"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Noah]

I can't hear all of the whining over how awesome this panel is:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

That Merged Zamasu expression

Was that traced from somewhere? I remember this expression in the original manga

[Lord Beerus]

I pray that Goku didn't have the ability to master Super Saiyan Blue before fighting in the Future Trunks arc. Because if he did, he's a piece of shit. Because he knew could have ended this arc the second he and Vegeta went to fight Goku Black and Zamasu for the first time, but chose not to. And it makes everything that happened in Chapter 23 all the more infuriatingly stupid and selfish.

If he did, doesn't that mean Vegito should have known how to master SSB as well?

You're absolutely right. Vegetto should have ended that fight instantly.

[LowRyder2005]

Unless it's clarified further, it's safe to say that Goku probably possessed that skill all along ever since the arc started; I guess he probably mastered it after the U6 vs. U7 tournament though, since he fought Hit in SSG and still relied on Blue for the "single-blow" added burst of power.

This Mastered SSB is turning out worse then Rage.

Rage at least was the result of Trunks's pent up emotional turmoil, so he didn't have it all the time and could have just killed Black, and at least has Vegeta's Mutant SS2 and his own Mastered SS2 to give the form some kind of bare bones build up. MSSB is running close to the Genki Sword in terms of WTAF!

Well, in all likelihood the implication is that he could have beaten Rosé Black much more easily than Vegeta. but it's also very apparent that the chain of events in chapter 21-22 basically didn't even give him the time to put his hands on Black at all. The existence of Future Zamas and his immortality (consequentially, the sudden priority becoming a plan to negate Zamas' advantage) are revealed one after another when Vegeta was already beating Black up.
Also, it all plays out when the Senzu beans are destroyed and Goku dropped out of his Blue form which - I'm lead to believe - would still handicap if he immediately transformed back into that same form.

As I said in the power junkies thread, I think some of you might be a little overreacting because they subconsciously expected Merged Zamas to be comparable in power to his anime self.

[OLKv3]

I pray that Goku didn't have the ability to master Super Saiyan Blue before fighting in the Future Trunks arc. Because if he did, he's a piece of shit. Because he knew could have ended this arc the second he and Vegeta went to fight Goku Black and Zamasu for the first time, but chose not to. And it makes everything that happened in Chapter 23 all the more infuriatingly stupid and selfish.

If he did, doesn't that mean Vegito should have known how to master SSB as well?

You're absolutely right. Vegetto should have ended that fight instantly.

It had nothing to do with running out of power. It had to do with Vegetto having TOO MUCH power, too much for the potara to handle for non-gods.
He blasted him in half and was surprised at how fast he regenerated. He then sliced him up, then went for the immediate kill. He got too powerful, and fusion ended
Vegetto could never win because the moment he builds his power, he's defused. Zamasu is immortal, so the only way to kill him is the same way you'd kill Buu

[Lord Frieza]

Unless it's clarified further, it's safe to say that Goku probably possessed that skill all along ever since the arc started; I guess he probably mastered it after the U6 vs. U7 tournament though, since he fought Hit in SSG and still relied on Blue for the "single-blow" added burst of power.

This Mastered SSB is turning out worse then Rage.

Rage at least was the result of Trunks's pent up emotional turmoil, so he didn't have it all the time and could have just killed Black, and at least has Vegeta's Mutant SS2 and his own Mastered SS2 to give the form some kind of bare bones build up. MSSB is running close to the Genki Sword in terms of WTAF!

Well, in all likelihood the implication is that he could have beaten Rosé Black much more easily than Vegeta. but it's also very apparent that the chain of events in chapter 21-22 basically didn't even give him the time to put his hands on Black at all. The existence of Future Zamas and his immortality (consequentially, the sudden priority becoming a plan to negate Zamas' advantage) are revealed one after another when Vegeta was already beating Black up.

As I said in the power junkies thread, I think some of you might be a little overreacting because they subconsciously expected Merged Zamas to be comparable in power to his anime self.

