Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

It is an extrapolation by all means and accounts, since you can't automatically assume that in the context of the ROF movie "going Super Saiyan" meant "going gold or going Blue". That's what you are trying to prove, and there's quite simply not enough conclusive evidence.
Freeza said that Goku needed to turn Super Saiyan and we know he referred to the original golden form. Goku says that he doesn't need that to. Obviously, it could have meant "I don't need to because if I try to go Super Saiyan I'd go Super Saiyan Blue and utterly annihilate you".

Alas, if Freeza had actually said "use your gold Super Saiyan form" (which he'd never say, since it would presume he knew about multiple types of Super Saiyan forms) and Goku said "I don't need to use my gold Super Saiyan form" you'd obviously have a stronger argument, but you'd also be removing the ambiguous phrasing in the first place - which is "go Super Saiyan".
Furthermore, the blurb in question states that if a Saiyan with a godly-empowered form turns Super Saiyan they go "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" and it's, technically speaking, much stronger evidence in favor of what you're arguing against.

No, Freeza specifically said to use the Super Saiyan glow that he hates. That is gold and Goku said that he didn't need to go that far, hence there are no inferences on my side. You're arguing that Freeza and Goku's conversation doesn't mean what it means, which makes no sense.

>Glow that Freeza hates=Gold.
>Goku said that he doesn't need to go that far.

The blurb doesn't specifically state that gold Super Saiyan is impossible to use, so it doesn't mean anything. It's just reiterating what was already said in the movie and despite that, Goku still stated that he could go gold.
We already have feats of Goku using gold Super Saiyan against Beerus despite possessing Super Saiyan God's power, so I don't know where he idea comes from that it's lost forever. If he could use it against Beerus, then he can still use it now.

I'll reiterate what's been said above:

"If a godly-empowered Saiyan goes Super Saiyan he goes Blue". If the statement is truthful, it means in order that only non-godly-empowered Saiyans can go Super Saiyan. So either Goku can be godly-empowered and not godly-empowered or he can't go Super Saiyan at all.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

It's unambiguous and taken very literally doesn't leave any room for objections. You would be better off saying it applied only to those forms in the movie and not to current material. Ironically, unless you claim that the booklet is wrong, saying that it's correct and then claiming something like "Goku can go Super Saiyan" is the same as advocating for the fact that two bases exist.

Regarding Goku and Freeza's conversation, I still don't understand what your point is supposed to be. Let's concede Freeza hates "the glow of Super Saiyans". "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" is a Super Saiyan form, which theoretically might also possess "the glow of a Super Saiyan" that Freeza hates. You're the one not making sense in that you are arguing that Goku couldn't mentally picture his Super Saiyan Blue as being an analogous of the "Super Saiyan" Freeza hates. Your assertions are dangling on what "going Super Saiyan" means in the context of the movie, which the added material purposely clarifies as "going Super Saiyan for Goku = going Super Saiyan for someone with the power of a god = going Super Saiyan Blue", enough per se to completely invalidate your elaborated train of thought already.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

You would be better off saying it applied only to those forms in the movie and not to current material. Ironically, unless you claim that the booklet is wrong, saying that it's correct and then claiming something like "Goku can go Super Saiyan" is the same as advocating for the fact that two bases exist.

Regarding Goku and Freeza's conversation, I still don't understand what your point is supposed to be. Let's concede Freeza hates "the glow of Super Saiyans". "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" is a Super Saiyan form, which theoretically might also possess "the glow of a Super Saiyan" that Freeza hates. You're the one not making sense in that you are arguing that Goku couldn't mentally picture his Super Saiyan Blue as being an analogous of the "Super Saiyan" Freeza hates. Your assertions are dangling on what "going Super Saiyan" means in the context of the movie, which the added material purposely clarifies as "going Super Saiyan for Goku = going Super Saiyan for someone with the power of a god = going Super Saiyan Blue", enough per se to completely invalidate your elaborated train of thought already.

No it doesn't, you're deflecting from what was actually said and twisting it. The Super Saiyan glow that Freeza hates is gold. Goku responded to what Freeza had in mind, not some power that Freeza isn't talking about. The blurb just reiterates what the show said and it doesn't state that Goku can't go gold, so it's irrelevant and Goku already said that he could. Goku used the regular Super Saiyan against Beerus, so he can use it despite having god power in his base, making your assertions moot.

[LowRyder2005]

You would be better off saying it applied only to those forms in the movie and not to current material. Ironically, unless you claim that the booklet is wrong, saying that it's correct and then claiming something like "Goku can go Super Saiyan" is the same as advocating for the fact that two bases exist.

