and not back then, especially when the NOW treats the NOW as the most important thing.

I prefer to make things simpler in this way so that everyone else can follow these things more easily. It's when people try to make things more complex and nuanced than they need to be, such as how I "perceive" Two-Base Theory, that I run into problems with others.

===

Basically, I work with the simplest implied material, then reconcile it with later and/or earlier material, then come up with an interpretation.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Vegetes » Wed May 03, 2017 11:21 am

Not Using direct powerlevels, these are numbers to represent what I think it's accurate to:

- means or less, + means or more
Z SSj3 Vegito: 1450
Ssjg Goku: 1600
Base BoG Goku:21.33
Rof SSjb Goku and Vegeta: 250000 -
Golden Frieza:260000 -
Tournament ssjb Goku and Vegeta: 267500 - -
Hit tornament ark: 2140000
Black ark ssjb Goku: 275000 + -
Hit Goku assassination: 2942500
Ssjb Vegito: 55 million - -
Beerus: 1 quadrillion + + +
Whis: 100 quadrillion + + + +
Zen-ho guards: 1.5 quadrillion + + +
Grand priest : 10 quintillion + + + + + + +
Zen-ho( in regular power level numbers): Google

GT:
Ssj4 Goku 270000 + - -
Ssj4 Vegeta 265000 + - -
Omega Shenron: 360000 + + + - -
Ssj4 Gogeta: 25 million + - -

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by MagmonKai » Wed May 03, 2017 12:42 pm

Vegetes wrote:Not Using direct powerlevels, these are numbers to represent what I think it's accurate to:

- means or less, + means or more
Z SSj3 Vegito: 1450
Ssjg Goku: 1600
Base BoG Goku:21.33
Rof SSjb Goku and Vegeta: 250000 -
Golden Frieza:260000 -
Tournament ssjb Goku and Vegeta: 267500 - -
Hit tornament ark: 2140000
Black ark ssjb Goku: 275000 + -
Hit Goku assassination: 2942500
Ssjb Vegito: 55 million - -
Beerus: 1 quadrillion + + +
Whis: 100 quadrillion + + + +
Zen-ho guards: 1.5 quadrillion + + +
Grand priest : 10 quintillion + + + + + + +
Zen-ho( in regular power level numbers): Google

GT:
Ssj4 Goku 270000 + - -
Ssj4 Vegeta 265000 + - -
Omega Shenron: 360000 + + + - -
Ssj4 Gogeta: 25 million + - -

Do you realize what a quadrillion is? There's no way that scale would work. SSB Vegetto is definately closer to Beerus than that!! 55 million is extremely small compared to 1 quadrillion. I don't think Beerus is that strong. Your God tier characters are way too high in relation to the other members on this list. Also, Zenchan doesn't have fighting power so he shouldn't really be on this list. He just have hax god powers not fighting strength. Didn't you learn from Whis, not everything can be measured by battle strength?

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by omaro34 » Wed May 03, 2017 12:45 pm

Piccolo is between SSJ2 and SSJ3 at this point, would be my best guess. Definitely over SSJ2 Gohan
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed May 03, 2017 1:30 pm

omaro34 wrote:Piccolo is between SSJ2 and SSJ3 at this point, would be my best guess. Definitely over SSJ2 Gohan
Which still runs into questions of how strong said SS2/SS3 are in the first place. Because those forms are multipliers, not static levels.

Based on everything I'VE seen so far, said SS2 Gohan could be as strong as SS2/3 Gotenks for all we know.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Wed May 03, 2017 1:38 pm

I don't know why we're over-complicating this. Gohan's entire character arc this series is about how he's weaker now and this training with Piccolo got him to the level he was against Boo. Gohan was never stronger than ultimate Gohan until now.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Wed May 03, 2017 1:55 pm

I doubt Zen has Battle Power, if he did, it would be unmeasureable. If someone would sense his ki, theyd proly explode lol like those scouters.