Now that is fair, this Fused Zamasu is not as powerful as the one in the anime. In the anime there is evidence that Future Zamasu is stronger then when he battled Goku, the problem being Trunks's inconsistent power muddies the water.

However it has never once been stated that SSB has the same problem as SS did. SS used to burn to much power while SSB just burns energy when transforming and powering down...a problem that apparently is negated by just dropping to SSG.

Now Goku has battled Zamasu already and almost got killed for his trouble.

So what the manga is telling me....is that without the power drain SSB makes Goku strong enough to match Fused Zamasu. Then why the hell would you use the form at all if the power you lose when transforming is THAT big until you master it? That makes it sound like the user loses as much as they gain, as if going Blue throws away 25% to 40% of the users power right off the bat. That makes the form almost as bad as SS3!

[LowRyder2005]

Unless it's clarified further, it's safe to say that Goku probably possessed that skill all along ever since the arc started; I guess he probably mastered it after the U6 vs. U7 tournament though, since he fought Hit in SSG and still relied on Blue for the "single-blow" added burst of power.

This Mastered SSB is turning out worse then Rage.

Rage at least was the result of Trunks's pent up emotional turmoil, so he didn't have it all the time and could have just killed Black, and at least has Vegeta's Mutant SS2 and his own Mastered SS2 to give the form some kind of bare bones build up. MSSB is running close to the Genki Sword in terms of WTAF!

In all likelihood the implication is that he could have beaten Rosé Black much more easily than Vegeta. but it's also very apparent that the chain of events in chapter 21-22 basically didn't even give him the time to put his hands on Black at all. The existence of Future Zamas and his immortality (consequentially, the sudden priority becoming a plan to negate Zamas' advantage) are revealed one after another when Vegeta was already beating Black up.

As I said in the power junkies thread, I think some of you might be a little overreacting because they subconsciously expected Merged Zamas to be comparable in power to his anime self.

Now that is fair, this Fused Zamasu is not as powerful as the one in the anime. In the anime there is evidence that Future Zamasu is stronger then when he battled Goku, the problem being Trunks's inconsistent power muddies the water.

However it has never once been stated that SSB has the same problem as SS did. SS used to burn to much power while SSB just burns energy when transforming and powering down...a problem that apparently is negated by just dropping to SSG.

Now Goku has battled Zamasu already and almost got killed for his trouble.

So what the manga is telling me....is that without the power drain SSB makes Goku strong enough to match Fused Zamasu. Then why the hell would you use the form at all if the power you lose when transforming is THAT big until you master it? That makes it sound like the user loses such a massive chunk of their power when transforming that you lose as much as you gain, as if going Blue throws out 25% to 40% of the users power.....that makes the form almost as bad as SS3!

Well, take it like this: in the U7 tourney it's stated that dropping out of the form makes you lose almost all of your power. Here it's been added that the unmastered state Vegeta (and most likely Goku) possessed at the time of the tournament and the current arc has also this specific energy strain.
So, yeah, the form possesses several handicaps. I think it's simply an intended trade-off for the form's high power output; trade-off which, on the other hand, has already been partly negated: while he can't avoid the "drop out" problem, we know Goku can at least avoid the "energy consumption" issue.

The current SSB Goku is for the first time at full power and basically fighting someone other than regular Zamas. The result?
He's apparently able to hold his own against the "stronger-than-Black" Merged Zamas. Do note that Goku dropped to base and Super Saiyan before going back to God, and then to Blue when (desperately? I mean, he still was refusing to fight in tandem) trying to attack Merged Zamas, and that's why he "didn't have enough stamina" to try to stall Merged Zamas.

In short, I may be tempted to call this arc almost "refined" for Dragon Ball Super standards as far as its fictional rules are concerned; if not for the conundrum involving SS2 Vegeta/ SS3 Goku/ SS2 Trunks/ SS2 Black, that is.

[Doctor.]