Regarding Goku and Freeza's conversation, I still don't understand what your point is supposed to be. Let's concede Freeza hates "the glow of Super Saiyans". "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" is a Super Saiyan form, which theoretically might also possess "the glow of a Super Saiyan" that Freeza hates. You're the one not making sense in that you are arguing that Goku couldn't mentally picture his Super Saiyan Blue as being an analogous of the "Super Saiyan" Freeza hates. Your assertions are dangling on what "going Super Saiyan" means in the context of the movie, which the added material purposely clarifies as "going Super Saiyan for Goku = going Super Saiyan for someone with the power of a god = going Super Saiyan Blue", enough per se to completely invalidate your elaborated train of thought already.

No it doesn't, you're deflecting from what was actually said and twisting it. The Super Saiyan glow that Freeza hates is gold. Goku responded to what Freeza had in mind, not some power that Freeza isn't talking about. The blurb just reiterates what the show said and it doesn't state that Goku can't go gold, so it's irrelevant and Goku already said that he could. Goku used the regular Super Saiyan against Beerus, so he can use it despite having god power in his base, making your assertions moot.

The blurb states that "if a godly-empowered Saiyan turns Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is born" and it was meant to clarify aspects of the Revival of F movie. Nothing else. It's a basic syllogism and is as clear as it gets.

Hence why your entire point about what Freeza and Goku might mean or the capability to go Super Saiyan after the fight with Beerus on your own premises is irrelevant; you're being closed-minded for some inherently ambiguous exchange and being illogical for a 100% unambiguous statement.

[Marlowe89]

No it doesn't, you're deflecting from what was actually said and twisting it.

Actually, that's precisely what you're doing. "[Channeling] that glow I hate so much" simply refers to the act of transforming into Super Saiyan; for Goku, this would exclusively have to mean triggering SSB since "going Super Saiyan" results specifically in Super Saiyan Blue according to both the show and the advertising materials for the RoF film.

It's ironic that you came into this thread throwing around accusations of people not using common sense and appealing to confirmation bias even though in truth your posts have exemplified those fallacies more than anyone else participating in this discussion.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

You would be better off saying it applied only to those forms in the movie and not to current material. Ironically, unless you claim that the booklet is wrong, saying that it's correct and then claiming something like "Goku can go Super Saiyan" is the same as advocating for the fact that two bases exist.

Regarding Goku and Freeza's conversation, I still don't understand what your point is supposed to be. Let's concede Freeza hates "the glow of Super Saiyans". "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" is a Super Saiyan form, which theoretically might also possess "the glow of a Super Saiyan" that Freeza hates. You're the one not making sense in that you are arguing that Goku couldn't mentally picture his Super Saiyan Blue as being an analogous of the "Super Saiyan" Freeza hates. Your assertions are dangling on what "going Super Saiyan" means in the context of the movie, which the added material purposely clarifies as "going Super Saiyan for Goku = going Super Saiyan for someone with the power of a god = going Super Saiyan Blue", enough per se to completely invalidate your elaborated train of thought already.

No it doesn't, you're deflecting from what was actually said and twisting it. The Super Saiyan glow that Freeza hates is gold. Goku responded to what Freeza had in mind, not some power that Freeza isn't talking about. The blurb just reiterates what the show said and it doesn't state that Goku can't go gold, so it's irrelevant and Goku already said that he could. Goku used the regular Super Saiyan against Beerus, so he can use it despite having god power in his base, making your assertions moot.

The blurb states that "if a godly-empowered Saiyan turn Super Saiyan, they turn Blue" and it was meant to clarify aspects of the Revival of F movie. Nothing else. It's a basic syllogism and is as clear as it gets.
Hence why your entire point about what Freeza and Goku might mean or the capability to go Super Saiyan after the fight with Beerus on your own premises is irrelevant; you're being closed-minded for some inherently ambiguous exchange and being illogical for a 100% unambiguous statement.

Freeza and Goku's exchange isn't ambiguous, but you're allowed to keep pretending that it is.

The blurb doesn't say that the original Super Saiyan can't be accessed. The blurb being for the movie is irrelevant. Goku was godly powered in BOG, yet turned into a basic Super Saiyan, so once again, the original Super Saiyan can be accessed.

[TheSaiyanGod]

This was actually said in there? That pretty much seals the deal on Saiyan beyond God.

And an in-universe example of the two base theory. It would imply they can flip it on and off without a visual indicator.

