Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[RandomGuy96]

I wouldn't call bullshit on it if he was. Cell has all of the haxxed power gaining methods as everyone else- hell, he could just do mountain training for a few years and he'll probably surpass Gohan thanks to his Piccolo cells. He could randomly blow himself up and get 33 times stronger. Et cetera.

[Saiga]

No, I don't think so. Piccolo's so called haxx training does nothing for him after the Cell Games - if he was so haxx when training on his lonesome than 1 year in the RoSaT should have made him stronger than Goku who didn't even use his full year. And blowing himself up would be a terribly unreliable method - he only gets the boost when he is actually near death, if it was guaranteed he'd survive, he probably wouldn't get anything out of it. So risking death every time for a less than x2 boost (there's no indication he'd be getting anything like Goku's one-off massive boost) is just plain stupid.

[Insertclevername]

Okay, I see your point. I suppose there is some loose ends that could use tying before the tournament is over (and a proper ending would be welcomed).

God, I really hope if Gohan and Cell have a rematch that it's completely one-sided in Gohan's favour... Cell shouldn't be anywhere close to him.

I have a feeling it'll be the either the opposite or a relatively even match.

[Saiga]

...what, you mean Cell curbstomping Gohan? *shudders*

[miguelnuva1]

I guess you forgot the Majin Punisher. And why would Gogeta be one shotted?

I didn't forget it. I specially mentioned that SS3 Vegetto had one attack and five seconds to beat Buu, while Buu has half a dozen (off the top of my head) attacks that can kill Vegetto in one hit. Not to mention he can just teleport away for five seconds.

Gogeta would be one-shotted because he's nowhere near SS Vegetto, even as a Super Saiyan 3, according to the Daizenshuu, Buuhan's educated guesses, and Old Kai's statements.

Gogeta is a anime character and he beat Janemba who was near Buuhan according to TOEI. Gogeta and Vegito have never been stated 100% offically on where their power lies all we know is that Potara is stronger than the dance and most have Goku and Vegeta only twice as strong as Goten and Trunks so they put Gogeta 2x then Gotenks.

Vegito's Majin punished was used when he was in MSSJ and Bra used it as well so since SSJ2 Vegito and Hyper Buu are the same tire Vegito has the advantage.

[Insertclevername]

...what, you mean Cell curbstomping Gohan? *shudders*

Not that I want it, but I feel it might be the case.

[dbzfan7]

...what, you mean Cell curbstomping Gohan? *shudders*

Cell was surprised at Gohan's power when he was powering up briefly. Gohan may not have even went all out at that time leading me to believe Gohan has the advantage.

[RandomGuy96]

I guess you forgot the Majin Punisher. And why would Gogeta be one shotted?

I didn't forget it. I specially mentioned that SS3 Vegetto had one attack and five seconds to beat Buu, while Buu has half a dozen (off the top of my head) attacks that can kill Vegetto in one hit. Not to mention he can just teleport away for five seconds.

Gogeta would be one-shotted because he's nowhere near SS Vegetto, even as a Super Saiyan 3, according to the Daizenshuu, Buuhan's educated guesses, and Old Kai's statements.

Gogeta is a anime character and he beat Janemba who was near Buuhan according to TOEI. Gogeta and Vegito have never been stated 100% offically on where their power lies all we know is that Potara is stronger than the dance and most have Goku and Vegeta only twice as strong as Goten and Trunks so they put Gogeta 2x then Gotenks.

Vegito's Majin punished was used when he was in MSSJ and Bra used it as well so since SSJ2 Vegito and Hyper Buu are the same tire Vegito has the advantage.

Roughly twice as strong as Gotenks is probably where Gogeta is... meaning, weaker than Buuhan, to say nothing of this Buu. Janemba was never said to be close to Buuhan, he was just above Hirudegarn who is around Gohan (doesn't really have to be higher than that). But that's anime anyway; Salagir doesn't follow that and I don't blame him, because it's assuming that SS Gogeta is on par with Buutenks, which everyone knows is a load of crap.

