"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Legion]

Even if i still believe that Zamasu is stronger than Goku (Vegetto is on another level) this chapter show again how much are different the power levels between manga and anime

[Basako]

Yeah, taking Gowasu's words literally there is a clear contradiction, because neither Black or Zamasu are Kaioshins but they both used the time rings. The alternative was that the requisite to use the time ring was to wear a Potara like official Kaioshins do. Well, whoever wants to catch a plothole here, go for it.

[GodKaio-Ken]

Yeah, taking Gowasu's words literally there is a clear contradiction, because neither Black or Zamasu are Kaioshins but they both used the time rings. The alternative was that the requisite to use the time ring was to wear a Potara like official Kaioshins do. Well, whoever wants to catch a plothole here, go for it.

Well in universe:

One could assume only Kaioshin wear Potara. Therefore you must have a potara...and to do that you must be a Kai. Probably not considering theft.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Toyotaro is a Goku fanboy.

It makes no sense Goku and Vegeta couldn't master Blue when they trained for 3 years in the ROSAT. Those 3 years of training they did amount to exactly nothing in the manga.
The fact Goku and Vegeta also have to master SSB in the manga contradicts RoF (which was completely written by Toriyama) where it's only Freezer's Golden form which suffers from massive stamina drain and not Blue (which was exactly like it's in the anime).
Toriyama also explained, in the movie, Blue as being "A Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" so it's not a completely new form as the manga makes it out, it should only have Super Saiyan's drawbacks. In the manga it feels more like a Super Saiyan 4, it's also massively stronger than SSG or else Goku and Vegeta would just stick to SSG.
Toyotaro has some good ideas but the bad ones overshadow the good ones. This time should have just brought Kaio-Ken to justify Goku being able to fight on par with Merged Zamasu. Now that would have been epic and a better occasion to bring Kaio-Ken (it would make more sense for Goku to bring it back in such a situation rather than bringing it back in a tournament like he did in the anime)

By the way is that a plot-hole the fact Black was able to use the time-ring? Gowasu says only a Kaioshin can use it, so unless Black was a Kaioshin (which he shouldn't be considering he's the same Zamasu from the main timeline which was only an apprentice) it makes no sense.

Why did not Goku and Vegeta not dominate SSB? Goku, after the fight against Freeza he spent 1 year on the planet of the Yadrats, then trained with gohan and Piccolo for 3 years for the arrival of the android, and only managed to control the SSJ when he trained 1 year in RoSaT (he only realized after using the forms Dai Ni Dankai and Dai San Dankai). Vegeta, even training hard 1 year in RoSaT, to master the weakness of the form could not totally dominate. It requires intense training and a lot of concentration to They do not seem to have focused on this in 3 year training.

[MisteryOne]

If Goku had this "mastered" all along, the only take away is that he's a piece of shit who could have ended the fight straight away. But I doubt it was planned. Got to make Goku look strong dammit

It was planned. As I said before it fits perfectly with Goku never facing Black and the Mafuba. The piece of shit is actually Vegeta.

[The gr]

The super haters are still acting like obnoxious brat that are complaining with out knowing the context, this doesn't surprise me at the slightest

this chapter is really interesting, I'm mean no one predicted this, no one

[Zephyr]

Gowasu saying only Kaioushins can use the rings contradicts the notion that Zamasu isn't one, doesn't it?

Yeah, I believe it does. Might mean that he won't defuse after all.

[MisteryOne]

This Mastered SSB is turning out worse then Rage.

Rage at least was the result of Trunks's pent up emotional turmoil, so he didn't have it all the time and could have just killed Black, and at least has Vegeta's Mutant SS2 and his own Mastered SS2 to give the form some kind of bare bones build up. MSSB is running close to the Genki Sword in terms of WTAF!

How so? Unlike the Gendikama sword this makes sense. It makes the entire arc a rehash of Boo arc, but its still logical.

[MisteryOne]

Toyotaro is a Goku fanboy.