I have never heard of this. Ever.
TheSaiyanGod, I would like to see the source please

This implies that there really is a '' Beyond God '' form, but as it only appeared in DBH, I do not know if we should consider

[spoiler][/spoiler]
_______

The emphasis given to the phrase '' Saiyans can control divine power without changing form '' is because this is unusual, even among Saiyans?
I mean, theoretically the divine Ki could only be used in the divine transformations (like the Super Saiyan God), but after training with Whis, Goku and Vegeta are able to control this Ki without becoming? So they get the SSGSS, which is the SSG and SSJ junction

[The gr]

Just a question,I think the manga uses the two Base theory because explain this, goku black base is comparable to a super saiyan 3, multiplied by that by 100x he's pretty strong yet vegeta ss2 owns him,I want an explanation for this

[LowRyder2005]

No it doesn't, you're deflecting from what was actually said and twisting it. The Super Saiyan glow that Freeza hates is gold. Goku responded to what Freeza had in mind, not some power that Freeza isn't talking about. The blurb just reiterates what the show said and it doesn't state that Goku can't go gold, so it's irrelevant and Goku already said that he could. Goku used the regular Super Saiyan against Beerus, so he can use it despite having god power in his base, making your assertions moot.

The blurb states that "if a godly-empowered Saiyan turn Super Saiyan, they turn Blue" and it was meant to clarify aspects of the Revival of F movie. Nothing else. It's a basic syllogism and is as clear as it gets.
Hence why your entire point about what Freeza and Goku might mean or the capability to go Super Saiyan after the fight with Beerus on your own premises is irrelevant; you're being closed-minded for some inherently ambiguous exchange and being illogical for a 100% unambiguous statement.

Freeza and Goku's exchange isn't ambiguous, but you're allowed to keep pretending that it is.

The blurb doesn't say that the original Super Saiyan can't be accessed. The blurb being for the movie is irrelevant. Goku was godly powered in BOG, yet turned into a basic Super Saiyan, so once again, the original Super Saiyan can be accessed.

That's what you are not apparently grasping: the blurb does say that for god-like Saiyans if we're to take it as truthful. I don't really get what's so hard about it.

1. If a godly-empowered Saiyan turns Super Saiyan, this act gives birth to the power a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. That's, word-per-word, the translation of the article.
2. Goku is a godly-empowered Saiyan.
3. If Goku turns Super Saiyan, this act will give birth to the power of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

You're arguing that if Goku turns Super Saiyan he might/ will not give birth to a Super Saiyan God every time. You're basically contradicting either point 1 (the article) or point 2 (Goku being godly-empowered).
Again, that one caveat about Goku going Super Saiyan in ROF is probably claiming that Goku can be godly-empowered at one moment and NOT godly-empowered at one second moment, which is again, an ultimately ironical conclusion, since you'd be a subscriber of the two-base theory... for the movie, nevertheless.

Regarding Freeza's exchange, I guess I'll just reply with "keep seeing it is unambiguous" if you really want. It's not like I particularly care about making you change your mind. I do think it pretty absurd that you can't see how much less ambiguous the article is, regardless. As a supposed counter to what the article states, coming up with Goku's and Freeza's words is an extremely weak objection for a plethora of reasons.

[Marlowe89]

Just a question,I think the manga uses the two Base theory because explain this, goku black base is comparable to a super saiyan 3, multiplied by that by 100x he's pretty strong yet vegeta ss2 owns him,I want an explanation for this

Vegeta's overwhelming advantage against Black in Super Saiyan 2 is likely a result of Vegeta's training as opposed to any advocacy of the two base interpretation by the manga. The power-scaling in that chapter was a bit messy for sure, but for all intents and purposes I think Goku and Vegeta's usage of God-like power in the manga is embodied by their transformation into Super Saiyan God. For the movies and anime, it's simply the act of manifesting that residual God-like power Whis trained them to utilize in base.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

That's what you are not apparently grasping: the blurb does say for god-like Saiyans that if we're to take it as truthful. I don't really get what's so hard about it.

1. If a godly-empowered Saiyan turns Super Saiyan, this act gives birth to the power a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. That's, word-per-word, the translation of the article.
2. Goku is a godly-empowered Saiyan.
3. If Goku turns Super Saiyan, this act will give birth to the power of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

You're arguing that if Goku turns Super Saiyan he might/ will not give birth to a Super Saiyan God every time. You're basically contradicting either point 1 (the article) or point 2 (Goku being godly-empowered).
Again, that one caveat about Goku going Super Saiyan in ROF is probably claiming that Goku can be godly-empowered at one moment and NOT godly-empowered at one second moment, which is again, an ultimately ironical conclusion, since you'd be a subscriber of the two-base theory... for the movie, nevertheless.

