Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[DBZ Macky]

The way I saw it, Gohan's return to power was more of a mental thing than anything. He's probably stronger than he was in the Boo arc but not by a very, very large amount. If he does give SSB Goku a good fight, then Goku would most probably be holding back just like he did with Kuririn and #17.

If there's one thing I've realized over the past few months, it's that Goku's not very reliable to gauge someone's strength. Plus Goku seems a little too fond of his Blue form nowadays.

[Ki Breaker]

Plus Goku seems a little too fond of his Blue form nowadays.

I don't blame him, that form helps control power to such a high degree it's very useful, he can go from 0 to 100 real quick without stopping mid battle to transform, just go blue once and voila

[TheMikado]

Plus Goku seems a little too fond of his Blue form nowadays.

I don't blame him, that form helps control power to such a high degree it's very useful, he can go from 0 to 100 real quick without stopping mid battle to transform, just go blue once and voila

So why use anything other than SSB?

[Ki Breaker]

Plus Goku seems a little too fond of his Blue form nowadays.

I don't blame him, that form helps control power to such a high degree it's very useful, he can go from 0 to 100 real quick without stopping mid battle to transform, just go blue once and voila

So why use anything other than SSB?

I don't know, maybe he can't sustain SSB for as long as he can do SS..

[DBZ Macky]

Maybe he's just attracted to the Blue form in the same manner that Toyo is attracted to the Red form? I mean that's always a valid explanation and makes much more sense than some "Water Tank Theory" (correctly abbreviated as 'WTF') or shit like that.

[Ki Breaker]

Maybe he's just attracted to the Blue form in the same manner that Toyo is attracted to the Red form?

Eeh, I don't know about that, he can't see himself when he transforms, it's not that he can get off on the colour blue or something..
What I said earlier is what makes most sense to me with what the show tried to tell us, either that or goku like being a god..

[TheMikado]

I don't blame him, that form helps control power to such a high degree it's very useful, he can go from 0 to 100 real quick without stopping mid battle to transform, just go blue once and voila

So why use anything other than SSB?

I don't know, maybe he can't sustain SSB for as long as he can do SS..

Idk Goku didn't seem to have much trouble with SSB x KK x10 and even stood around casually. Plus if they was the case he definitely wouldn't have used it for a baseball game.

[Ki Breaker]

So why use anything other than SSB?

I don't know, maybe he can't sustain SSB for as long as he can do SS..

Idk Goku didn't seem to have much trouble with SSB x KK x10 and even stood around casually. Plus if they was the case he definitely wouldn't have used it for a baseball game.

Goku lost his ability to use ki after the 10x kaioken man..
Anytime he used it after he didn't add a number, it's the standard 2..

Blue was used to throw the fastest ball he can in baseball

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I don't know where you are getting this from. Provide sources, please. I'm talking about one particular line, which is worded in very clear English. It doesn't make sense for Piccolo to call the power Gohan used against Boo if he has been putting out more power than that all along. Not to mention your interpretation ignores the context of the episode, which is putting Gohan back to shape. It would be incredible that Gohan can get stronger only by studying and researching.

Potential unleashed is the power he used against Boo. It doesn't mean that he's as strong as he was in the Boo arc, just like Super Saiyan being the power that defeated Freeza doesn't make BOG Goku=Namek Goku. Yes, the context of the episode was getting Gohan back into shape. His skills were faded and he couldn't bring out his true power, which was his Potential unleashed state above his Super Saiyan.

Gohan before this episode and during the exhibition match before he got back his bang is stated and shown by Toei's own design art to be Ultimate,
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then there's Gohan being equal to Goku in the same form, so him being below Gotenks is flat out wrong.
All he did this episode was regain his full Potential unleashed state that is above Super Saiyan, which as stated by Piccolo is the power he used against Boo.

That is very far-stretched to say that it is not implied absolutely anywhere.

Even if Goku confirmed he had two bases, you wouldn't accept it, dude. You kinda twist stuff.

It's not implied anywhere. No character has even made mention to Goku and Vegeta's base forms being abnormally strong in any instance. Most of the "evidence" for it is blatant reaching.
If Goku was stated to have a second base, I would accept it with no problem. The problem here is that this theory was pulled out of thin air and it's being treated as fact for no reason.

