Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

That's exactly why Piccolo is stronger.

Why would he even attack Tagoma while being weighted and be shocked at his failure if he saw Gohan almost getting killed by him? He also heard Gohan saying Tagoma was as strong as his best but even still attacked alone and with a handicap? It makes no sense if he's weaker than base Gohan.

Gohan never trained from Boo arc - RoF. He shouldn't be stronger than his Z Sword self without his Ultimate transformation. That's just common sense and nope, Ultimate is a transformation. It got confirmed on this week's preview.

I watched 3 different subs now and nowhere did Freeza say Gohan is the strongest. The only one that said so was Tagoma.

As I have pointed out, the weight cloths do not give Piccolo a big boost. On average, it is only 20%. Meaning if Piccolo was stronger, it wasn't by much. And keep in mind that Gohan was also caught off-guard and Piccolo was attacking with righteous fury. In that moment, he had no reason to hold back.

He may have lost energy, but his base wouldn't go back to where it was during the Buu Saga. That was plainly show in both Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F'. His Ultimate form is only all of his power unleashed and amplified. So even if he did get weaker, nothing said his power would reset to exactly where it was several years ago. Ultimate isn't a multiplier like Super Saiyan.

Freeza called him the strongest when he signal him as being able to take out his entire army instantly. If Piccolo was vastly strong, Freeza would have at least mentioned him. He didn't. As for Tagoma, it was both Tagoma and Ginyu. While it's questionable if Tagoma can sense ki, he wasn't shocked by the power Piccolo used when he punched him in the face, yet felt compelled to wipe out Gohan. Ginyu despite not being able to sense ki on Namek was able to closely guess where Goku's base form was at before Kaioken. At first he said 60,000. After fighting him, he raised it to around 80,000, which is closed since it was 90,000. Yet, Ginyu went after Gohan and ignored Piccolo.

Given all of that, there is nothing putting Piccolo above base form Gohan other than 'he didn't have Ultimate, therefore his base form should be back to Buu Saga level', which was never stated or implied. In other words, you're using your headcanon to pushed something that was never stated in the show.

On a final note, you also assumed that Shisami got nerf in Super since in Resurrection 'F' he was stated to be equal to Piccolo. The problem is, the show never said he got nerf. In fact, everyone in the Resurrection 'F' Saga got buffed from the movie counterparts, so why would Shisami be so much weaker? Again, headcanon.

[AvatarReiko]

Roshi stronger than Tien absolutely makes no sense.

Seriously? These are the same writers that made Frieza jump from namek levels to god tier with 4 months of training(A level Goku previously stated he could never reach on his own) and introduced SSj Ikari. Never mind a holding back 17 being able to spar with SSJ Blue. Nothing surprises me anymore. Characters are only as strong as the plot demands mom too the time

[HeroR]

Roshi stronger than Tien absolutely makes no sense.

Seriously? These are the same writers that made Frieza jump from namek levels to god tier with 4 months of training(A level Goku previously stated he could never reach on his own) and introduced SSj Ikari. Nothing surprises me anymore. Characters are only as strong as the plot demands 90% of the time

That is the same with any anime. The butt hurt because certain characters get stronger is the worst aspect of this fanbase.

[AvatarReiko]

Roshi stronger than Tien absolutely makes no sense.

Seriously? These are the same writers that made Frieza jump from namek levels to god tier with 4 months of training(A level Goku previously stated he could never reach on his own) and introduced SSj Ikari. Nothing surprises me anymore. Characters are only as strong as the plot demands 90% of the time

That is the same with any anime.

Nope. Not when it's written properly with consistency and logic. Fans these days will come up with all the excuses under the sun to justify the flaws in Super's writing.
The butt hurt because certain characters get stronger is the worst aspect of this fanbase.

I guess your one of those people that thinks Trunks' genki sword makes sense or him being able hold off Zamasu and Black for a whole day

[HeroR]

Nope. Not when it's written properly with consistency and logic. Fans these days will come up with all the excuses under the sun to justify the flaws in Super's writing.

And what is 'logical' within Dragon Ball? Like Goku going from weaker than Vegeta to being toe-to-toe with 50% Freeza and how he was much stronger than Vegeta who purposely got a hole blown through his chest. Or how about Piccolo going from weaker than third form Freeza to bodying Android 20 who is said to be stronger than 100% Freeza. Even if he was weaker, that is still a 100x increase, which is bigger than the gain he got from merging with Kami.