Regarding Freeza's exchange, I guess I'll just reply with keep seeing it is "unambiguous", it's not like I particularly care about making you change your mind; I think it's still pretty absurd that you can't see how much less ambiguous the article is, regardless. As a supposed counter to what the article states, coming up with Goku's and Freeza's words is an extremely weak objection for a plethora of reasons.

He will transform into SSB every single time if he wants to. Saying that it's still possible for Goku to become a regular Super Saiyan if he wants to doesn't contradict the article. That's what's shown in BOG and all of Super. All of that in conjunction with Goku and Freeza's dialogue makes it clear cut. The article isn't saying anything not said in ROF.

There are more aspects to being able to use SSB like mastering control of your ki to not let it leak. As shown in BOG, a godly empowered Saiyan can still use the original Super Saiyan state.

[LowRyder2005]

That's what you are not apparently grasping: the blurb does say for god-like Saiyans that if we're to take it as truthful. I don't really get what's so hard about it.

1. If a godly-empowered Saiyan turns Super Saiyan, this act gives birth to the power a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. That's, word-per-word, the translation of the article.
2. Goku is a godly-empowered Saiyan.
3. If Goku turns Super Saiyan, this act will give birth to the power of a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

You're arguing that if Goku turns Super Saiyan he might/ will not give birth to a Super Saiyan God every time. You're basically contradicting either point 1 (the article) or point 2 (Goku being godly-empowered).
Again, that one caveat about Goku going Super Saiyan in ROF is probably claiming that Goku can be godly-empowered at one moment and NOT godly-empowered at one second moment, which is again, an ultimately ironical conclusion, since you'd be a subscriber of the two-base theory... for the movie, nevertheless.

Regarding Freeza's exchange, I guess I'll just reply with keep seeing it is "unambiguous", it's not like I particularly care about making you change your mind; I think it's still pretty absurd that you can't see how much less ambiguous the article is, regardless. As a supposed counter to what the article states, coming up with Goku's and Freeza's words is an extremely weak objection for a plethora of reasons.

He will transform into SSB every single time if he wants to. Saying that it's still possible for Goku to become a regular Super Saiyan if he wants to doesn't contradict the article. That's what's shown in BOG and all of Super. All of that in conjunction with Goku and Freeza's dialogue makes it clear cut. The article isn't saying anything not said in ROF.

There are more aspects to being able to use SSB like mastering control of your ki to not let it leak. As shown in BOG, a godly empowered Saiyan can still use the original Super Saiyan state.

I'm sorry, but no. You would be contradicting it, period. The article says "when a godly-powered Saiyan turns Super Saiyan, the Saiyan will turn Blue". You're arguing that "some times if they turn Super Saiyan they won't turn Blue". Refer to this matrix. The article is in point A, you're in point O.



This is the same as reading "when you are in the city, the speed limit is 50 mph" and claiming that it applies only to some specific circumstances inside the city. Both the article and the prescription in the example above when stated in that way are meant to be taken as the general rule, not a single particular case. The article doesn't mention "possibilities", or the fact that Saiyans "can (also) turn Super Saiyan Blue". It's a cause and effect scenario. If "a godly-empowered Saiyan can avoid that" was meant to be added and it was not reported, then it's the same as arguing as the article was wrong or incomplete. You're very much free to do that.

Battle of Gods is also unrelated to proving your point: as far as we know, Goku's ability to go Super Saiyan may have been limited to his last fight against Beerus. It's yet again another logical jump.

[ChiefWamsutta]

You could maybe even extend that to Black aswell and that he turned Rose instead of Blonde.

That does almost explain why we don't see Black using the regular Super Saiyan form in the anime. Instead of using a Godly-powered base, Goku simply transforms into Super Saiyan God itself in the manga - so it makes sense that Black would become a golden Super Saiyan when he transforms in that continuity whereas in the anime he simply becomes Super Saiyan Rose as it's already presumably the Super Saiyan progression of a Godly-powered base. To achieve Rose in the manga, Black just powers up his Super Saiyan state to go beyond God as Zamasu implies.

It doesn't neatly solve everything since Black also had a super strong base in the manga, but it's very interesting to think about nonetheless.

Hey, Marlowe89 and Bullza, I was just curious on your thoughts of my interpretation per the recent Two-Base Theory evidence.