We know that the dance is like addition while potara is like multiplication.

Vegetto has one attack that may give him the advantage against Zen Buu. Zen Buu has at least half a dozen right off the bat.

No, I don't think so. Piccolo's so called haxx training does nothing for him after the Cell Games - if he was so haxx when training on his lonesome than 1 year in the RoSaT should have made him stronger than Goku who didn't even use his full year. And blowing himself up would be a terribly unreliable method - he only gets the boost when he is actually near death, if it was guaranteed he'd survive, he probably wouldn't get anything out of it. So risking death every time for a less than x2 boost (there's no indication he'd be getting anything like Goku's one-off massive boost) is just plain stupid.

The thing is, Piccolo gets at least three bouts of haxxed training, while Cell hasn't had any (he's never had any time to train). If he just got one, it would be enough to put above Gohan. I have no problem with a hypothetical Uber Cell being above Ultimate Gohah, since he's ultra strong in the first few months of his life and has the cells of everyone who got bullshit power ups. Just imagine Goku starting at eight billion instead of ten. But, most of all, because we don't actually know anything about Cell's real potential, since he died so quickly.

Nothing says he can't get one of Goku's x33 zenkais either. Just because his first zenkai only made him like x1.33 doesn't mean all of them will. Still not seeing how continually blowing himself up and regenerating won't hax him through the roof; it was never implied he couldn't just do that over and over.

[Saiga]

The thing is, Piccolo gets at least three bouts of haxxed training, while Cell hasn't had any (he's never had any time to train). If he just got one, it would be enough to put above Gohan. I have no problem with a hypothetical Uber Cell being above Ultimate Gohah, since he's ultra strong in the first few months of his life and has the cells of everyone who got bullshit power ups. Just imagine Goku starting at eight billion instead of ten. But, most of all, because we don't actually know anything about Cell's real potential, since he died so quickly.

Nothing says he can't get one of Goku's x33 zenkais either. Just because his first zenkai only made him like x1.33 doesn't mean all of them will. Still not seeing how continually blowing himself up and regenerating won't hax him through the roof; it was never implied he couldn't just do that over and over.

Only one case for Piccolo where the result as uber haxx and every time his gains have been noticeable he's had a partner. He's never levelled up considerably through solo training. Cell has the Cell Juniors, but they suck.

All of Cell's gains were due to absorption and a zenkai, not training or anything else. So how quickly he got strong doesn't matter. You can't say that "because he got this strong through this method, he can get just as strong through a different method". The fact that he's never gotten any strength from training doesn't help his case either, and it's not like haxx training gains are handed out on a "everybody gets 1/2/3" so not having them happen to him doesn't mean it's likely that it will.

I would say we do have an idea of his potential, because he was in his completed form. He still got stronger than that, but it wasn't a completely different realm of power. I think completing himself is going to be the biggest gain he's going to have.

And it seems you've completely ignored the risk factor in repeatedly bringing yourself to the brink of death. I've also said this time and time again: bullshit simply does not justify more bullshit. Goku's 33x boost was bullshit, so if Cell gets it... still bullshit. Not impossible, but that's not what I'm trying to argue here.

[RandomGuy96]

Only one case for Piccolo where the result as uber haxx and every time his gains have been noticeable he's had a partner. He's never levelled up considerably through solo training. Cell has the Cell Juniors, but they suck.

All of Cell's gains were due to absorption and a zenkai, not training or anything else. So how quickly he got strong doesn't matter. You can't say that "because he got this strong through this method, he can get just as strong through a different method". The fact that he's never gotten any strength from training doesn't help his case either, and it's not like haxx training gains are handed out on a "everybody gets 1/2/3" so not having them happen to him doesn't mean it's likely that it will.

I would say we do have an idea of his potential, because he was in his completed form. He still got stronger than that, but it wasn't a completely different realm of power. I think completing himself is going to be the biggest gain he's going to have.