[AvatarReiko]

Going by this episode, Krillin is still the strongest earthling. Krillin was able to keep up with Base Goku and force him into SSJ. Base Goku handled Roshi with ease, the same Roshi who easily beat down Tien

My boy Kril styling on those earthling clowns

I wouldn't call Goku having to use one of his one of his most powerful techniques winning with "ease".

[ZombieVito]

That's exactly why Piccolo is stronger.

Why would he even attack Tagoma while being weighted and be shocked at his failure if he saw Gohan almost getting killed by him? He also heard Gohan saying Tagoma was as strong as his best but even still attacked alone and with a handicap? It makes no sense if he's weaker than base Gohan.

Gohan never trained from Boo arc - RoF. He shouldn't be stronger than his Z Sword self without his Ultimate transformation. That's just common sense and nope, Ultimate is a transformation. It got confirmed on this week's preview.

I watched 3 different subs now and nowhere did Freeza say Gohan is the strongest. The only one that said so was Tagoma.

As I have pointed out, the weight cloths do not give Piccolo a big boost. On average, it is only 20%. Meaning if Piccolo was stronger, it wasn't by much. And keep in mind that Gohan was also caught off-guard and Piccolo was attacking with righteous fury. In that moment, he had no reason to hold back.

He may have lost energy, but his base wouldn't go back to where it was during the Buu Saga. That was plainly show in both Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F'. His Ultimate form is only all of his power unleashed and amplified. So even if he did get weaker, nothing said his power would reset to exactly where it was several years ago. Ultimate isn't a multiplier like Super Saiyan.

Freeza called him the strongest when he signal him as being able to take out his entire army instantly. If Piccolo was vastly strong, Freeza would have at least mentioned him. He didn't. As for Tagoma, it was both Tagoma and Ginyu. While it's questionable if Tagoma can sense ki, he wasn't shocked by the power Piccolo used when he punched him in the face, yet felt compelled to wipe out Gohan. Ginyu despite not being able to sense ki on Namek was able to closely guess where Goku's base form was at before Kaioken. At first he said 60,000. After fighting him, he raised it to around 80,000, which is closed since it was 90,000. Yet, Ginyu went after Gohan and ignored Piccolo.

Given all of that, there is nothing putting Piccolo above base form Gohan other than 'he didn't have Ultimate, therefore his base form should be back to Buu Saga level', which was never stated or implied. In other words, you're using your headcanon to pushed something that was never stated in the show.

On a final note, you also assumed that Shisami got nerf in Super since in Resurrection 'F' he was stated to be equal to Piccolo. The problem is, the show never said he got nerf. In fact, everyone in the Resurrection 'F' Saga got buffed from the movie counterparts, so why would Shisami be so much weaker? Again, headcanon.

20% is a big difference in a fight but they also decrease his speed. Like it or not it is a handicap. Are you going to ignore that Gohan said that Tagoma was as strong as his best and Piccolo still attacked him all cocky?

Why wouldn't he revert back to his Z sword self? He doesn't have the transformation.

In Super Freeza didn't. Tagoma couldn't even use his full power so I seriously doubt he could predict power like Ginyu did, he just lacks skill. Also please watch the episode again, Ginyu never went after Gohan. The latter challenged the former.

Shisami's fight with Piccolo in the movie is a plothole. In Toriyama's script he was never in the ship when Freeza revived. He was actually one of the powerful mercenaries Freeza hired. Since the series never mentioned he trained, it only make sense to put him in the tier he was stated to be in the series.

[omaro34]

Roshi stronger than Tien absolutely makes no sense.

Seriously? These are the same writers that made Frieza jump from namek levels to god tier with 4 months of training(A level Goku previously stated he could never reach on his own) and introduced SSj Ikari. Nothing surprises me anymore. Characters are only as strong as the plot demands 90% of the time

That is the same with any anime. The butt hurt because certain characters get stronger is the worst aspect of this fanbase.

The plot didn't demand Roshi stomping Tien rather quickly. It could have easily been handled differently, as well as that girl Yurin's dumb motivation to go after Tien and get revenge. Lazy writing.

And butthurt? I don't care if Roshi gets a power up. I couldn't care less. I just have a problem with characters getting stronger with little to no explanation given. If they give us something that would be one thing, all I ask for is the plot to make some sense from all angles including the strength narrative.

[HeroR]

20% is a big difference in a fight but they also decrease his speed. Like it or not it is a handicap. Are you going to ignore that Gohan said that Tagoma was as strong as his best and Piccolo still attacked him all cocky?

Why wouldn't he revert back to his Z sword self? He doesn't have the transformation.

