Angelus wrote:Whoa. So does base Gotenks post even need to go SSJ to beat Full Power Fat Buu (Pre Split)?
IMO no. Goku states that SSj Gotenks Pre will be more powerful than him and it's never contradicted.
Piccolo states SSj Gotenks can't beat Evil Boo and sends him into the RoSaT. Even after they spend a week in the RoSaT he still has no confidence in them winning and is hoping for a miracle.
Then you have Trunks and Goten agreeing that their Post-RoSaT power is so great that they're equal with Evil Boo even in base. When Piccolo senses base Gotenks Post he is shocked and thinks they can actually win with that power.
I think almost everybody here would disagree with this argument but meh. base Gotenks Post >>> SSj Gotenks Pre > SSj3 Goku is considered pretty solid on most DB forums.
Darkron2151 wrote:And why not? It is deeply implied that Fusion dance is a consistent boost (Goku's confidence in the boost when he saw it in other-world and wanted to attribute it to the boys, along with its strict requirements). And it's also stated that boosts for the boys would mean boosts for Gotenks as well. And I wouldn't put too much stock in Piccolo's "He-he really is different…! He really has greatly powered up…! Th-this just might…!", because he retracts that statement in like, the very next panel when he sees Base Gotenks do nothing to Buu, whom Piccolo has been sensing for the past hour or so and should know how strong he is. Plus, that would also mean that Trunks and Goten are now FAR stronger than their fathers (in the same form). If the boost was random, then why would Goku have so much confidence in Fusion if it has the chance of giving a really small boost, unless it was consistent with a boost that would be enough to stop Buu. And if it was a smaller boost, someone would've commented so when they fused.
Also if Gotenks or any other Fusion had different Super Saiyan Boosts, then that would mean Super Saiyan Trunks and Goten receive a FAR weaker boost from fusion as opposed to fusing in Base, and also that would contradict Goku's prediction of SSJ Gotenks ever having the ability to beat Buu. Goku knows:
A. How strong fusion is.
B. How strong Super Saiyan is.
C. How strong Trunks and Goten are.
With all those factors in mind, Goku made the conclusion that Fusion would be enough to beat Buu. If Gotenks got a smaller multiplier, it would've been sheer dumb luck that he'd be stronger than Buu, because he never factored in any other "multipliers" other than the Super Saiyan Boost.
It's just plot. The plot dictates that SSj Gotenks Pre will be enough to beat Boo so Son is confident in him. We get statements about Gokhan and Gogeta too even though they're never shown, just as an easy way of letting the reader know where they stand without having to come up with stupid excuses to have them appear.
My issue with there being a consistent boost is that it's implied that base Gotenks Post >>> SSj Gotenks Pre but it's never implied that Goten and Trunks made any huge increases. Considering Goten was a good sparring partner for Gohan Pre-RoSaT, that could mean he'd be as high as base Goten > SSj Gohan, which is insane. There'd definitely be a statement that something like this happened IMO.
base Gotenks (Pre) > SSj2 Vegeta is also implied. There's no way to do that with the canon 50x multiplier for SSj and the canon 4x multiplier for SSj3 unless you think SSj Gotenks Pre was way, way, way above SSj3 Goku.
I don't see any reason to ignore base Gotenks > SSj Gotenks Pre. It was never contradicted IMO. Only thing that was contradicted was base Gotenks Post >= Evil Boo and that can be explained with Son's statement that Boo's Ki is a lie. It reminds me of Cell being stated to be below SSjG2 Vegeta, just to do a sudden power-up when Vegeta attacked him and totally tank Vegeta's kick.
I also feel base Gotenks Post being stated to do a massive, massive power-up and be confident in beating Boo, just to do no damage whatsoever to him mirrors some other scenes that also cannot be considered "gag" and discarded. Notably BoG SSj2 Vegeta getting a rage boost that puts him above Goku and enables him to bash around Beerus, only for it to be revealed that he did no damage to him. Also GT Pan knocking Rild down and being stated to be above GT Trunks, only for Rild to get back up like nothing happened.