[TheMikado]

I don't know, maybe he can't sustain SSB for as long as he can do SS..

Idk Goku didn't seem to have much trouble with SSB x KK x10 and even stood around casually. Plus if they was the case he definitely wouldn't have used it for a baseball game.

Goku lost his ability to use ki after the 10x kaioken man..
Anytime he used it after he didn't add a number, it's the standard 2..

Blue was used to throw the fastest ball he can in baseball

I don't see what the after affects have to do with his stamina usage.
The point you made is that he may not be able to sustain SSB for long and my response is that he stacks it with KK x 10 and is able to stand around with it without visible strain.
Further baseball games can last hours and you would not use a form which you cannot sustain long.

His lack of usage due to the after affects does not negate his ability to sustain the transformation under arguably more intense and longer conditions, and the evidence shown does not support the idea that his is unable to maintain the form long.

[ZombieVito]

Can we say buu saga mystic gohan is equal to goku base who faught with freeza?

Nah the Base Goku who fought Final From Frieza was stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku who fought Beerus.

But goku was matching gohan in base after that fight, so mystic base if goes god it should be way stonger than SSB now..

Goku wasn't using Saiyan beyond God when he fought Gohan.

[Ki Breaker]

I don't see what the after affects have to do with his stamina usage.
The point you made is that he may not be able to sustain SSB for long and my response is that he stacks it with KK x 10 and is able to stand around with it without visible strain.

Goku specifically said one line, "even blue won't last long" just after he pulled the kaioken.
The reason it lasted that long because he was pushing himself too hard, we see him grip his arm out of pain in the fight..
This pushing isn't natural, and that's the reason he had the ki issue, king kai said it's bad to push yourself so much.. he goes on to say this is because of using ki in a reckless way..

Further baseball games can last hours and you would not use a form which you cannot sustain long..

Goku didn't know how long a match lasts, he is new to baseball, all he knew was he had to throw the ball fast

[Ki Breaker]

Nah the Base Goku who fought Final From Frieza was stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku who fought Beerus.

But goku was matching gohan in base after that fight, so mystic base if goes god it should be way stonger than SSB now..

Goku wasn't using Saiyan beyond God when he fought Gohan.

I use my theory with Two base theory as a support as well, but there is no mention of this in the show itself, I am looking for answers from the show if possible

[TheSaiyanGod]

Can we say buu saga mystic gohan is equal to goku base who faught with freeza?

Nah the Base Goku who fought Final From Frieza was stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku who fought Beerus.

Because you think that the base form of Goku has SSG level of the fight against Beerus?
If so, innumerable characters would have surpassed Goku SSG.
That level of SSJ was only used against Beerus, because he absorbed the power of SSG.

But in the '' Volume F '' that he launched at the time of the FNF, it is said that '' The Saiyans can control divine power without changing their form. ''
He has control over the Ki and learned to use it in SSB, but still his base is very strong considering that Freeza in the first form defeated gohan SSJ easily, and in the final form his power multiplies several times, and yet Goku was superior

[ZombieVito]

Can we say buu saga mystic gohan is equal to goku base who faught with freeza?

Nah the Base Goku who fought Final From Frieza was stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku who fought Beerus.

Because you think that the base form of Goku has SSG level of the fight against Beerus?
If so, innumerable characters would have surpassed Goku SSG.
That level of SSJ was only used against Beerus, because he absorbed the power of SSG.

But in the '' Volume F '' that he launched at the time of the FNF, it is said that '' The Saiyans can control divine power without changing their form. ''
He has control over the Ki and learned to use it in SSB, but still his base is very strong considering that Freeza in the first form defeated gohan SSJ easily, and in the final form his power multiplies several times, and yet Goku was superior

This was actually said in there? That pretty much seals the deal on Saiyan beyond God.

[TheMikado]

I don't see what the after affects have to do with his stamina usage.
The point you made is that he may not be able to sustain SSB for long and my response is that he stacks it with KK x 10 and is able to stand around with it without visible strain.