In Super Freeza didn't. Tagoma couldn't even use his full power so I seriously doubt he could predict power like Ginyu did, he just lacks skill. Also please watch the episode again, Ginyu never went after Gohan. The latter challenged the former.

Shisami's fight with Piccolo in the movie is a plothole. In Toriyama's script he was never in the ship when Freeza revived. He was actually one of the powerful mercenaries Freeza hired. Since the series never mentioned he trained, it only make sense to put him in the tier he was stated to be in the series.

20% isn't a huge different, especially since no fight had been decided for Piccolo based on his weighed clothes. Piccolo attack cockily, what else is new? And again, why would he suppressed himself against a foe who blew a hole through Gohan's chest and he was pissed. He was in full papa wolf mode and held back that much power?

Here's the thing. We don't know how strong Z-Sword Gohan was. Everyone assumed that he may have gotten stronger. It wasn't anything noticeable since no one was sure and Gohan had to throw the suggesting out there.

What are you talking about Tagoma couldn't used his full power? That is like claiming that Vegeta couldn't used his full power until he became a Majin. And Freeza had problems with his full power and he can still sense ki. Having control of your full power has nothing to do with being able to sense your opponent or guess how strong they are. Tagoma is a trained warrior and he recognized Gohan as the stronger, something he didn't do for Piccolo. When Piccolo punched him he said, 'I thought as much', meaning he had estimated Piccolo's power and was proven correct. Gohan also pushed Tagoma back, when he was in the middle of an attack so he wasn't caught off-guard. In fact, when Ginyu floored everyone, Piccolo was on his knees while Gohan could stand up, even if he was out of breath.

In Super, Freeza did note Gohan's strength and said he could kill his men if he chose to. He didn't even glanced at Piccolo who by your logical should crap all over Gohan's power.

First, look up the meaning of plot hole. Nothing in Piccolo's fight with him is one. Shisami was equal to stronger than Piccolo and it was never hinted that he got nerf. So again, your headcanon. In the movie and Super, he's one of Freeza's men, that is the canon of the story. And even, there was nothing said about Shisami's strength. Only he is ranked and revered as Zarbon and Dordori. Even Herms clear this up.

The plot didn't demand Roshi stomping Tien rather quickly. It could have easily been handled differently, as well as that girl Yurin's dumb motivation to go after Tien and get revenge. Lazy writing.

And butthurt? I don't care if Roshi gets a power up. I couldn't care less. I just have a problem with characters getting stronger with little to no explanation given. If they give us something that would be one thing, all I ask for is the plot to make some sense from all angles including the strength narrative.

Roshi had better experience and used a powerful technique to floor Tien. The same technique that took Great Ape Goku several seconds to break out of.

There was an explanation. Roshi trained, just like everything else in the series. And Tien pointed out that Yurin's were petty, which wouldn't be a first in the series.

And 'lazy writing'. The the most overused and cop-out BS on this forum. You not liking something doesn't make it lazy and you using that word just makes you look like a salty fan.

[ZombieVito]

20% is a big difference in a fight but they also decrease his speed. Like it or not it is a handicap. Are you going to ignore that Gohan said that Tagoma was as strong as his best and Piccolo still attacked him all cocky?

Why wouldn't he revert back to his Z sword self? He doesn't have the transformation.

In Super Freeza didn't. Tagoma couldn't even use his full power so I seriously doubt he could predict power like Ginyu did, he just lacks skill. Also please watch the episode again, Ginyu never went after Gohan. The latter challenged the former.

Shisami's fight with Piccolo in the movie is a plothole. In Toriyama's script he was never in the ship when Freeza revived. He was actually one of the powerful mercenaries Freeza hired. Since the series never mentioned he trained, it only make sense to put him in the tier he was stated to be in the series.

20% isn't a huge different, especially since no fight had been decided for Piccolo based on his weighed clothes. Piccolo attack cockily, what else is new? And again, why would he suppressed himself against a foe who blew a hole through Gohan's chest and he was pissed. He was in full papa wolf mode and held back that much power?

Here's the thing. We don't know how strong Z-Sword Gohan was. Everyone assumed that he may have gotten stronger. It wasn't anything noticeable since no one was sure and Gohan had to throw the suggesting out there.