I can't hear all of the whining over how awesome this panel is:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

That Merged Zamasu expression

Was that traced from somewhere? I remember this expression in the original manga

Looks a bit similar to Freeza getting punched in the face by Kaioken x20 Goku, but not exactly the same. Probably just a coincidence, can't think of anything else.

[Miracles]

Is this Goku mastering Blue even official or just theory?

[LowRyder2005]

Is this Goku mastering Blue even official or just theory?

It's not only reported verbatim in the manga through Vegeta's words, it's basically what the entire chapter revolves around.

[batistabus]

Can we please make using the word "ass-pull" a bannable offense? Glad to see nothing has changed here since last month.

Really love that Trunks has some Kaioshin disciple abilities. It's clearly Toyotaro's idea, but it really feels like a Toriyama "Oh, this was the case the whole time!" moment. It makes sense, it fits in with Toyotaro developing that part of the story earlier in the arc, it's not overpowered, and it's a cool callback to established lore.

I think it's pretty great how Toyotaro takes elements from Dragon Ball material not created by Toriyama and brings them into his slightly more "canon" continuity. We see this in the aliens from his RoF chapters, Moscow's character design (Lewd), and now Zamasu's portal punches (Janemba).

I'm not sure if Goku had the fully-mastered SSB this whole time, but I think I'd really like if that were the case. It totally makes sense why he wouldn't have used it yet, because he was the only one who could seal Zamasu (which required a significant portion of his power). It also gives the impression that he was allowing Vegeta a fair chance to show off what he had learned, and that he was interested enough to sit back and observe. It feels a lot like Goku finding a better way to improve Super Saiyan during the Cell arc, or Goku not using Super Saiyan 3 in his fight against Majin Vegeta. Not sure why people think this means that Blue Vegetto shouldn't have defused quickly...Potara couldn't handle the power either way.

I think people are blowing Goku's mastered SSB out of proportion. Yes, it's better than Vegeta's method. Yes, it allows Goku to have more success against Zamasu. However, it doesn't take away from how awesome Vegeta was in Chapter 22, and it doesn't mean Goku is equal in power to merged Zamasu.

As always, love the art, and I'm really looking forward to the fully translated chapter!

[The gr]

This is my favorite shot of ssb goku

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Vegeta didn't make his SSJ2 multiplier greater. He just raised his overall strength in the heat of the moment against Beerus. Much like what Gohan and Oob did. Plus, Future Trunks didn't increase the multiplier of SSJ2. He just tapped into more power within the form. Much like how Goku and Gohan made their SSJ forms stronger without necessarily increasing its multiplier.

So, Vegeta is x2000 stronger than Goku, and Trunks is x4 stronger than Goku?

But it's still a "Rage Boost" on the basis that, just like in the movie where Vegeta was a SSJ when the moment occured, it temporarily raised his strength exponentially so that he could combat an opponent much stronger than him.

Show me proof of that.

SSJB only drains stamina and strength when you power in and out of the form. He didn't need to power down but he chose to and deliberately crippled his chances of beating Hit.

No, it also drains stamina after staying in the form for a while. That's why Vegeta uses it in boosts along with SSG, and why Goku keeps its power inside his body to maintain it in this chapter.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The concept of mastering the transformation of Super Saiyan Blue is interesting yes.
This causes the transformation to have more screen time, as an end goal to fully dominate it.
Not to mention that it gives the impression that it has a great potential to be explored.
Is something the anime has not done yet and this has left me disappointed.

I just think that the idea of Goku rivaling Merged Zamasu is not good. There's no way he has so much power hidden, but choose to use just now.
By the last page, it seems like he's just Gaining time, but the talk of vegeta is intriguing. Your rival should at least dominate the form as well, it would be better for both of them fighting together and creating strategies. It would be better if Zamasu was already worn out from the fight against Vegetto.