So after acquiring confirmation about the Two-Base Theory here is my idea how to link everything together:

Goku during DBZ had Base, SS1, SS2, SS3.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Then he and the other Earth Saiyans did the ritual and he became Super Saiyan God.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

During his fight with Beerus he turns back into a Super Saiyan, but is still just as strong. Beerus explains that the power merged with Goku. I would modify this and say that Beerus is slightly wrong ... the power only partially merged with his being. This is why we only see the God-like Super Saiyan once. ... The power wasn't done merging.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku fights Beerus one last time and their attacks create a sun ball that is heading towards Earth. In order to stop it Goku needs more power. During his fight, he turns from a Super Saiyan into Base form. Surprisingly, this change to a weaker form gives him enough power to defeat the sun ball. That's because the SSGod power fully merged with him in that moment. He now only has a powerful Base.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku meets up with Whis and Vegeta (who accessed the red-haired god form on his own. Vegeta then had the power partially merge into his Super Saiyan form and then fully merge into his Base form like Goku). In order to gain more power and control, Whis teaches them to not let their ki leak out. They go into the Staff Dimension and achieve SSBlue. Now the two of them have Merged SSGod Base and SSBlue when they fight Frieza.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

After defeating Frieza, Goku and Vegeta learn of the other universes. They are recruited to be part of the U7 team. In order to prepare for this, they train in the RoSaT. During this time, Goku and Vegeta master ki control to an even greater level, allowing them to access mortal forms such as Base, SS1, SS2, SS3 in addition to New SSG and SSBlue.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

After the tournament they retain all of these forms. It can be said that Goku fought Botamo, Frost, #17, Krillin, and Bergamo in Base form. He fought Beerus' Sun Ball, Hit, RoF Final Form Frieza, Copy-Vegeta, Monaka-Beerus, Slim Buu in black-haired SSG form. We can make this conclusion because Goku turns into SS1 against Krillin, #17, Frost and Bergamo, which means he wasn't using God-like power. He turned SSBlue against Hit, RoF Frieza, and Copy-Vegeta, so he was using New SSG. Monaka-Beerus and Slim Buu make sense to be New SSG since both of those characters are strong and he could not handle them in Base alone.

Goku Black must have been using New SSG but didn't have full access to it. I believe it was stated in the show that he gained more of Goku's power the longer he fought.

When Vegito appeared in the Future Trunks arc, he must have used New SSG just before he turned SSBlue. Copy-Vegeta must also have been fighting in New SSG, as Base could not beat SS3 Gotenks.

I think this solves everything, basically.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I'm sorry, but no. You would be contradicting it, period. The article says "when a godly-powered Saiyan turns Super Saiyan, the Saiyan will turn Blue". You're arguing that "some times if they turn Super Saiyan they won't turn Blue". Refer to this matrix. The article is in point A, you're in point O.



This is the same as reading "when you are in the city, the speed limit is 50 mph" and claiming that it applies only to some specific circumstances. Both the article and the prescription in the example above when stated in that way are meant to be taken as the general rule, not a single particular case. If "a godly-empowered Saiyan can avoid that" was meant to be added and it was not reported, then it's the same as arguing as the article was wrong or incomplete. You're very much free to do that.

Battle of Gods is also unrelated to proving your point: as far as we know, Goku's ability to go Super Saiyan may have been limited to his last fight against Beerus. It's yet again another logical jump.

No clue why you're showing me that nonsense to try to make yourself look smarter than you actually are. Doesn't do anything to help your point. The Saiyan can make that happen every single time if they want to and as I said before, there are more requirements that are shown for SSB to manifest. Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God turning Super Saiyan. So was the regular Super Saiyan state that he showed in BOG.

The bold is the most ridiculous notion that you've asserted. No it's not unrelated just because you want it to be. What's shown is that Goku turned into a Super Saiyan while being godly powered, therefore the original Super Saiyan state is still accessible. Period. That's not a logical jump. That's referencing an event. What are you even talking about with it being limited to his last fight with Beerus? He has turned Super Saiyan all throughout Super. Where are you getting this from? More drivel from your end just like every time you've responded to me, yet you keep going on and on about how I'm making "logical jumps".

[LowRyder2005]

The bold is the most ridiculous notion that you've asserted. No it's not unrelated just because you want it to be. What's shown is that Goku turned into a Super Saiyan while being godly powered, therefore the original Super Saiyan state is still accessible. Period. That's not a logical jump. That's referencing an event. What are you even talking about with it being limited to his last fight with Beerus? He has turned Super Saiyan all throughout Super. Where are you getting this from? More drivel from your end just like every time you've responded to me, yet you keep going on and on about how I'm making "logical jumps".

