"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[MisteryOne]

BTW, I wonder if Toriyama's outline has something as nonsensical as Goku Blue being on par with Merged Zamasu. Considering he also wrote something as nonsensical as Goku Black's base being around SS2/3 tier in base yet having a Rosé form yet being defeated later by Vegeta, I would not be surprised. But in that case , if I'm right about this whole mess being the reason to why Goku never faced Black in the manga version...Its pretty sad that Toriyama's little care about his outline damages both the manga and the anime.

SSJB Goku holding his own against Merged Zamasu was definitely in Toriyama's plot outline because it happens in both the anime and manga. And like I said before, there is no fucking way in hell you can make sense of that kind of plot-point without killing the power scaling and/or retroactively making the previous events of the arc meaningless, contrived and stupid.

I actually thing it would be possible if you either make Merged weaker because of some reason (like, I dunno, Vegetto). I suppose it depends of how much you can/want to deviate from the original purpose that Toriyama had when writing that part (if he even had one...). Anyway, its interesting to see how Toriyama himself is the one who fucked up the big problems of this arc.

[Kanassa]

He knew Goku could handle Black, so he could have been the one to master the Mafuba and fight Zamasu. But his pride made him to not «want to rely on such a tecnique». As always, his pride makes things worse for everybody. As I said, Boo arc 2.0. This could have ended earlier if it wasn't because of the Prince's pride

(Possiable) Ultimate form, ritual used by Kaioshin, Fusions, Goku pulling through after magically restoring his energy, a Prince's pride and Goku not using his improved transformation? We just need a a shrivelled up prune sorcerer-esc character with an annoying voic- Wait, Gowasu's still alive, right?

[Basako]

Whats the problem with Trunks having a limited healing power? He can only use it once.

1)Because only Dende and some of the gods have shown to have this power.
2)It came out of nowhere with no foreshadowing.
3)He could have used his healing powers before.

The one isn't a problem, being a disciple of a supreme god could explain it.

The two and three, yes. I'm thinking maybe he didn't know this until now, maybe Shin tells him he can use it. That's the only acceptable outcome I can see for this.

[Lord Beerus]

I pray that Goku didn't have the ability to master Super Saiyan Blue before fighting in the Future Trunks arc. Because if did, he's a piece of shit. Because he knew could have ended this arc the second he and Vegeta went to fight Goku Black and Zamasu for the first time, but chose not to. And it makes everything that happened in Chapter 23 all the more infuriatingly stupid and selfish.

Its not really Goku's fault. Even if he defeated Black in the first trip (Vegeta didn't want to fight alonside him against Black trough) they would still have problems with Zamasu's inmortality and abilities. And in the second trip, the Mafuba prevented him from going all out. However, looking at chapter 22, Vegeta is the piece of shit.

He knew Goku could handle Black, so he could have been the one to master the Mafuba and fight Zamasu. But his pride made him to not «want to rely on such a tecnique». As always, his pride makes things worse for everybody. As I said, Boo arc 2.0. This could have ended earlier if it wasn't because of the Prince's pride

I completely forgot about Vegeta. He always seemed to know that Goku could master Super Saiyan Blue. But this also makes Vegeta look like a total idiot because he never learned to master the form either and knew about the diminishing effects of Super Saiyan Blue and still went out his way to make thing more difficult for himself in the Champa arc. And it also serves to make Vegeta's trip in the ROSAT pointless and makes his moment of defeating SSJR Goku Black utterly meaningless. I can't believe how much a simple plot point like Goku mastering SSJB could create such a ripple effect and retroactively ruin a good chunk of the story.

Oh, and in regards to Zamasu, Goku could have just called Zeno using the Zeno Button to erase him.

[BlueBasilisk]

I pray that Goku didn't have the ability to master Super Saiyan Blue before fighting in the Future Trunks arc. Because if he did, he's a piece of shit. Because he knew could have ended this arc the second he and Vegeta went to fight Goku Black and Zamasu for the first time, but chose not to. And it makes everything that happened in Chapter 23 all the more infuriatingly stupid and selfish.

If he did, doesn't that mean Vegito should have known how to master SSB as well?

[MisteryOne]

SSJB Goku holding his own against Goku was definitely in the outline because it happens in both the anime and manga. And like I said before, there is no fucking way in hell you can make sense of that kind of plot-point without killing the power scaling and/or retroactively making the previous events of the arc meaningless, contrived and stupid.

