Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[omaro34]

Piccolo is between SSJ2 and SSJ3 at this point, would be my best guess. Definitely over SSJ2 Gohan

Maybe. The way the fight looked, SSJ2 Gohan had the power advantage and got cocky again. That's why he lost.

I don't think SSJ2 Gohan had the power advantage over Piccolo. If he did, he would have been able to break free from Piccolo's stretchy stranglehold.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo is between SSJ2 and SSJ3 at this point, would be my best guess. Definitely over SSJ2 Gohan

Maybe. The way the fight looked, SSJ2 Gohan had the power advantage and got cocky again. That's why he lost.

I don't think SSJ2 Gohan had the power advantage over Piccolo. If he did, he would have been able to break free from Piccolo's stretchy stranglehold.

Frost was stronger than Piccolo and couldn't get out of his stranglehold. Piccolo never got a hit in against SSJ2 Gohan as well.

Piccolo very close to SSJ2 Gohan but he is not stronger IMO.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I don't understand why people believe Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are at Buu Saga levels in regular forms. AT THE VERY LEAST, their base forms are the same strength as that arc's SS power levels, if not higher in Goku and Vegeta's case.

Future Trunks himself is ambiguous; he doesn't have to be set-in-stone Buu Saga levels in regular forms, especially with evidence from both before AND after his arc in the anime.

For example, all evidence so far paints Goku's base power as somewhere within his old SS3 power to greatly above that, what with fighting Majin Buu level opponents consistently without transforming and considering the power levels of fighters like Piccolo below his normal level.

[Doctor.]

For example, all evidence so far paints Goku's base power as somewhere within his old SS3 power to greatly above that, what with fighting Majin Buu level opponents consistently without transforming and considering the power levels of fighters like Piccolo below his normal level.

The series is incredibly inconsistent with how it portrays Goku's battle power. At one point, he's fighting Freeza, who beat Super Saiyan Gohan in his weakest form, and is stronger than SS3 Gotenks, the next he's struggling with Super Saiyan Gohan in his own Super Saiyan form, fighting with future Trunks on even footing, needs to transform into Super Saiyan to fight Frost when Piccolo could handle him fine and is forced to go Super Saiyan against Kuririn.

You simply cannot say that "all" the evidence points towards Goku being that strong because it doesn't. His power is inconsistent, he's as strong as the writers want him to be at a given time.

[omaro34]

Maybe. The way the fight looked, SSJ2 Gohan had the power advantage and got cocky again. That's why he lost.

I don't think SSJ2 Gohan had the power advantage over Piccolo. If he did, he would have been able to break free from Piccolo's stretchy stranglehold.

Frost was stronger than Piccolo and couldn't get out of his stranglehold. Piccolo never got a hit in against SSJ2 Gohan as well.

Piccolo very close to SSJ2 Gohan but he is not stronger IMO.

You're entitled to your opinion. I mean Gohan did ask where he got all that power from. Piccolo also did make SSJ2 Gohan revert back to his base form and he passed out, and that's a greater sign of strength to me.

I believe Frost was already weakened from his previous battle with Goku so Piccolo's success against Frost is somewhat justified even though Piccolo was weaker.

[LowRyder2005]

I don't understand why people believe Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan are at Buu Saga levels in regular forms. AT THE VERY LEAST, their base forms are the same strength as that arc's SS power levels, if not higher in Goku and Vegeta's case.

Future Trunks himself is ambiguous; he doesn't have to be set-in-stone Buu Saga levels in regular forms, especially with evidence from both before AND after his arc in the anime.

For example, all evidence so far paints Goku's base power as somewhere within his old SS3 power to greatly above that, what with fighting Majin Buu level opponents consistently without transforming and considering the power levels of fighters like Piccolo below his normal level.

The answer may disappoint you, but it's because (quite clearly) not even the show has a clear idea by now on where these guys stand.