Yes, it was a leap in logic, and this is yet another one. We were talking about what was supposed to be the state of affairs at the time of the movies. The movies' canon is not supposed to perfectly adhere to what was later established in Dragon Ball Super's own narrative, for better or worse. While they're similar, the fact that they're different in many, many ways, and that they did many things differently in many, many ways is self-explanatory. You're trying to use Super retroactively to justify something from a different continuity.

Secondly, stuff like:

The Saiyan can make that happen every single time if they want to and as I said before, there are more requirements that are shown for SSB to manifest. Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God turning Super Saiyan. So was the regular Super Saiyan state that he showed in BOG.

Directly contradicts the article. This has been mentioned countless times by now, and it's just you refusing to accept the article's own premises.

Regarding BOG, you're quite literally putting down other scenarios aprioristically just because they don't fit your very personal set of preconceptions. BOG happens before and not after Goku was able to turn Super Saiyan Blue. Had Goku shown the ability to turn into both in ROF or, say, later, then you'd probably have a point (alas, wouldn't be conjecturing and trying to pass off your conjectures as facts like you are now). Do note that you'd still end up claiming that the article was wrong, though, because of the article's own assertion that "going Super Saiyan with the power of a god will give birth to a Super Saiyan Blue". Implementing graphs when trying to send across the meaning of "contradicting" will surely not make my post much smarter, but I reckon getting flustered over it and being unable to compute a valid answer will presumably be worse.

By the way, it is also pretty telling that you started throwing around bias accusations the moment you got in this thread again, made something up in the spur of the moment trying to spoonfeed everyone else your own theories on some theoretical intended meaning, and then resorted in the end to throw random factoids, argumenti ad lapidem or petty jabs the moment your contradictions were brought under light. Almost a natural progression.

[Marlowe89]

Hey, Marlowe89 and Bullza, I was just curious on your thoughts of my interpretation per the recent Two-Base Theory evidence.

Honestly, I don't think it's any more complicated than them having the option to use Godly power. If they manifest it in base and then go Super Saiyan or if they manifest it while already in Super Saiyan, they become Super Saiyan Blue. If they don't, they simply transform into the regular yellow Super Saiyan variants.

Although the "recent evidence" provides further support for this idea, this is really something that has been implied on numerous occasions since RoF.

The Saiyan can make that happen every single time if they want to

They don't make that happen every single time because they "want to", they do it because that's what the form IS. Super Saiyan Blue was explicitly clarified to be the direct result of a Saiyan with that power turning into Super Saiyan. Just like with Gohan and "original strength", you seem to be wholly incapable of grasping the linguistic meaning of a simple, unambiguous statement because you know it blatantly conflicts with whatever preconceived notions you had that are now rendered invalid.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

The bold is the most ridiculous notion that you've asserted. No it's not unrelated just because you want it to be. What's shown is that Goku turned into a Super Saiyan while being godly powered, therefore the original Super Saiyan state is still accessible. Period. That's not a logical jump. That's referencing an event. What are you even talking about with it being limited to his last fight with Beerus? He has turned Super Saiyan all throughout Super. Where are you getting this from? More drivel from your end just like every time you've responded to me, yet you keep going on and on about how I'm making "logical jumps".

Yes, it was a leap in logic, and this is yet another one. We were talking about what was supposed to be the state of affairs at the time of the movies. The movies' canon is not supposed to perfectly adhere to what was later established in Dragon Ball Super's own narrative, for better or worse. While they're similar, the fact that they're different in many, many ways, and that they did many things differently in many, many ways is self-explanatory. You're trying to use Super retroactively to justify something from a different continuity.

Secondly, stuff like:

The Saiyan can make that happen every single time if they want to and as I said before, there are more requirements that are shown for SSB to manifest. Super Saiyan Blue is a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God turning Super Saiyan. So was the regular Super Saiyan state that he showed in BOG.

Directly contradicts the article. This has been mentioned countless times by now, and it's just you refusing to accept the article's own premises.

Regarding BOG, you're quite literally putting down other scenarios aprioristically just because they don't fit your very personal set of preconceptions. BOG happens before and not after Goku was able to turn Super Saiyan Blue. Had Goku shown the ability to turn into both in ROF or, say, later, then you'd probably have a point (alas, wouldn't be conjecturing and trying to pass off your conjectures as facts like you are now). Do note that you'd still end up claiming that the article was wrong, though, because of the article's own assertion that "going Super Saiyan with the power of a god will give birth to a Super Saiyan Blue". Implementing graphs when trying to send across the meaning of "contradicting" will surely not make my post much smarter, but I reckon getting flustered over it and being unable to compute a valid answer will presumably be worse.