And its useless placing PL on Beerus and Angels, since their BP is not fixed, they can change depending on plot. Goku cand co can get 1 million times stronger and he still can be below Beerus. Makes 0 sense, but apparently Toriyama really loves that purple cat.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Wed May 03, 2017 1:57 pm

Doctor. wrote:I don't know why we're over-complicating this. Gohan's entire character arc this series is about how he's weaker now and this training with Piccolo got him to the level he was against Boo. Gohan was never stronger than ultimate Gohan until now.
THANK YOU! Gohan SPECIFICALLY asks Piccolo in Ep. 88 how could he be above his SS2 power now.

Piccolo says that he has been training the whole time while Gohan has been slacking off as a scholar. This means ever since DBS started Piccolo has been training. The little subtleties throughout DBS have implied Gohan is crazy weak. He was not even SS2 Buu arc power until now.

Gohan wasn't as powerful as people believe during RoF. He was SS1 Buu arc power at his maximum. Piccolo was above that.

There is no way that Piccolo was weaker than a super weak Gohan with SS1 at his maximum, when Piccolo has SPECIFICALLY been training while Gohan slacked off.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by precita » Wed May 03, 2017 2:15 pm

If Tenshinhan is shown as strong as a SSJ2 what will you guys think? Personally I'd think it's even less believeable than 17's huge boost.

I have a hard time seeing Tenshihan at SSJ1 level, let alone at SSJ2.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed May 03, 2017 2:31 pm

precita wrote:If Tenshinhan is shown as strong as a SSJ2 what will you guys think? Personally I'd think it's even less believeable than 17's huge boost.

I have a hard time seeing Tenshihan at SSJ1 level, let alone at SSJ2.
Again, WHAT SPECIFIC LEVEL of each one do you speak of? People need to specify this, because they aren't all the same.

There's Goku's current SS level, Gohan's current SS level, Goten's current SS level, Goku's Namek Saga SS level, Vegeta's Cell Games SS level, etc.

So WHICH ONE do you speak of?

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed May 03, 2017 2:33 pm

omaro34 wrote:Piccolo is between SSJ2 and SSJ3 at this point, would be my best guess. Definitely over SSJ2 Gohan
Maybe. The way the fight looked, SSJ2 Gohan had the power advantage and got cocky again. That's why he lost.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Wed May 03, 2017 2:53 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
precita wrote:If Tenshinhan is shown as strong as a SSJ2 what will you guys think? Personally I'd think it's even less believeable than 17's huge boost.

I have a hard time seeing Tenshihan at SSJ1 level, let alone at SSJ2.
Again, WHAT SPECIFIC LEVEL of each one do you speak of? People need to specify this, because they aren't all the same.

There's Goku's current SS level, Gohan's current SS level, Goten's current SS level, Goku's Namek Saga SS level, Vegeta's Cell Games SS level, etc.

So WHICH ONE do you speak of?
I don't see why you're making a big deal out of this. All of the Super Saiyans, barring Gotenks, are more-or-less at the same level of strength at this point, which is somewhat above the Boo arc Super Saiyans. By "SS tier" or "SS2 tier" people are obviously talking about the current Saiyans.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed May 03, 2017 3:01 pm

Doctor. wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
precita wrote:If Tenshinhan is shown as strong as a SSJ2 what will you guys think? Personally I'd think it's even less believeable than 17's huge boost.

I have a hard time seeing Tenshihan at SSJ1 level, let alone at SSJ2.
Again, WHAT SPECIFIC LEVEL of each one do you speak of? People need to specify this, because they aren't all the same.

There's Goku's current SS level, Gohan's current SS level, Goten's current SS level, Goku's Namek Saga SS level, Vegeta's Cell Games SS level, etc.

So WHICH ONE do you speak of?
I don't see why you're making a big deal out of this. All of the Super Saiyans, barring Gotenks, are more-or-less at the same level of strength at this point, which is somewhat above the Boo arc Super Saiyans. By "SS tier" or "SS2 tier" people are obviously talking about the current Saiyans.
It's an issue because it's just as easy to say that current base Goku and Vegeta are above any other SS in their families, and this doesn't mesh well with what has been established in Super so far, what with Gohan being above Piccolo in base form in RoF, SS3 Gotenks being below base Goku/Vegeta, etc.