I'll reiterate my example on why I'm pretty convinced that any straightforward scale has become fundamentally flawed after this week's episode. Consider this: at bare minimum, it has been established that this Gohan as a SS2 was weaker than his Ultimate form from the Buu saga. However, if you try to go by the simplest explanation possible he also should be stronger than this current base Goku as a Super Saiyan. But this Goku was already stronger than SS3 Gotenks. Wait, he could even be many times stronger than what he was back during the Copy-Water Arc!
Finally, between Gohan and SS3 Gotenks, according to the Majin Buu saga, you shouldn't realistically have more than a *1.5 gap unless you believe that absorbing Gotenks increased Super Buu's power multifold.

Quite simply, you can't reconcile all of this mess without engendering some form of contradiction. Do note that we have been actively trying to take the show and its established narrative without any flight of fancy. The result is: you'll end up with some scale positing SS2 Gohan being both stronger than base Goku and weaker than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.
I guess that if we want to stretch this, you may that Goku was talking very comparatively. Something like "considering his original power Gohan should've fought better" being akin to... well, "considering Gohan's original multiplier was X times his Super Saiyan form he should've been able to draw upon that form and fight better", but even this doesn't make much sense, since Gohan would still be enormously stronger (something like four times as powerful). There'd also be Piccolo talking about how Gohan's unable to draw his original power when Gohan is fighting as a Super Saiyan. It simply sounds very hard to believe he's just talking about some third form; it's also only much later that he mentions that Gohan had still a more powerful form up his sleeve.

In short, some people think that for simplicity's sake we should assume the Saiyans are more or less around that realm of power. We know Gohan for one was, happening to be probably on the low end of the Buu arc scale, and he could still give Super Saiyan Goku (again, let's just say apparently) a run for his money. Clearly, this doesn't solve any contradictions, quite the opposite perhaps, but at this point it needs to be added that many other interpretations - or all of them? - trying to be as matter-of-fact as possible fall just as short.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Generally, I prefer to set such power level placements because it doesn't devalue, in my eyes anyways, the progress made since the Buu Saga whilst also keeping other characters relevant in a general sense.

I can also make more consistent rationalizations with this interpretation than I can with others.

For example, when Goku sparred with Gohan that one time, Gohan told him to stop holding back. Goku proceeds to go Super Saiyan even though it seemed as though Gohan was referring to Goku's base power. I prefer to go with the idea that he transformed for Gohan like he did with Krillin: a quick power-up in combat. Remember how that same Goku wanted to go Super Saiyan against Krillin in the episodes before that, whom was most certainly below base Saiyans?

With this way train of thought, Goku gets to fight as a Super Saiyan whilst still acknowledging that he's extremely powerful if he wasn't holding back at all. It's more visually appealing, and transformations can be shoehorned in for spectacle rather than logic.

It can also be used for earlier and later instances. Another example is when Goku told Piccolo after the tournament between Universe 6 and 7 that, due to his Ki Onset Disorder, even Piccolo could've beaten him, and it's quite clear that he means in base form. This same Goku goes on to match Copy-Vegeta, whom had trounced SS3 Gotenks, and these two are still implied to be the same power as their tournament selves, if not a little bit stronger.

It's just a personal interpretation that I can mentally work with better than other people's.

[LowRyder2005]

[...] It's just a personal interpretation that I can mentally work with better than other people's.

I do get it. I should've probably been less subtle in stating that, especially at this point, I do believe that quite a wide array of interpretations constitute fair game. Based on what we've been given and very little interposition, that is.

I think it might be important to realize that most of these interpreations depend on whether you yourself want to assume a more out-of-universe perspective ("X was Y because they writers meant it that way") or a "science fiction" attitude ("given that we know X was Y in the show, then Z"), still. Perhaps it could help you understand better were those other proponents come from; and if not, it's at least the best way I know not to get entangled in exasperated debates too often.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Gohan and Goku fought in their Super Saiyan forms and they seemed evenly matched, more-or-less. Goku and Vegeta are obviously equals. Goku was evenly matched with Future Trunks. All these 4 Saiyans are around the same level of strength. Considering how the series keeps saying that Gohan has gotten weaker and he took this long to reacquire the power he had in the Boo arc, then you can say the Saiyans are somewhere around the Boo arc strength levels, maybe slightly more powerful. Considering Goten and Trunks were already a match for the Super Saiyans in that arc, they are here also.