But, many people are attacking the manga without even reading, better wait for the translation to know if there is an explanation

[HeroR]

The concept of mastering the transformation of Super Saiyan Blue is interesting yes.
This causes the transformation to have more screen time, as an end goal to fully dominate it.
Not to mention that it gives the impression that it has a great potential to be explored.
Is something the anime has not done yet and this has left me disappointed.

I just think that the idea of Goku rivaling Merged Zamasu is not good. There's no way he has so much power hidden, but choose to use just now.
By the last page, it seems like he's just Gaining time, but the talk of vegeta is intriguing. Your rival should at least dominate the form as well, it would be better for both of them fighting together and creating strategies. It would be better if Zamasu was already worn out from the fight against Vegetto.

But, many people are attacking the manga without even reading, better wait for the translation to know if there is an explanation

That is because in the anime Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is basically Mastered Super Saiyan. That is why Goku talked about how it was a calm form with great ki control.

[Lord Beerus]

So, Vegeta is x2000 stronger than Goku, and Trunks is x4 stronger than Goku?

Well, that's the scenario the manga is presenting. I think it's best to assume that characters as just as strong as the plot needs them to be.

Show me proof of that.

It's basically the same case with Gohan and Oob. Every time their power spiked when their emotions seriously flared up, it went right back to normal after a very brief period. Vegeta's case is no different. He got really strong when he got very angry, he was able to somewhat close the gap with Beerus and fight him, then he after he laid into Beerus his battle power went straight back down to normal. And his SSJ2 rage boost was never mentioned or brought up again. Why? Because it was temporary. If it was permanent, something like this would have been distinctly and specifically mentioned when he fought SSJ Goku Black by either himself or Goku. Especially considering how important of plot point it is that SSJ2 Vegeta beats around SSJ Goku Black.

No, it also drains stamina after staying in the form for a while. That's why Vegeta uses it in boosts along with SSG, and why Goku keeps its power inside his body to maintain it in this chapter.

Whis literally states in Chapter 13 that Super Saiyans Blue is form that can't be transformed in and out of in succession because the stamina that it wastes in that regards is too much. Hence why Vegeta only had 1/10 of his strength remaining when faced Hit as a SSJB in the Champa arc.

[Dbzfan94]

It's cool to see Goku in the blue shirt again. We haven't seen that since Kid Buu. Anime Super barely has actual battle damage, so this is nice to see.

[Dbzfan94]

I can't hear all of the whining over how awesome this panel is:
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Zamasu pulled a Janemba

[dbzfan7]

Hopefully the full thing with translations comes out soon. I forget how soon Viz does it now, but was pretty quick for the last chapter.

Not a huge fan of what I am seeing, but it's so far not topping 66 in either being as awesome or as fucking horrendous at the same time. Though the two have always had a weird way with stuff I hate from either one. The manga usually tries to have an explanation for its bullshit, even if you don't buy into it, while the anime usually does not even bother trying to explain it's asinine moments. Now which is more offensive on a base level is really up to the interpreter and reader/viewer, but I appreciate trying to explain and failing, over nothing being explained ever.

[Totamo]

I'm actually beginning to like the anime better, honestly. Its what they add to the story that makes or breaks it for me.


Say what you want about the genki dama sword, at least IT LOOKED COOL!!!!!!!


This mastered super saiyan blue form which i agree should have a high increase in power, it just seems lazy and makes Goku look like an asshole, just like in the buu saga.

[Totamo]

Hopefully the full thing with translations comes out soon. I forget how soon Viz does it now, but was pretty quick for the last chapter.

Not a huge fan of what I am seeing, but it's so far not topping 66 in either being as awesome or as fucking horrendous at the same time. Though the two have always had a weird way with stuff I hate from either one. The manga usually tries to have an explanation for its bullshit, even if you don't buy into it, while the anime usually does not even bother trying to explain it's asinine moments. Now which is more offensive on a base level is really up to the interpreter and reader/viewer, but I appreciate trying to explain and failing, over nothing being explained ever.

wow, you and dbz94 are too different people!