And it seems you've completely ignored the risk factor in repeatedly bringing yourself to the brink of death. I've also said this time and time again: bullshit simply does not justify more bullshit. Goku's 33x boost was bullshit, so if Cell gets it... still bullshit. Not impossible, but that's not what I'm trying to argue here.

Of course, he didn't have any time. But Piccolo got 8.5 times stronger training in the wilderness with Gohan (who's weaker to him, relatively, than a Cell Jr is to Cell) for ONE YEAR. He leveled up enough that he thought he stood a chance against Freeza after sensing him in seven days on King Kai's planet. He got x100 times stronger in the android arc. He leveled up more in five years than Goku did in 20. He has Piccolo's cells, so there's no reason he shouldn't have ALL of his abilities... gaining strength really fast for no real reason is technically an ability. Also, haxxed zenkais. He has Goku's and Vegeta's cells and can get those too.

That's what you think. There's no evidence he can't get stronger from there and, considering who he's made of, and his purpose as the ultimate warrior, it would actually be really silly if he couldn't.

I'm ignoring the risk factor because there doesn't seem to be one- nowhere is it implied that Cell just can't bring himself to the brink of death and just come back repeatedly like Goku did. He just regenerated with no difficulty after blowing himself up. I'm not saying it's not silly, but it can't be called bullshit because it follows the pre-established rules of the series itself. It would be bullshit if you called it bullshit, since you'd be doing so without any evidence that Cell can't do that and no knowledge of how Cell's gains would work. Hell, Gohan's gains are more worthy of being called bullshit. He trained for one year and got stronger than everyone else combined, and then sat down for 24 hours and got stronger than everyone else combined again. So why can't Cell get the same ludicrous gains?

...in hindsight everyone was lucky Raditz arrived when he did. If he had been off by one year then the new haxxed Piccolo would roflstomp him and Goku, take over Earth, train a bit more, and roflstomp Vegeta and Nappa when they arrive.

[Saiga]

'cause Gohan was built up from the very beginning to have great potential.

Cell was shocked that he survived the explosion - it was a fluke, it wasn't supposed to happen. I don't think there is any merit in believing that fluke will happen every single time. The fact that he powered up means there is a very real chance of him dying, otherwise being blown in half should count as "near death" - and it doesn't.

It's not really consistent with the series' rules just because the series did it. The series can be inconsistent with itself and that is what it is seemingly doing when it comes to stuff like Piccolo getting 100x stronger in the Android arc and Goku getting a 33x Zenkai right before fight Freeza. They're not addressed, not repeated, and just quietly swept under the rug. For a fanfic writer to base their writing on the inconsistent parts of the series is just plain bad writing. Especially when Piccolo having hax gains because he develops faster is just a fan interpretation, so it doesn't justify Cell developing fast from his cells.

[RandomGuy96]

'cause Gohan was built up from the very beginning to have great potential.

Cell was shocked that he survived the explosion - it was a fluke, it wasn't supposed to happen. I don't think there is any merit in believing that fluke will happen every single time. The fact that he powered up means there is a very real chance of him dying, otherwise being blown in half should count as "near death" - and it doesn't.

It's not really consistent with the series' rules just because the series did it. The series can be inconsistent with itself and that is what it is seemingly doing when it comes to stuff like Piccolo getting 100x stronger in the Android arc and Goku getting a 33x Zenkai right before fight Freeza. They're not addressed, not repeated, and just quietly swept under the rug. For a fanfic writer to base their writing on the inconsistent parts of the series is just plain bad writing.

And Cell was built up as the ultimate being and has the abilities of all the heroes. His gains would be less bullshit than Gohan's, who's just randomly strong because Toriyama says so, and got stronger than everyone else combined in 1 year because lulz (including Trunks, a fellow hybrid who took two ROSAT trips and had the Super Saiyan form for way longer), and then got stronger than everyone combined again because an old man did a stupid dance.