What are you talking about Tagoma couldn't used his full power? That is like claiming that Vegeta couldn't used his full power until he became a Majin. And Freeza had problems with his full power and he can still sense ki. Having control of your full power has nothing to do with being able to sense your opponent or guess how strong they are. Tagoma is a trained warrior and he recognized Gohan as the stronger, something he didn't do for Piccolo. When Piccolo punched him he said, 'I thought as much', meaning he had estimated Piccolo's power and was proven correct. Gohan also pushed Tagoma back, when he was in the middle of an attack so he wasn't caught off-guard. In fact, when Ginyu floored everyone, Piccolo was on his knees while Gohan could stand up, even if he was out of breath.

In Super, Freeza did note Gohan's strength and said he could kill his men if he chose to. He didn't even glanced at Piccolo who by your logical should crap all over Gohan's power.

First, look up the meaning of plot hole. Nothing in Piccolo's fight with him is one. Shisami was equal to stronger than Piccolo and it was never hinted that he got nerf. So again, your headcanon. In the movie and Super, he's one of Freeza's men, that is the canon of the story. And even, there was nothing said about Shisami's strength. Only he is ranked and revered as Zarbon and Dordori. Even Herms clear this up.

Sigh.

When has Piccolo ever been cocky while fighting someone, especially someone stronger? Gohan even said in Namek that Piccolo isn't like that.

We do know. Goku pretty much implied that SSJ2 post Z Sword Gohan was still weaker than Fat Boo.

Ginyu was said to be able to use Tagoma's full power and he can't unlock power the body doesn't have. Tagoma didn't even have the skill to use his full power on his own.

He glanced over him because he recognized him in that moment. Besides they were all suppressed there....

It is a plothole. Shisami was stated to be Zarbon tier but was beating Piccolo in the movie. Toriyama's script has no plotholes with him.

[omaro34]

20% is a big difference in a fight but they also decrease his speed. Like it or not it is a handicap. Are you going to ignore that Gohan said that Tagoma was as strong as his best and Piccolo still attacked him all cocky?

Why wouldn't he revert back to his Z sword self? He doesn't have the transformation.

In Super Freeza didn't. Tagoma couldn't even use his full power so I seriously doubt he could predict power like Ginyu did, he just lacks skill. Also please watch the episode again, Ginyu never went after Gohan. The latter challenged the former.

Shisami's fight with Piccolo in the movie is a plothole. In Toriyama's script he was never in the ship when Freeza revived. He was actually one of the powerful mercenaries Freeza hired. Since the series never mentioned he trained, it only make sense to put him in the tier he was stated to be in the series.

20% isn't a huge different, especially since no fight had been decided for Piccolo based on his weighed clothes. Piccolo attack cockily, what else is new? And again, why would he suppressed himself against a foe who blew a hole through Gohan's chest and he was pissed. He was in full papa wolf mode and held back that much power?

Here's the thing. We don't know how strong Z-Sword Gohan was. Everyone assumed that he may have gotten stronger. It wasn't anything noticeable since no one was sure and Gohan had to throw the suggesting out there.

What are you talking about Tagoma couldn't used his full power? That is like claiming that Vegeta couldn't used his full power until he became a Majin. And Freeza had problems with his full power and he can still sense ki. Having control of your full power has nothing to do with being able to sense your opponent or guess how strong they are. Tagoma is a trained warrior and he recognized Gohan as the stronger, something he didn't do for Piccolo. When Piccolo punched him he said, 'I thought as much', meaning he had estimated Piccolo's power and was proven correct. Gohan also pushed Tagoma back, when he was in the middle of an attack so he wasn't caught off-guard. In fact, when Ginyu floored everyone, Piccolo was on his knees while Gohan could stand up, even if he was out of breath.

In Super, Freeza did note Gohan's strength and said he could kill his men if he chose to. He didn't even glanced at Piccolo who by your logical should crap all over Gohan's power.

First, look up the meaning of plot hole. Nothing in Piccolo's fight with him is one. Shisami was equal to stronger than Piccolo and it was never hinted that he got nerf. So again, your headcanon. In the movie and Super, he's one of Freeza's men, that is the canon of the story. And even, there was nothing said about Shisami's strength. Only he is ranked and revered as Zarbon and Dordori. Even Herms clear this up.

The plot didn't demand Roshi stomping Tien rather quickly. It could have easily been handled differently, as well as that girl Yurin's dumb motivation to go after Tien and get revenge. Lazy writing.

And butthurt? I don't care if Roshi gets a power up. I couldn't care less. I just have a problem with characters getting stronger with little to no explanation given. If they give us something that would be one thing, all I ask for is the plot to make some sense from all angles including the strength narrative.

Roshi had better experience and used a powerful technique to floor Tien. The same technique that took Great Ape Goku several seconds to break out of.