By the way, it is also pretty telling that you started throwing around bias accusations the moment you got in this thread again, made something up in the spur of the moment trying to spoonfeed everyone else your own theories on some theoretical intended meaning, and then resorted in the end to throw random factoids, argumenti ad lapidem or petty jabs the moment your contradictions were brought under light. Almost a natural progression.

Goku used the regular Super Saiyan therefore regular Super Saiyan is still accessible while possessing God's power. Was that shown in the movie? Yes. Is claiming that Goku can do something that he was shown to do a leap in logic? No, so that's more idiocy on your end.

No, Goku not being able to become SSB during BOG isn't relevant. He had God's power. He still became a basic Super Saiyan. That's all that matters. You don't get make up irrelevant conditions that my argument doesn't even have to logically fulfill.

Your arguments are comparable to me claiming that Freeza destroying the Earth a second time in ROF if Goku didn't kill him is a leap in logic because we don't know if the spaghetti monster would've appeared to finish him off. Stupidity.

The article doesn't state that the regular Super Saiyan is inaccessible. That in conjunction with Goku stating that he could use the gold Super Saiyan in ROF makes it clear cut. Super Saiyan Blue=Super Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, though that doesn't mean that the original Super Saiyan disappears. This is shown in BOG and Super.

You can't cherrypick your evidence. You have to reconcile the fact that Goku can still use the basic Super Saiyan with God's power with the blurb. My explanation is fine. They have one base form as shown in the show. They aren't stated to have 2 anywhere. That part is what people are making up.

Super and the movies were never differentiated in the way you're suggesting. Goku goes Super Saiyan in Super. He goes Super Saiyan in the BOG movie, therefore he can still use basic Super Saiyan as a Saiyan Beyond God.

[TheMikado]

Now that we have evidence and confirmation, I don't individual opinions really matter anymore.

[LowRyder2005]

Goku used the regular Super Saiyan therefore regular Super Saiyan is still accessible while possessing God's power. Was that shown in the movie? Yes. Is claiming that Goku can do something that he was shown to do a leap in logic? No, so that's more idiocy on your end.

I may simple argue that there's the simple possibility Goku's original Super Saiyan forms were "overwritten" by his Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan the moment he made that ki entirely his own. Again, while it'd be a claim of my own, when you claim they can go Super Saiyan you would still be the one contradicting the article and not me. The article is crystal clear in establishing what happens after a "godly-empowered" Saiyan tries to go Super Saiyan. They are supposed to go Blue, not "Super Saiyan".

No, Goku not being able to become SSB during BOG isn't relevant. He had God's power. He still became a basic Super Saiyan. That's all that matters. You don't get make up irrelevant conditions that my argument doesn't even have to logically fulfill.

The crucial difference between you and me is that I'm basing my "conditions" on the article's statements, while you are the one purposefully going against it. You're simply adding preconditions here and there, starting from BOG to Freeza's own words, to acting as if Super and BOG are supposed to complement each other perfectly - they don't - and then claiming you are not interposing. You've stopped thinking critically or giving answers that are not a product of mere discord since two or three posts.

The article doesn't state that the regular Super Saiyan is inaccessible.

Here's the thing. Logically speaking? Yes! It does, regardless of how many times you try to pig-headedly argue the contrary. While the article will not say something awkwardly worded like "they cannot go Super Saiyan anymore", it's a logical consequence akin to "there are three apples; the apples are either red or yellow; two apples are red" -> "it's been said the third apple is yellow". "Goku is a god-like base Saiyan; if god-like base Saiyans turn Super Saiyan they turn Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan; Goku will turn into a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan if he turns Super Saiyan". The logical equivalent of the last phrase is "Goku will not not turn into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan if he turns Super Saiyan".

You can't cherrypick your evidence.

Which is a most ironic statement at this point, since that's precisely what you've been doing since the very start. You're applying convenient meanings here and there when it's suitable to your original thesis, and refusing to acknowledge everything else because "it's ridiculous". It's not my fault if you can't maturely accept that you've been thoroughly proven wrong. You'd do well to take issue with the article which goes against your beliefs, not with me.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Now that we have evidence and confirmation, I don't individual opinions really matter anymore.

I'm still not seeing how this evidence even applies anymore, since Super has long gone past the point of no return on this. They explained how SSB works in-series, and this "evidence" came out LONG BEFORE.