I would say it makes sense in the anime, he never really overwhelms Zamasu, he just gets two damn good shots in. Peircing Zamasu's ball of death to give Zamasu a surprise kahmehameha ot the face, then delivering a Kaio-kick to the same face after Zamasu had already taken a Father-SOn Galick Gun... TO the face. Then he goes on to get a sword to the face, and considering his universal form is a sky painted with his face... Zamasu gets hit in the face a lot.

The Kame Hame Ha was not a surprise and it should not being able to pierce trough Merged's attack at all. Its even worse in the anime when seconds before Ikari Trunks and SSB Vegeta, which were supposed to be stronger than Goku (both of them in fact) until that moment fired a Father-son Garlick Cannon that couls not do shit to Merged.

[Lord Beerus]

Whats the problem with Trunks having a limited healing power? He can only use it once.

1)Because only Dende and some of the gods have shown to have this power.
2)It came out of nowhere with no foreshadowing.
3)He could have used his healing powers before.

The one isn't a problem, being a disciple of a supreme god could explain it.

The two and three, yes. I'm thinking maybe he didn't know this until now, maybe Shin tells him he can use it. That's the only acceptable outcome I can see for this.

Why didn't Future Kaioshin tell Future Kaioshin he could heal a person? Unless Future Trunks was told he could do this and literally forgot he could do it. Which would make Future Trunks looks really stupid. Either way, this sudden ability was horribly built up and foreshadowed. There was no indication at all that Future Trunks could heal people. This is even worse than Future Trunks learning the Mafuba in a few minutes. And it makes you wonder why Gohan wasn't taught this ability.

[MisteryOne]

I pray that Goku didn't have the ability to master Super Saiyan Blue before fighting in the Future Trunks arc. Because if did, he's a piece of shit. Because he knew could have ended this arc the second he and Vegeta went to fight Goku Black and Zamasu for the first time, but chose not to. And it makes everything that happened in Chapter 23 all the more infuriatingly stupid and selfish.

Its not really Goku's fault. Even if he defeated Black in the first trip (Vegeta didn't want to fight alonside him against Black trough) they would still have problems with Zamasu's inmortality and abilities. And in the second trip, the Mafuba prevented him from going all out. However, looking at chapter 22, Vegeta is the piece of shit.

He knew Goku could handle Black, so he could have been the one to master the Mafuba and fight Zamasu. But his pride made him to not «want to rely on such a tecnique». As always, his pride makes things worse for everybody. As I said, Boo arc 2.0. This could have ended earlier if it wasn't because of the Prince's pride

I completely forgot about Vegeta. He always seemed to know that Goku could master Super Saiyan Blue. But this also makes Vegeta look like a total idiot because he never learned to master the form either and knew about the diminishing effects of Super Saiyan Blue and still went out his way to make thing more difficult for himself in the Champa arc. And it also serves to make Vegeta's trip in the ROSAT pointless and makes his moment of defeating SSJR Goku Black utterly meaningless. I can't believe how much a simple plot point like Goku mastering SSJB could create such a ripple effect and retroactively ruin a good chunk of the story.

Oh, and in regards to Zamasu, Goku could have just called Zeno using the Zeno Button to erase him.

There is nothing suggesting that neither Goku or Vegeta knew about the mastery of SSB in the Champa arc, in fact it's shown otherwise since Goku was reserving his Blue power. He apparently mastered it at some point between Champa and FT arcs. The question is how? Can't Vegeta do it as well? My headcanon is that its related to Goku going trough the ritual amd later archiving SSB, unlike Vegeta whi had a way more forced way to obtain both SSB and SSG forms. But its not explained at all...

Goku doesn't seem to remember about the button on neither the anime or the manga trough. In fact, I wonder how the button resisted so many battles

[MisteryOne]

I don't see why the heal things it's still an issue. Trunks can only use it once, Vegeta himself said it. Thats why he only healed Goku. I agree about it not having any type of foreshadowing trough.

[Basako]

1)Because only Dende and some of the gods have shown to have this power.
2)It came out of nowhere with no foreshadowing.
3)He could have used his healing powers before.

The one isn't a problem, being a disciple of a supreme god could explain it.

The two and three, yes. I'm thinking maybe he didn't know this until now, maybe Shin tells him he can use it. That's the only acceptable outcome I can see for this.

Why didn't Future Kaioshin tell Future Kaioshin he could heal a person? Unless Future Trunks was told he could do this and literally forgot he could do it. Which would make Future Trunks looks really stupid. Either way, this sudden ability was horribly built up and foreshadowed. There was no indication at all that Future Trunks could heal people. This is even worse than Future Trunks learning the Mafuba in a few minutes. And it makes you wonder why Gohan wasn't taught this ability.