All that proves is that Cell doesn't know his own capabilities. Near death doesn't mean you can't repeat it for personal gain without much risk- Goku did it, and he can't even regenerate. Evidence that Cell can't just regenerate again and again? Or, hell, just do it once and get x33 times stronger like his cell donor did?

They're not really inconsistent- there's no set boost for zenkais or Piccolo's training. We just know that both had been shown to give giant haxed boosts even before the infamous increases we all know and love. Vegeta randomly get 9 to 18 times stronger from his zenkai after the Recoome fight, Goku randomly got 11 times stronger from four zenkais (completely making Vegeta's two zenkais, as well as all his Dragon Ball zenkais, look like shit), Piccolo got stronger than Kami and equal to Goku in four years, he got eight times stronger in six months (he spent the rest training Gohan), he got an unknown but certainly ludicrous boost in 1 week. Heh, if anything the ones that DIDN'T give haxxed increases were the inconsistent ones.

Also, can't Cell just absorb people, like he did when he was Imperfect?

[Saiga]

No, they wouldn't - he's got the abilities of people with less potential that Gohan has, and he's the ultimate warrior in the same vein as Freeza being the strongest in the universe - it's not an unsurpassable position.

Goku can repeat it but he's in a different situation to Cell. He doesn't regenerate, and that makes it easier for him to be brought near death. He can bring himself near death while still being well within the Senzu Bean's healing capabilities, allowing him to abuse it as long as he has beans. Cell is a lot tougher than that, and the best healing method he has available is one he has to come close to beating in order to be "near death". If his own regeneration can heal him every time, he's not near death.

They are inconsistent, because Piccolo is only ever shown getting his Android arc boost one time and Goku only gets his 33x Zenkai one time. The fact that it took 100x gravity training AND at least four Zenkais to get 11x stronger (plus the possibility that he was already stronger after fighting Vegeta) makes the next Zenkai that comes around very inconsistent with all the others he got.

[KentalSSJ6]

Honestly when I first read this, I was amazed. Awesome what if fights and great art. Now..not so much. Also a lot of factors in this comic is wrong, seeing how Salagir works on a tier system for the characters which in DBZ, simply does not work. I think we can figure out the ending. Buu is stopped by Vegito, Vegito goes made like we saw in Bardock's flashbacks, then Goku is gonna go Super Saiyan God and defeat Vegito. Besides Uber OP MUGEN Hacks Broly that they used in this and the abscene of Bills and Whiss, not much else would win against him besides SSJG.

[RandomGuy96]

No, they wouldn't - he's got the abilities of people with less potential that Gohan has, and he's the ultimate warrior in the same vein as Freeza being the strongest in the universe - it's not an unsurpassable position.

Goku can repeat it but he's in a different situation to Cell. He doesn't regenerate, and that makes it easier for him to be brought near death. He can bring himself near death while still being well within the Senzu Bean's healing capabilities, allowing him to abuse it as long as he has beans. Cell is a lot tougher than that, and the best healing method he has available is one he has to come close to beating in order to be "near death". If his own regeneration can heal him every time, he's not near death.

They are inconsistent, because Piccolo is only ever shown getting his Android arc boost one time and Goku only gets his 33x Zenkai one time. The fact that it took 100x gravity training AND at least four Zenkais to get 11x stronger (plus the possibility that he was already stronger after fighting Vegeta) makes the next Zenkai that comes around very inconsistent with all the others he got.

So why does Gohan's "great potential" shtick also have to be unsurpassable? Less potential or no, we still don't know if Cell realized any of it before he died.

Still not seeing how he can't just do that. Still not seeing the evidence that he can't at least do it one or two more times.

All we know is that those four zenkais were absurdly stronger than anything Vegeta ever got, so any logical scaling of them was thrown right out the window there. In fact we have only three examples of conservative zenkais, and seven examples of haxxed ones. We also have 1 example of conservative mountain training gains for Piccolo, and four examples of haxxed training. Cell only has to exploit one of these abilities to get stronger- and there should be no reason that he can't.