Just like how we don't assume that Beerus used 70% of his power against SSG Goku,Tagoma died, or Piccolo lived to see Golden Freeza with his own eyes, so to do I believe we shouldn't assume this statement to be absolute within the anime adaptation. Elements of it? Sure, because they work off the same basic story outline. But the commonalities are what we need to verify, stuff that's explicit in both versions' ancillary and primary material.

[A SS with the power of SSG that surpasses even SSG, made possible with precise control of one's Ki.]

These are the common elements. The idea of controlling godly power within the base form isn't found in the anime, just that Goku and Vegeta have this power, its their own power, not letting their Ki leak out is instrumental to using this power, and they turn SS using this power to create the SSB form.

There aren't any contextual/dialogue cues in the "evidence" or the anime indicating that the power of SSG that Goku and Vegeta have as their own power is equal to SSG's level, and no such cues in the anime indicate that they can selectively turn this power on/off.

What we DO have is contextual cues about how SSB works in the anime, noted several times where Goku and Vegeta are in the process of turning into or have already turned into Super Saiyans, then transform their SS forms into the godly version. It is these instances that are specifically drawn attention to. Every other instance, they simply transform into SSB like any other regular form, such as SS2 and SS3, which are forms that can be powered up into from SS or just done from the base state.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I may simple argue that there's the simple possibility Goku's original Super Saiyan forms were "overwritten" by his Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan the moment he made that ki entirely his own. Again, while it'd be a claim of my own, when you claim they can go Super Saiyan you would still be the one contradicting the article and not me. The article is crystal clear in establishing what happens after a "godly-empowered" Saiyan tries to go Super Saiyan. They are supposed to go Blue, not "Super Saiyan".

The crucial difference between you and me is that I'm basing my "conditions" on the article's statements, while you are the one purposefully going against it. You're simply adding preconditions here and there, starting from BOG to Freeza's own words, and claiming you are not interposing. You've stopped thinking critically or producing answers that are not a product of mere discord since two or three posts.

The article states is that Saiyans with the power of Super Saiyan God awaken the power of Super Saiyan Blue when they become Super Saiyan. I'm not contradicting anything. Did Goku go Super Saiyan in BOG? Yes he did, so he can still use it. The ki was already entirely his own when he absorbed it. All he did afterwards was train to master his ki so it never leaked, which was shown to invoke SSB.

If using SSB requires your ki to not leak in addition to using God's power as a Super Saiyan, then if your ki is leaking, the result of the power will not be SSB if you become a Super Saiyan. With all of this taken into account, is the blurb wrong? No. Super Saiyan Blue is still becoming a Super Saiyan under Super Saiyan God's power. The basic Super Saiyan is still accessible as shown in the series.

Here's the thing. Logically speaking? Yes! It does, regardless of how many times you try to pig-headedly argue the contrary. While the article will not say something awkwardly worded like "they cannot go Super Saiyan anymore", it's a logical consequence akin to "there are three apples; the apples are either red or yellow; two apples are red" -> "it's been said the third apple is yellow". "Goku is a god-like base Saiyan; if god-like base Saiyans turn Super Saiyan they turn Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan; Goku will turn into a Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan if he turns Super Saiyan". The logical equivalent of the last phrase is "Goku will not not turn Super Saiyan Blue if he turns Super Saiyan".

When Goku is shown using Super Saiyan after absorbing God power during BOG and all throughout Super, then Super Saiyan disappearing forever obviously isn't the intention and it doesn't matter what you think the statement should logically mean in this case. It's not outright stated that Super Saiyan is inaccessible and Goku is shown using it during BOG and Super.

Which is a most ironic statement at this point, since that's precisely what you've been doing since the very start. You're applying convenient meanings here and there when it's suitable to your original thesis, and refusing to acknowledge everything else because "it's ridiculous". It's not my fault if you can't maturely accept that you've been thoroughly proven wrong. You'd do well to take issue with the article which goes against your beliefs, not with me.

I acknowledged the article already so lets stop with the strawmans, since you can't actually counter anything that I've said. You can't interpret the article in your own way, ignore everything else and pretend I'm making jumps in logic.

>Goku in the movie states that he can still use gold Super Saiyan.
>Super shows that in addition to having God's power, invoking SSB requires you to master your ki so it never leaks.
>The blurb states Super Saiyan Blue=power of Super Saiyan God+Super Saiyan, just like ROF.
>Goku transformed into the basic Super Saiyan while operating under Super Saiyan God's power, so he can still use it.

You claiming that any of these are not true means that your argument is wrong. They aren't stated anywhere to have 2 base forms. Not even the blurb you're referring to says anything of the sort, so it's moot in that regard.