Maybe he just did the rituals to make him his disciple but didn't explain all the implications that had. They focused in other things like training with the Z sword, who knows. I'm just saying that maybe Trunks didn't know until now, which is pure speculation, we haven’t got full traductions.

[Lord Beerus]

Its not really Goku's fault. Even if he defeated Black in the first trip (Vegeta didn't want to fight alonside him against Black trough) they would still have problems with Zamasu's inmortality and abilities. And in the second trip, the Mafuba prevented him from going all out. However, looking at chapter 22, Vegeta is the piece of shit.

He knew Goku could handle Black, so he could have been the one to master the Mafuba and fight Zamasu. But his pride made him to not «want to rely on such a tecnique». As always, his pride makes things worse for everybody. As I said, Boo arc 2.0. This could have ended earlier if it wasn't because of the Prince's pride

I completely forgot about Vegeta. He always seemed to know that Goku could master Super Saiyan Blue. But this also makes Vegeta look like a total idiot because he never learned to master the form either and knew about the diminishing effects of Super Saiyan Blue and still went out his way to make thing more difficult for himself in the Champa arc. And it also serves to make Vegeta's trip in the ROSAT pointless and makes his moment of defeating SSJR Goku Black utterly meaningless. I can't believe how much a simple plot point like Goku mastering SSJB could create such a ripple effect and retroactively ruin a good chunk of the story.

Oh, and in regards to Zamasu, Goku could have just called Zeno using the Zeno Button to erase him.

There is nothing suggesting that neither Goku or Vegeta knew about the mastery of SSB in the Champa arc, in fact it's shown otherwise since Goku was reserving his Blue power. He apparently mastered it at some point between Champa and FT arcs. The question is how? Can't Vegeta do it as well? My headcanon is that its related to Goku going trough the ritual amd later archiving SSB, unlike Vegeta whi had a way more forced way to obtain both SSB and SSG forms. But its not explained at all...

Goku doesn't seem to remember about the button on neither the anime or the manga trough. In fact, I wonder how the button resisted so many battles

If there was any logical point for Goku to master SSJB, it should have been after spending three years the ROSAT. I mean, if Goku didn't master it then, when did he do it? And how did he do do it? Because Vegeta obviously seems to know that Goku can master SSJB and he can't... despite the fact Vegeta trained again in the ROSAT during the Future Trunks arc.

[perucho1990]

The Kame Hame Ha was not a surprise and it should not being able to pierce trough Merged's attack at all. Its even worse in the anime when seconds before Ikari Trunks and SSB Vegeta, which were supposed to be stronger than Goku (both of them in fact) until that moment fired a Father-son Garlick Cannon that couls not do shit to Merged.

Goku had to break both of his arms to win the beam clash, Vegeta or Trunks couldve done that if they wanted to sacrifice their limbs Goku did.

[Basako]

I completely forgot about Vegeta. He always seemed to know that Goku could master Super Saiyan Blue. But this also makes Vegeta look like a total idiot because he never learned to master the form either and knew about the diminishing effects of Super Saiyan Blue and still went out his way to make thing more difficult for himself in the Champa arc. And it also serves to make Vegeta's trip in the ROSAT pointless and makes his moment of defeating SSJR Goku Black utterly meaningless. I can't believe how much a simple plot point like Goku mastering SSJB could create such a ripple effect and retroactively ruin a good chunk of the story.

Oh, and in regards to Zamasu, Goku could have just called Zeno using the Zeno Button to erase him.

There is nothing suggesting that neither Goku or Vegeta knew about the mastery of SSB in the Champa arc, in fact it's shown otherwise since Goku was reserving his Blue power. He apparently mastered it at some point between Champa and FT arcs. The question is how? Can't Vegeta do it as well? My headcanon is that its related to Goku going trough the ritual amd later archiving SSB, unlike Vegeta whi had a way more forced way to obtain both SSB and SSG forms. But its not explained at all...

Goku doesn't seem to remember about the button on neither the anime or the manga trough. In fact, I wonder how the button resisted so many battles

If there was any logical point for Goku to master SSJB, it should have been after spending three years the ROSAT. I mean, if Goku didn't master it then, when did he do it? And how did he do do it? Because Vegeta obviously seems to know that Goku can master SSJB and he can't... despite the fact Vegeta trained again in the ROSAT during the Future Trunks arc.

Yeah, the Zeno button haven't come to his mind, it didn't in the anime until the end either.

Maybe he did master the SSB in the three year training in the ROSAT. But how strong is it? It's not stronger than MZ, look at him in the last panel. Maybe not even than Black SSRose, which would explain the retreat, plus he wanted to learn the Mafuba for Zamasu.