It makes no sense Goku and Vegeta couldn't master Blue when they trained for 3 years in the ROSAT. Those 3 years of training they did amount to exactly nothing in the manga.
The fact Goku and Vegeta also have to master SSB in the manga contradicts RoF (which was completely written by Toriyama) where it's only Freezer's Golden form which suffers from massive stamina drain and not Blue (which was exactly like it's in the anime).
Toriyama also explained, in the movie, Blue as being "A Super Saiyan with the power of a Super Saiyan God" so it's not a completely new form as the manga makes it out, it should only have Super Saiyan's drawbacks. In the manga it feels more like a Super Saiyan 4, it's also massively stronger than SSG or else Goku and Vegeta would just stick to SSG.
Toyotaro has some good ideas but the bad ones overshadow the good ones. This time should have just brought Kaio-Ken to justify Goku being able to fight on par with Merged Zamasu. Now that would have been epic and a better occasion to bring Kaio-Ken (it would make more sense for Goku to bring it back in such a situation rather than bringing it back in a tournament like he did in the anime)

By the way is that a plot-hole the fact Black was able to use the time-ring? Gowasu says only a Kaioshin can use it, so unless Black was a Kaioshin (which he shouldn't be considering he's the same Zamasu from the main timeline which was only an apprentice) it makes no sense.

The problem is that SSB is already like the Kaioken trough. It would be nonsensical if Goku could use Kaioken on top of it but not on top of SS1. And this perfectef SSB thing still makes sense, but at the cost of the overall quality of the arc. I would even say «it makes too much sense».

I don't see why he's a Goku fanboy trough? Goku surpased Merged Zamasu in both versions.

[MisteryOne]

The super haters are still acting like obnoxious brat that are complaining with out knowing the context, this doesn't surprise me at the slightest

this chapter is really interesting, I'm mean no one predicted this, no one

This is the DB fandom, what do you expect? We (yeah, I think I'm also like that sometimes) are that way. Its similar to how some people critice some of the episode's preview despite not knowing the context. Remember when Krillin appeared fighting Basil? It wasn't real yet people lost their shit about it.

[Saiyan007]

Goku surpased Merged Zamasu in both versions.

Not in the anime even when he broke his arms using the KHH against Zamasu & using the kaioken he told Vegeta that they don't stand a chance against him unless they fuse,Vegeta also said that Zamasu was taking his time and toying with them and could have killed them anytime he wanted to.Anime Zamsu was in another league entirely

[Draconic]

So, I'm pretty conflicted on this chapter. On one hand, most of everything in it is pretty pointless, but for the first time in a while the art is terrific all trough out and there's some very cool fighting in it.

I am not really a fan of Trunks' new healing abilities, but it is surprising and I welcome it regardless. It is kinda cool to have him get Kaioshin skills and it's a direction not many would have taken with a post-Buu story and it is built up well across the story. That said, it's quite underwhelming.

Zamasu's portal ability is quite uninspired, but at least it's better than Katchin blocks. But, it does lend itself to a great fight and the result of it is entertaining, so I am fine with this as well.

Goku mastering SSB is interesting, but it all just seems like damage control after the shitty way the form was handled last arc. It kinda begs the question, how the hell did they defeat Freeza if both Goku and Vegeta had the same problem as their opponent and this arc they can barely bring themselves to use it.

On the other hand the fighting is awesome! The best it's ever been in the manga for me. Zamasu beating on Vegeta, while not as brutal as Black beating on Trunks, feels better some way. But the best beatdown is that of base Goku. All the portal shenanigans are so damn cool. And Blue Goku vs Zamasu is incredibly drawn. Unlike most other fights, I can't fight a single panel that distracted me from the story.

It is quite a padding chapter. Most of it could be easily condensed and have the story move along a bit more, especially with some teases of great stuff coming next chapter. But damn if it's not fun padding and if it lends itself for a next chapter as amazing as the last one, get me signed up.

The arc started quite slow and didn't really do it for me, but since the second trip to the future, it's picked up and is slowly but surely knocking it out of the park.