Goku specifically said one line, "even blue won't last long" just after he pulled the kaioken.
The reason it lasted that long because he was pushing himself too hard, we see him grip his arm out of pain in the fight..
This pushing isn't natural, and that's the reason he had the ki issue, king kai said it's bad to push yourself so much.. he goes on to say this is because of using ki in a reckless way..

Further baseball games can last hours and you would not use a form which you cannot sustain long..

Goku didn't know how long a match lasts, he is new to baseball, all he knew was he had to throw the ball fast

I thought that line was in reference to lasting long against hit in terms of being about to fight him and the "even" implies it would last longer than his other forms.
I understand the pushing using kaioken, but we are talking about just SSB. I was pointing out that even with 10x its normal ki use SSB did not seem to have time limit versus his other forms.
But you got me on Goku not knowing about Baseball, but it still seems silly to use it if the form doesn't last long and drains ki.

[TheMikado]

Nah the Base Goku who fought Final From Frieza was stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku who fought Beerus.

Because you think that the base form of Goku has SSG level of the fight against Beerus?
If so, innumerable characters would have surpassed Goku SSG.
That level of SSJ was only used against Beerus, because he absorbed the power of SSG.

But in the '' Volume F '' that he launched at the time of the FNF, it is said that '' The Saiyans can control divine power without changing their form. ''
He has control over the Ki and learned to use it in SSB, but still his base is very strong considering that Freeza in the first form defeated gohan SSJ easily, and in the final form his power multiplies several times, and yet Goku was superior

This was actually said in there? That pretty much seals the deal on Saiyan beyond God.

And an in-universe example of the two base theory. It would imply they can flip it on and off without a visual indicator.

[Ki Breaker]

Because you think that the base form of Goku has SSG level of the fight against Beerus?
If so, innumerable characters would have surpassed Goku SSG.
That level of SSJ was only used against Beerus, because he absorbed the power of SSG.

But in the '' Volume F '' that he launched at the time of the FNF, it is said that '' The Saiyans can control divine power without changing their form. ''
He has control over the Ki and learned to use it in SSB, but still his base is very strong considering that Freeza in the first form defeated gohan SSJ easily, and in the final form his power multiplies several times, and yet Goku was superior

This was actually said in there? That pretty much seals the deal on Saiyan beyond God.

And an in-universe example of the two base theory. It would imply they can flip it on and off without a visual indicator.

I have never heard of this. Ever.
TheSaiyanGod, I would like to see the source please

[Ki Breaker]

I don't see what the after affects have to do with his stamina usage.
The point you made is that he may not be able to sustain SSB for long and my response is that he stacks it with KK x 10 and is able to stand around with it without visible strain.

Goku specifically said one line, "even blue won't last long" just after he pulled the kaioken.
The reason it lasted that long because he was pushing himself too hard, we see him grip his arm out of pain in the fight..
This pushing isn't natural, and that's the reason he had the ki issue, king kai said it's bad to push yourself so much.. he goes on to say this is because of using ki in a reckless way..

Further baseball games can last hours and you would not use a form which you cannot sustain long..

Goku didn't know how long a match lasts, he is new to baseball, all he knew was he had to throw the ball fast

I thought that line was in reference to lasting long against hit in terms of being about to fight him and the "even" implies it would last longer than his other forms.
I understand the pushing using kaioken, but we are talking about just SSB. I was pointing out that even with 10x its normal ki use SSB did not seem to have time limit versus his other forms.

My point was SS can be used longer than SSB, even if we ignore everything, SS has been mastered to the point of maintaining it in sleep, but SSB needs very specific conditions to even transform, It's pretty natural for the form which you can even sleep in to be better at stamina usage than the one you haven't displayed such a feat with

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

My point was SS can be used longer than SSB, even if we ignore everything, SS has been mastered to the point of maintaining it in sleep, but SSB needs very specific conditions to even transform, It's pretty natural for the form which you can even sleep in to be better at stamina usage than the one you haven't displayed such a feat with

You're right that FPSS has the stated lack of stamina drain, meaning the form can be used almost like a second base state.

We don't have such a statement for SSB. Instead, SSB seems to be a more stable form in terms of Ki control, allowing the usage of Ki-amplification techniques like the Kaio-ken without the strain that using it in conjunction with the regular FPSS form would entail.