[Kanassa]

SSJB Goku holding his own against Goku was definitely in the outline because it happens in both the anime and manga. And like I said before, there is no fucking way in hell you can make sense of that kind of plot-point without killing the power scaling and/or retroactively making the previous events of the arc meaningless, contrived and stupid.

I would say it makes sense in the anime, he never really overwhelms Zamasu, he just gets two damn good shots in. Peircing Zamasu's ball of death to give Zamasu a surprise kahmehameha ot the face, then delivering a Kaio-kick to the same face after Zamasu had already taken a Father-SOn Galick Gun... TO the face. Then he goes on to get a sword to the face, and considering his universal form is a sky painted with his face... Zamasu gets hit in the face a lot.

The Kame Hame Ha was not a surprise and it should not being able to pierce trough Merged's attack at all.

It was a complete surprise, Zamasu had a second of 'WTF' before he was engulfed in it. And why shouldn't it be able to pierce Zamasu's attack?

[Lord Beerus]

There is nothing suggesting that neither Goku or Vegeta knew about the mastery of SSB in the Champa arc, in fact it's shown otherwise since Goku was reserving his Blue power. He apparently mastered it at some point between Champa and FT arcs. The question is how? Can't Vegeta do it as well? My headcanon is that its related to Goku going trough the ritual amd later archiving SSB, unlike Vegeta whi had a way more forced way to obtain both SSB and SSG forms. But its not explained at all...

Goku doesn't seem to remember about the button on neither the anime or the manga trough. In fact, I wonder how the button resisted so many battles

If there was any logical point for Goku to master SSJB, it should have been after spending three years the ROSAT. I mean, if Goku didn't master it then, when did he do it? And how did he do do it? Because Vegeta obviously seems to know that Goku can master SSJB and he can't... despite the fact Vegeta trained again in the ROSAT during the Future Trunks arc.

Yeah, the Zeno button haven't come to his mind, it didn't in the anime until the end either.

Maybe he did master the SSB in the three year training in the ROSAT. But how strong is it? It's not stronger than MZ, look at him in the last panel. Maybe not even than Black SSRose, which would explain the retreat, plus he wanted to learn the Mafuba for Zamasu.

But how did Goku master SSJB and Vegeta didn't? It makes even less sense considering Vegeta knew Goku could do this and Vegeta went back into the ROSAT after losing to Goku Black the first around.

[Basako]

If there was any logical point for Goku to master SSJB, it should have been after spending three years the ROSAT. I mean, if Goku didn't master it then, when did he do it? And how did he do do it? Because Vegeta obviously seems to know that Goku can master SSJB and he can't... despite the fact Vegeta trained again in the ROSAT during the Future Trunks arc.

Yeah, the Zeno button haven't come to his mind, it didn't in the anime until the end either.

Maybe he did master the SSB in the three year training in the ROSAT. But how strong is it? It's not stronger than MZ, look at him in the last panel. Maybe not even than Black SSRose, which would explain the retreat, plus he wanted to learn the Mafuba for Zamasu.

But how did Goku master SSJB and Vegeta didn't? It makes even less sense considering Vegeta knew Goku could do this and Vegeta went back into the ROSAT after losing to Goku Black the first around.

And why would they have to master SSB or anything at the same time? Each one reaches his levels on his own time. Vegeta went to the RoSaT again and he didn't master the blue yet, again, why did he have to? It wasnt his time, but at least he did came up with a nice way of avoiding the stamina burning problem using the red, plus some extra speed to dodge attacks. Not bad.

[Legion]

Imo, Merged Zamasu is stronger than Goku SSJB. Goku can only gaining time, not beat him.

[ShinTenshin]

As for Vegeta it's pretty clear than he understand the mastering of the Goku's SSBLUE only NOW...
He see Goku SSBLUE fighting against Merged Zamasu for a long time when even himself can't (chapter 23).
Vegeta SSBLUE fight Merged Zamasu only one time.

[Lord Frieza]

This Mastered SSB is turning out worse then Rage.

Rage at least was the result of Trunks's pent up emotional turmoil, so he didn't have it all the time and could have just killed Black, and at least has Vegeta's Mutant SS2 and his own Mastered SS2 to give the form some kind of bare bones build up. MSSB is running close to the Genki Sword in terms of WTAF!

[Kanassa]

so he didn't have it all the time and could have just killed Black,

Look on the bright side, this makes it a good thing Toyo didn't do the 'Black tells Goku how he slaughtered CHi-Chi and Goten