[Zamasu55]

The manga's the most overrated thing ever. God, they're managing to make this arc ending even worst than it was in the anime.
And of course no one's going to complain about SsjB Goku surpassing Merged Zamasu out of nowhere, nor the Trunks bullshit.
Ahhh had it happened in the anime...

[TheSaiyanGod]

This Mastered SSB is turning out worse then Rage.

Rage at least was the result of Trunks's pent up emotional turmoil, so he didn't have it all the time and could have just killed Black, and at least has Vegeta's Mutant SS2 and his own Mastered SS2 to give the form some kind of bare bones build up. MSSB is running close to the Genki Sword in terms of WTAF!

How so? Unlike the Gendikama sword this makes sense. It makes the entire arc a rehash of Boo arc, but its still logical.

True. The great power of Goku can be forced yes, but incoherently not. The concept of controlling the SSB perfectly, without letting Ki overflow to use the maximum potential form makes sense and is a very interesting exploration of the form.Inclusive I think they introduced too early the Kaioken in the anime, and maybe should not have even introduced that

[ShinTenshin]

So Goku SSBLUE mastered is clearly burning.
He have some smoke around him !
Do you think it's related to opening 2 and Ending 8 where Goku normal is somewhat burning, you can see some "smoke" with Goku shining !

[zamasu121]

The manga's the most overrated thing ever. God, they're managing to make this arc ending even worst than it was in the anime.
And of course no one's going to complain about SsjB Goku surpassing Merged Zamasu out of nowhere, nor the Trunks bullshit.
Ahhh had it happened in the anime...

If it happened in the anime you would have seen 3-5 threads bashing the anime.

[Abra kadabra]

Trunks having healing powers is fine, great actually because he was a kaioshin apprentice and the way they forshadowed it was clever. Goku just going "oh you didn't know? mastered it guyz" and going 1on1 with Merged Zamasu is just atrocious and contradictory. Seeing Goku fanboys jump through hoops to justify it isn't surprising. It is the Goku show after all

[Lord Beerus]

Gowasu saying only Kaioushins can use the rings contradicts the notion that Zamasu isn't one, doesn't it?

So Zamasu is a Kaioshin. Well... that's a plot hole given what was stated in Chapter 23. Merged Zamasu may not defuse after all.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Goku mastering SSB is interesting, but it all just seems like damage control after the shitty way the form was handled last arc. It kinda begs the question, how the hell did they defeat Freeza if both Goku and Vegeta had the same problem as their opponent and this arc they can barely bring themselves to use it.

In fact, this is relative. As quoted by Vegeta in this chapter, the main problem of SSB is its power reduction after activating it more than once. But, because energy expenditure to maintain the transformation does not seem so great. I would show that the Golden Freeza spends much more energy to maintain than the SSB. We also do not know how long this fight would last in the manga to be sure

[Lord Beerus]

This chapter tears me apart.

On one hand, the fight choreography was on point and Merged Zamasu's portal abilities and his use of them were fantastic, but fucking hell, the power scaling is officially broken in the manga. And while I like that the took the approach of the anime with mastering SSJB through ki control, I just wish there was some kind of indication as to when Goku was able to do this. Because I can't help but feel that it was a major asspull for Goku to now suddenly master the form, and in the process, compete evenly with Merged Zamasu. Plus, it really undercuts the tension of previous events in the Future Trunks if Goku knew he could do this but chose not to. It really seems insanely contrived and stupid.

I do think that Future Trunks healing abilities are neat and fit in well with his training with Kaioshin and the foreshadowing to it was nice. But it also felt like an ability that was just arbitrarily discovered given the extremely fumbled execution of Future Trunks discovering he could heal people. And it's sad we got an outright plothole in regards to Goku Black and Zamasu being able to use Time Rings, when they shouldn't be able to.

All in all, this is a very conflicting chapter for me to take into consideration. I wanna like it a lot. I really do. But I... just can't. It shares the same problems with the anime with it's power scaling, contradictory strength and sudden new abilities with little to no foreshadowing. But it's really all down to what's in the plot outline from Toriyama and how Toyotaro could have spinned this into something entertaining, coherent and consistent. And this chapter unfortunately only achieved the "entertainment" part.