There's more readily available evidence of the normal Super Saiyans like Goten and Trunks being below the base forms of stronger ones like Goku or Gohan, which has to be reconciled with other facts like Gohan's current SS2 still being below Ultimate despite all his training these past few years since he was humiliated by Freeza when he was the strongest Z-Warrior, above even Piccolo.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Wed May 03, 2017 3:05 pm

Doctor. wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
precita wrote:If Tenshinhan is shown as strong as a SSJ2 what will you guys think? Personally I'd think it's even less believeable than 17's huge boost.

I have a hard time seeing Tenshihan at SSJ1 level, let alone at SSJ2.
Again, WHAT SPECIFIC LEVEL of each one do you speak of? People need to specify this, because they aren't all the same.

There's Goku's current SS level, Gohan's current SS level, Goten's current SS level, Goku's Namek Saga SS level, Vegeta's Cell Games SS level, etc.

So WHICH ONE do you speak of?
I don't see why you're making a big deal out of this. All of the Super Saiyans, barring Gotenks, are more-or-less at the same level of strength at this point, which is somewhat above the Boo arc Super Saiyans. By "SS tier" or "SS2 tier" people are obviously talking about the current Saiyans.
I don't understand your level of intensity either. You should take it down a notch.

Current SS1 Goku, Current SS1 Gohan, Current SS1 F. Trunks, Current SS1 Vegeta, and Buu arc Super Saiyan 1s are all around the same level of power. It's just a way to gauge the region of power.

SS1 Goku/Vegeta/Gohan are now around the same level. SS1 Gotenks is still above them. That Copy-Vegeta fight was SSG Goku and Vegeta.

You are over-thinking this whole thing far too much.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Basako » Wed May 03, 2017 3:07 pm

precita wrote:If Tenshinhan is shown as strong as a SSJ2 what will you guys think? Personally I'd think it's even less believeable than 17's huge boost.

I have a hard time seeing Tenshihan at SSJ1 level, let alone at SSJ2.
Ten SS2 is too much, but still more believeable than 17's. But who says he is in SS2? Just because he is gonna fight Piccolo, not even Piccolo is confirmed in that level. He probably is, but we don't know for sure, we just saw him sparring with Gohan, who wasn't in his best yet. 17 in SSB, if he is, that's the worst power up after Freezer's four month training for me. I can't buy it, too much for me, sorry.
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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Wed May 03, 2017 3:09 pm

Gohan and Goku fought in their Super Saiyan forms and they seemed evenly matched, more-or-less. Goku and Vegeta are obviously equals. Goku was evenly matched with Future Trunks. All these 4 Saiyans are around the same level of strength. Considering how the series keeps saying that Gohan has gotten weaker and he took this long to reacquire the power he had in the Boo arc, then you can say the Saiyans are somewhere around the Boo arc strength levels, maybe slightly more powerful. Considering Goten and Trunks were already a match for the Super Saiyans in that arc, they are here also.

This whole "Tagoma > base Gohan > Piccolo" thing has gotten out of hand. Tagoma tanked Piccolo's hits, fine. Then Gohan caught Tagoma off-guard with a Ki blast and it did no damage to him at all. I don't see how this implies base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, people have always taken this out of proportion and now the series is proving to you with this recent episode how this interpretation is wrong and people still can't see how.
ChiefWamsutta wrote:I don't understand your level of intensity either. You should take it down a notch.

Current SS1 Goku, Current SS1 Gohan, Current SS1 F. Trunks, Current SS1 Vegeta, and Buu arc Super Saiyan 1s are all around the same level of power. It's just a way to gauge the region of power.

SS1 Goku/Vegeta/Gohan are now around the same level. SS1 Gotenks is still above them. That Copy-Vegeta fight was SSG Goku and Vegeta.

You are over-thinking this whole thing far too much.
Why are you saying this to me? I agree with you.

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