This whole "Tagoma > base Gohan > Piccolo" thing has gotten out of hand. Tagoma tanked Piccolo's hits, fine. Then Gohan caught Tagoma off-guard with a Ki blast and it did no damage to him at all. I don't see how this implies base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo, people have always taken this out of proportion and now the series is proving to you with this recent episode how this interpretation is wrong and people still can't see how.

I don't understand your level of intensity either. You should take it down a notch.

Current SS1 Goku, Current SS1 Gohan, Current SS1 F. Trunks, Current SS1 Vegeta, and Buu arc Super Saiyan 1s are all around the same level of power. It's just a way to gauge the region of power.

SS1 Goku/Vegeta/Gohan are now around the same level. SS1 Gotenks is still above them. That Copy-Vegeta fight was SSG Goku and Vegeta.

You are over-thinking this whole thing far too much.

Why are you saying this to me? I agree with you.

Haha, sorry, it was easier to quote you than find his specific post where he was the last person. I was directing it towards PerhapsTheOtherOne. Yeah, I agree with you totally, Doctor.

[BWri]

If Tenshinhan is shown as strong as a SSJ2 what will you guys think? Personally I'd think it's even less believeable than 17's huge boost.

I have a hard time seeing Tenshihan at SSJ1 level, let alone at SSJ2.

Again, WHAT SPECIFIC LEVEL of each one do you speak of? People need to specify this, because they aren't all the same.

There's Goku's current SS level, Gohan's current SS level, Goten's current SS level, Goku's Namek Saga SS level, Vegeta's Cell Games SS level, etc.

So WHICH ONE do you speak of?

Lol, that's true, I second this motion. If I were to guess, I'd say they meant current -- I mean look at what Krillin can now do.

Maybe because they were deliberately trying not to kill the soldiers as they stated themselves? Besides, Piccolo is already capable of "Magic Materialization" so it's completely possible that he can change the weight of his clothes whenever he wants and as much as he wants. Not only because the same weights he wore back in the Saiyan arc won't be efficient but also because Piccolo does have two different readings given for him in the Saiyan arc- 327 before the fight with Raditz and 329 afterwards.

I think Tagoma is a little weaker than Freeza on Namek in terms of battle power. It would make complete sense too since Sorbet mentions Ginyu as the greatest comparison he could think of. Basically:

SS Gohan > Piccolo (Full Power) >> 100% Freeza > Tagoma >> Base Gohan > Piccolo (with really, REALLY weights) >> Ginyu

Well that's better than any reason as I can think of and it's the only way I can even remotely wrap my head around RoF in light of Episode 88. Tagoma can still be fairly strong in that scenario. I still put him above Super Perfect Cell at the very least.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Gohan's "original power" and/or "original strength" in context was his Potential unleashed state in which he no longer needs Super Saiyan. It wasn't a specific power level. It's a state. The state itself is Gohan's original strength.

Base Gohan was stated and shown to be Ultimate during the exhibition match by Toei before he got his bang in this episode and he has the exact same traits that he had during BOG. His Ultimate form just didn't have all of his potential in it which is why Super Saiyan was still useful. Gohan in Super was stated to have potential greater than post god Goku & Vegeta, so obviously his Boo arc power level which he showed during the exhibition match is nowhere near his max potential.

Base Gohan was equal to base Goku, whom is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. He then got 50x stronger as an SSJ and fought evenly with Goku. He went SSJ2 against Piccolo and fought at a level 2x greater than that. Ultimate Gohan during the Boo arc wasn't even 2x stronger than Gotenks.

[Hugo Boss]

Gohan's "original power" and/or "original strength" in context was his Potential unleashed state in which he no longer needs Super Saiyan. It wasn't a specific power level. It's a state. The state itself is Gohan's original strength.