[Draken]

To me, it doesn't seem like Cell is the training type. At all.
Second off was it certain he could absorb people while in his Perfect Form? Did he ever try it against Gohan? I honestly don't remember that part of the fight.
Third off, it seems to me he was built with one intent in mind, to achieve perfection. That is probably around as strong as he gets from what I see. Otherwise, if he had all that built up potential in himself, he could just hide his energy, go off training, and come back as haxed as you say he could be.
And also neither Vegeta nor Goku have ever been stated to have as much latent potential as Gohan, so I don't think Cell's potential would overcome Gohan.

Think of it this way. You say Cell has so many ways to get uber haxed stronger. What if absorption was just yet another way? After all, Piccolo himself has just about plateaued off after the Cell Games, Goku and Vegeta have hit their own plateaus many times throughout the series. What if, since he was Cell, he had, besides the Piccolo hax and Vegeta/Goku hax, his own absorption hax, that he already used up? Putting his Perfect Form already at the near limit of his potential, seeing as that's the way he was built. Then the methods remaining to him are obsolete because he's already at his top.

And the zenkai was a surprise to him probably because what happened was just that, a surprise? I don't think it's possible to calculate the explosion to such a minute point that Gero would leave the one remaining cell alive part of the exact group that Cell needs to survive to continue regeneration.

[Saiga]

So why does Gohan's "great potential" shtick also have to be unsurpassable? Less potential or no, we still don't know if Cell realized any of it before he died.

Still not seeing how he can't just do that. Still not seeing the evidence that he can't at least do it one or two more times.

All we know is that those four zenkais were absurdly stronger than anything Vegeta ever got, so any logical scaling of them was thrown right out the window there. In fact we have only three examples of conservative zenkais, and seven examples of haxxed ones. We also have 1 example of conservative mountain training gains for Piccolo, and four examples of haxxed training. Cell only has to exploit one of these abilities to get stronger- and there should be no reason that he can't.

It's not that it's unsurpassable, there's just no basis for Cell to surpass it. Besides, even if it were unsurpassable it'd make more sense because it's not just a title or to do with current power levels but future ones as well.

He can do it - but he risks actually dying every time he does it. If he's near death than it means he can't guarantee surviving each time, making it risky. And I don't think it's worth taking the risk, especially once you're already the strongest in your universe.

[Insertclevername]

I doubt Cell would risk killing himself for no reason. I mean, he isn't a Z Senshi or anything who are able to train with Kaio after death. Death means Cell goes straight to hell.

I be dropping dope rhymes, son

[RandomGuy96]

It's not that it's unsurpassable, there's just no basis for Cell to surpass it. Besides, even if it were unsurpassable it'd make more sense because it's not just a title or to do with current power levels but future ones as well.

He can do it - but he risks actually dying every time he does it. If he's near death than it means he can't guarantee surviving each time, making it risky. And I don't think it's worth taking the risk, especially once you're already the strongest in your universe.

Cell can surpass it because there's no reason he shouldn't be able to, since he all has all of the power gaining methods I mentioned. Whether he would actually bother to is a different matter.

I still don't see any evidence that he won't just regenerate 100% of the time. I don't know WHY he'd bother doing this when he's already the strongest guy in the universe no contest, but that's again, another matter.

[Draken]

It's not that it's unsurpassable, there's just no basis for Cell to surpass it. Besides, even if it were unsurpassable it'd make more sense because it's not just a title or to do with current power levels but future ones as well.

He can do it - but he risks actually dying every time he does it. If he's near death than it means he can't guarantee surviving each time, making it risky. And I don't think it's worth taking the risk, especially once you're already the strongest in your universe.

Cell can surpass it because there's no reason he shouldn't be able to, since he all has all of the power gaining methods I mentioned. Whether he would actually bother to is a different matter.

I still don't see any evidence that he won't just regenerate 100% of the time. I don't know WHY he'd bother doing this when he's already the strongest guy in the universe no contest, but that's again, another matter.

I thought his regen was limited, unlike Buu.