Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
penguintruth wrote:SSJ2 Vegeta surpassing SSJ3 Goku makes as much sense as Bardock being a Super Saiyan (HE COULDN'T EVEN BEAT DODORIA FFS).
Bardock got beaten by Dodoria & was caught in the explosion of Planet Vegeta. He healed form all this in EoB, so he most likely got a huge near-death power-up like Goku did after getting beaten up by Vegeta when his body was possessed by Ginyu.
Eh heh... um, look, I know I just spent the last hour arguing in favor of Vegeta's little power boost here, but...
... even I know that Episode of Bardock is total BS, top to bottom. It was a cash grab on the part of TOEI trying to make ANOTHER Super Saiyan to market. It was cute, but it was just fluff. No one needs to rationalize that.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
penguintruth wrote:SSJ2 Vegeta surpassing SSJ3 Goku makes as much sense as Bardock being a Super Saiyan (HE COULDN'T EVEN BEAT DODORIA FFS).
Bardock got beaten by Dodoria & was caught in the explosion of Planet Vegeta. He healed form all this in EoB, so he most likely got a huge near-death power-up like Goku did after getting beaten up by Vegeta when his body was possessed by Ginyu.
Eh heh... um, look, I know I just spent the last hour arguing in favor of Vegeta's little power boost here, but...
... even I know that Episode of Bardock is total BS, top to bottom. It was a cash grab on the part of TOEI trying to make ANOTHER Super Saiyan to market. It was cute, but it was just fluff. No one needs to rationalize that.
KaiserNeko wrote:
It's not a, "Stop thinking about it and it makes sense." It's more of a, "Sometimes, stories can take a leap in logic to add drama. It's entirely possible that's what happened here." We allow some leaps in logic to slide as long as the results are satisfactory. Not to mention, we're getting caught up in the minutia of battle powers and forms when, really, that just holds back what could be a very powerful, awesome moment in the movie.
And I'm not just talking about his Galick Gun, I'm talking about his entire attack. He rushes Bills with a killer combo and ends it with the Galick Gun. During this moment combo, he was exhausting every bit of his energy. This WORKS for me. I'm okay with that.
The only thing that truly bothers me is Roshi exclaiming anything at all. He never once saw how well Goku handled Bills nor has he ever felt Goku at his best. I'll admit, that was poor writing there.
I'm just not one to let something slide so easily, contradictions seem to bug me more than most people. Furthermore, the moment we get out of it doesn't seem to be so great anyway, so I can't see it being worth it. I think it would have been easy to handle that in a non-contrdictory way AND achieve a better moment at the same time (Vegeta revealing SS3) so I can't accept it as being satisfactory.
And that's what I mean about the bad example. You only compared it to Goku using a Kamehameha at varying levels of power. Sure, a SS2 producing a ki blast that briefly surpasses a SS3's power doesn't bother me (I'd be a hypocrite if it did, I wrote the exact thing in an unpublished fan work) but I can't buy that for the combo itself. That (and everyone's comments) implies Vegeta's battle power actually surpassed Goku's, which is contradictory to what we see in the manga.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
So power-battles and in-film related chat aside, how did we feel about the voice acting?
I have to say, I felt a little let down by Nozawa's screams. Understandably, she's 76 now so you're certainly not going to get the monstrous screams of her heyday but they seemed weaker in comparison to even Kai. In terms of line delivery and nailing the humour, no complaints at all, all really impressive, had me in hysterics multiple times throughout the film.
Horikawa was great too, it was nice to see his take on a more relaxed Vegeta and his Bingo dance was just great. Battle screams were on point, I think his performance in his battle with Birus comes under my top moments from the film.
Lastly, I think Pilaf's VA was flawless. Probably my favourite funny moments from the film involved him and Mai's antics. Just great.
^^ It's not a contradiction (though it's stupid), because we never saw anyone doing what Vegeta did before. It is stated in the movie that the reason Vegeta surpassed him was because he pushed himself too much to get stronger when he got angry, which was why Vegeta's strength got drained so fast. Gohan's rage boost was something completely different.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:^^ It's not a contradiction (though it's stupid), because we never saw anyone doing what Vegeta did before. It is stated in the movie that the reason Vegeta surpassed him was because he pushed himself too much to get stronger when he got angry, which was why Vegeta's strength got drained so fast. Gohan's rage boost was something completely different.
It IS contradictory. That has never been shown to be possible before, and there's too much evidence otherwise. We've seen plenty of cases where someone has gotten anrgy, pushed themself, and seen no increase in ability.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Vegeta had a human blood transfusion so he could be a half breed. Problem solved.