Base Gohan was stated and shown to be Ultimate during the exhibition match by Toei before he got his bang in this episode and he has the exact same traits that he had during BOG. His Ultimate form just didn't have all of his potential in it which is why Super Saiyan was still useful. Gohan in Super was stated to have potential greater than post god Goku & Vegeta, so obviously his Boo arc power level which he showed during the exhibition match is nowhere near his max potential.

Base Gohan was equal to base Goku, whom is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. He then got 50x stronger as an SSJ and fought evenly with Goku. He went SSJ2 against Piccolo and fought at a level 2x greater than that. Ultimate Gohan during the Boo arc wasn't even 2x stronger than Gotenks.

What subs are you basing this on? In Crunchyroll's, Piccolo mentions the power Gohan used when he fought Boo. So, as a SS2, Gohan doesn't have that power.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[LowRyder2005]

Future Trunks also states that he can't sense the same "brimming power" from base Gohan when he sees him. Therefore, base Gohan in the Future Trunks arc is most certainly not Ultimate Gohan, who would have dwarfed Super Saiyan 2 Gohan strength-wise; in fact, we can reasonably conclude that Gohan is weaker than base Gohan from after the Cell game, the last time Trunks saw him. Both times base Gohan was in a relaxed state and not fighting.

We also don't know if Base/ Super Saiyan Goku and Base/ Super Saiyan Goku are equal at all, among many other things.

[ZombieVito]

Both post above me should put an end to the whole base Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks matter.

That's not possible anymore. The only way to fix that is with Saiyan beyond God.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Given: Base Goku = Base Vegeta = Base Copy-Vegeta
Given: Gohan has been called very weak.

Evidence 1: Base Goku was shown to fight evenly with Base Copy-Vegeta who beat SS3 Gotenks.

Therefore: SS3 Gotenks < Base Goku

Evidence 2: Base Goku and Base Gohan fought evenly. SS1 Goku and SS1 Gohan fought evenly.

Therefore: SS3 Gotenks < Base Goku = Base Gohan < SS1 Goku = SS1 Gohan

Therefore: The only Base that Gohan has that is above SS3 Gotenks is Ultimate. So Gohan can stack SS1 on top of Ultimate.

Therefore: SS3 Gotenks < Base Goku = Ultimate Gohan < SS1 Goku = SS1 Gohan

Evidence 3: Gohan is indisputably shown in Ep. 88 to only reach Ultimate after training with Piccolo which is after his fight with Goku.

Therefore: Gohan did not use Ultimate on top of SS1. It was just his Base form.

Therefore: He never reached SS3 Gotenks level until he used Ultimate in Ep. 88.

Therefore: Base Gohan was not at SS3 Gotenks level when he fought Goku.

Therefore: Base Goku was not at SS3 Gotenks level.

How can Base Goku be weaker than SS3 Gotenks and above SS3 Gotenks? There must be an SSGod form that has black hair.

QED.

[BWri]

Both post above me should put an end to the whole base Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks matter.

That's not possible anymore. The only way to fix that is with Saiyan beyond God.

The boys got the ol' irrelevant character power nerf. Dang, even the Saiyans can't escape it! In all serious though, does anyone entertain the idea that the boys just got weaker? I mean, even Vegeta doesn't want to use them in the U6 tournament arc. I don't really think this, but it is a possibility in the new material so I figured I'd bring it up. If they got even a little weaker individually then the multiplication for Gotenks power level is a lot lower.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Gohan's "original power" and/or "original strength" in context was his Potential unleashed state in which he no longer needs Super Saiyan. It wasn't a specific power level. It's a state. The state itself is Gohan's original strength.

Base Gohan was stated and shown to be Ultimate during the exhibition match by Toei before he got his bang in this episode and he has the exact same traits that he had during BOG. His Ultimate form just didn't have all of his potential in it which is why Super Saiyan was still useful. Gohan in Super was stated to have potential greater than post god Goku & Vegeta, so obviously his Boo arc power level which he showed during the exhibition match is nowhere near his max potential.

Base Gohan was equal to base Goku, whom is stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. He then got 50x stronger as an SSJ and fought evenly with Goku. He went SSJ2 against Piccolo and fought at a level 2x greater than that. Ultimate Gohan during the Boo arc wasn't even 2x stronger than Gotenks.

What subs are you basing this on? In Crunchyroll's, Piccolo mentions the power Gohan used when he fought Boo. So, as a SS2, Gohan doesn't have that power.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Yeah, Piccolo wanted Gohan to use the power he used against Boo. The Potential unleashed state that is above his Super Saiyan. If Gohan is still using Super Saiyan, then it isn't the same power he used against Boo. Just like Beerus stating that Super Saiyan was the power that Goku defeated Freeza with. Doesn't mean that BOG Goku=Namek Goku and going by your logic all forms of Super Saiyan are the same power because they're Super Saiyan which they clearly aren't.

Gohan was stated to be Ultimate before this episode, before he gained his bang back. Therefore he was Ultimate during the exhibition match. He simply has more potential than before, so even though he was equal to his Boo arc level, he still benefited from Super Saiyan.

Ultimate Gohan(Full potential)>SSJ2 Gohan>SSJ Gohan=SSJ Goku>Base Goku=Base Gohan(Ultimate)=BOG Ultimate Gohan=Boo arc Ulimate Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks

[ChiefWamsutta]

Yeah, Piccolo wanted Gohan to use the power he used against Boo. The Potential unleashed state that is above his Super Saiyan. If Gohan is still using Super Saiyan, then it isn't the same power he used against Boo. Just like Beerus stating that Super Saiyan was the power that Goku defeated Freeza with. Doesn't mean that BOG Goku=Namek Goku and going by your logic all forms of Super Saiyan are the same power because they're Super Saiyan which they clearly aren't.

Gohan was stated to be Ultimate before this episode, before he gained his bang back. Therefore he was Ultimate during the exhibition match. He simply has more potential than before, so even though he was equal to his Boo arc level, he still benefited from Super Saiyan.

Ultimate Gohan(Full potential)>SSJ2 Gohan>SSJ Gohan=SSJ Goku>Base Goku=Base Gohan(Ultimate)=BOG Ultimate Gohan=Boo arc Ulimate Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks

Oh, my god! Seriously?! It's really not this complicated. You're making this unnecessarily confusing when it doesn't need to be. This is just wrong.

[Marlowe89]

Oh, my god! Seriously?! It's really not this complicated. You're making this unnecessarily confusing when it doesn't need to be. This is just wrong.

You gotta remember that you're replying to the same guy who doesn't think "original strength" means original strength. He's twisting the meaning of an unambiguous term only because it's convenient for what he wants to believe.

There's no point in continuing this discussion either way since Gohan is apparently going to become significantly stronger than he is now anyway.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Personally, I feel that Goku and Vegeta's base forms are around Ultimate Gohan's full power currently.

Remember when Goku wanted to go Super Saiyan against Krillin when the two were training together again at Roshi's place a few episodes before Goku's spar with Gohan? Goku apparently likes to use Super Saiyan when he fights people for training and/or fun. People often forget that this exact same Goku that wanted to spar with Krillin as a SS was the one that would go on to spar with Gohan as a SS just a few episodes later on.

In the arc prior, Goku told Piccolo that even he could've beaten Goku's current state due to the Ki Onset Disorder, implying that he couldn't have normally. This same Goku is implied to not be drastically different from the one that participated in the Universe 6/7 Tournament, and would also go on to fight Copy-Vegeta, an exact power match for Vegeta that had curbstomped SS3 Gotenks.

Then look at the current Universal Survival Arc, where Goku fights the strongest of the three brothers of the Trio De Dangers, Bergamo, and is relatively even until the guy uses his special ability to become stronger from Goku's attacks. The strongest out of a bunch where the youngest brother had approached Majin Buu's power with a type of fruit, and no implication that Bergamo was only stronger than his brothers' natural states, just the strongest in general.

Goku even laments that Bergamo's power-ups came from Goku's attacks and not his own power.