I think Nozawa was alright. Horikawa was awesome though and I enjoyed him more than Nozawa.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Sure is an awful lot of pointless and nitpicky bitching in here. Yeah, Goku and Vegeta were both given more attention and credit than Gohan and Gotenks in this movie, each along with temporary means of becoming stronger. Because they're the writers' favorite characters and, quite frankly, they're better characters and deserve it. That's just how it goes.
Kaboom wrote:Sure is an awful lot of pointless and nitpicky bitching in here. Yeah, Goku and Vegeta were both given more attention and credit than Gohan and Gotenks in this movie, each along with temporary means of becoming stronger. Because they're the writers' favorite characters and, quite frankly, they're better characters and deserve it. That's just how it goes.
I could also say that there is an awful lot of pointless defending of what is a really shitty moment. And no-one even brought up Gohan and Gotenks in relation to Vegeta that I saw.
I'm re-watching Dragon Ball GT in full on my blog. Check it out if you're interested in my thoughts on the series as I watch through it!
Kaboom wrote:Sure is an awful lot of pointless and nitpicky bitching in here. Yeah, Goku and Vegeta were both given more attention and credit than Gohan and Gotenks in this movie, each along with temporary means of becoming stronger. Because they're the writers' favorite characters and, quite frankly, they're better characters and deserve it. That's just how it goes.
Well the comments on the Dream 9 special thread convinced me to put power scaling behind me so I can enjoy the film. I still have a problem with the moments mentioned. But I no longer let them get me down as much. I feel people will enjoy the film better if they put it behind them.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
AjayLikesGaming wrote: Horikawa was great too, it was nice to see his take on a more relaxed Vegeta and his Bingo dance was just great. Battle screams were on point, I think his performance in his battle with Birus comes under my top moments from the film.
If anything, I'd say his Vegeta is too rough due to years of smoking. His voice used to be so smooth...
Last edited by CashmanX on Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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olympia wrote:
21:28 why are we still talking about the emails
21:29 who gives a fuck
21:29 shut the fuck up trunks
21:29 * mean trump
Kaboom wrote:Sure is an awful lot of pointless and nitpicky bitching in here. Yeah, Goku and Vegeta were both given more attention and credit than Gohan and Gotenks in this movie, each along with temporary means of becoming stronger. Because they're the writers' favorite characters and, quite frankly, they're better characters and deserve it. That's just how it goes.
Them being better characters is subjective. To be honest. How about the fact they are MAIN characters not better characters.
Seeing as this is hardly spoilers, can anyone give me the jist of what the Elder Kai says to Kaioshin before Goku puts on his Gi?
TheGmGoken wrote:quick question. Doesn't the Son family always have the 4 star ball. How did Pilfar make a wish?
This is after Buu, seeing as the last wishes (we know of at least) were wiping Fat Buu's memory from the people of Earth. There were plenty of years to find the 4 star before this.
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TheGmGoken wrote:quick question. Doesn't the Son family always have the 4 star ball. How did Pilfar make a wish?
Nah, as far as we're shown, Goku gave up keeping it at all times after the wish was made to bring him back during the Saiyan arc. Although...he didn't really have much chance to go get it again until he had to gather the Dragon Balls during the Cell Games either. And if you wanted to take GT into consideration, he or someone else must have gotten hold of it again at some point and left it at his old home, given it's location there in the special.
The short answer though is no, they didn't always have it on hand anymore.
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I'm watching the movie in Enlgish now finally. I think the reason SSJ Vegeta seemed more poweful than SS3 Goku is this: When Goku fought Bills as SS3, Goku underestimated Bills, and asked Bills to promise not to destroy Kaio-sama's planet if he hurt him. By the time Goku became serious in the fight, Bills had a good estimation of his power, and reacted accordingly. When Vegeta fought Bills, Vegeta knew what he was up against, and went all out right away, putting all of his power and emotion into his attack, and I think this threw Bills off a bit, he wasn't expecting Vegeta to be much of a foe at all after his encounter with Goku, and that's why Vegeta was able to land a few hits on Bills.
Zeshen wrote: can anyone give me the jist of what the Elder Kai says to Kaioshin before Goku puts on his Gi?
- On the other hand, there is a god who destroys all planets and life.
- How many planets will be destroyed this time?
- Birus-sama, the God of Destruction has awoken
- Looks like we won't be at peace for a while