There was an explanation. Roshi trained, just like everything else in the series. And Tien pointed out that Yurin's were petty, which wouldn't be a first in the series.

And 'lazy writing'. The the most overused and cop-out BS on this forum. You not liking something doesn't make it lazy and you using that word just makes you look like a salty fan.

Tien stated that he has constantly been training as well, and even Goku complimented him. Its just difficult to imagine because Roshi retired and did nothing throughout Z, while the other Z fighters gained much more power. Sure he took on Freeza's henchmen, but that's about all we saw of him in the battlefield.

If Roshi is being written like this, then I wonder if Toriyama could do the Saiyan saga again, I think he would add Roshi to help out against Nappa and Vegeta.

Yurin upset that Tien didn't train her from Crane School which is going back many years is the best they can come up with? That justifies going after the guy 20 plus years later and getting revenge? That is incredibly petty, immature, and rather stupid logic. You wouldn't agree? A million other reasons could have been given out which could have been better. I don't use the word "lazy" very easily, I'm going to criticize something that does deserve criticism. That specific plotline was incredibly lazy writing. It's my opinion.

[HeroR]

Sigh.

When has Piccolo ever been cocky while fighting someone, especially someone stronger? Gohan even said in Namek that Piccolo isn't like that.

We do know. Goku pretty much implied that SSJ2 post Z Sword Gohan was still weaker than Fat Boo.

Ginyu was said to be able to use Tagoma's full power and he can't unlock power the body doesn't have. Tagoma didn't even have the skill to use his full power on his own.

He glanced over him because he recognized him in that moment. Besides they were all suppressed there....

It is a plothole. Shisami was stated to be Zarbon tier but was beating Piccolo in the movie. Toriyama's script has no plotholes with him.

Piccolo has been proven wrong before, case in point Freeza. He was also sure against Nappa, until Nappa started to kick their butts.

I said we don't know if he got stronger from the Z-Sword, like you implied earlier.

Actually, that was Sorbet who said that Ginyu's specialty was bringing out all the latent power of a body he takes. This has nothing to do with skill, since you can be skillful and still not have all your power unlocked, case in point Majin Vegeta. Babidi unleashed all of Vegeta's hidden power, making the Majin seal no different that Old Kai's ritual.

And why would a suppressed Piccolo be below Gohan to the point that everyone called him the strongest? And Freeza said he recognized him and marveled at his skill, saying how he can kill all his men. He didn't even give Piccolo a second glance. Tagoma also didn't acknowledge Piccolo's power and said 'yeah, what I thought' before tearing his arm off. Meaning that Tagoma in that moment felt justified that Gohan was the strongest and the rest was trash. If Piccolo showed a vast different, Tagoma could have easily said, 'You're stronger than I thought, but you crap to me' or something.

No he wasn't. He was compared to Zarbon in rank, not power. Seriously, look at Herms' translation. And even if he was, he trained, which make sense since he was one of the elite and he knew he was fighting a Super Saiyan who killed Majin Buu and his allies. It would make no sense for him not to train and Tagoma was noted because he not only got a huge power boost, but he was also tortured for four months and his sanity broke. So it isn't a plot hole, which you are still not using correctly. The only different between Toriyama's script and the movie is that Shisami wasn't part of Freeza's army. Nothing about his power.

Tien stated that he has constantly been training as well, and even Goku complimented him. Its just difficult to imagine because Roshi retired and did nothing throughout Z, while the other Z fighters gained much more power. Sure he took on Freeza's henchmen, but that's about all we saw of him in the battlefield.

If Roshi is being written like this, then I wonder if Toriyama could do the Saiyan saga again, I think he would add Roshi to help out against Nappa and Vegeta.

Yurin upset that Tien didn't train her from Crane School which is going back many years is the best they can come up with? That justifies going after the guy 20 plus years later and getting revenge? That is incredibly petty, immature, and rather stupid logic. You wouldn't agree? A million other reasons could have been given out which could have been better. I don't use the word "lazy" very easily, I'm going to criticize something that does deserve criticism. That specific plotline was incredibly lazy writing. It's my opinion.

Just because he's also training does mean Roshi could surpassed him, or at the very least master the powerful techniques he already had. That and Tien probably tried to be too nice with Roshi while Goku didn't bother. He shot a Kamehameha at him. It isn't difficult to imagine since Roshi mourned in the Cell Saga how he wished he could help again. To me, it is easy to imagine that after that, he tried to get himself in shape again and train. Even if he knew he was a weakling, he wanted to be useful again even if it was taking out mooks.

Toriyama probably could, but by the point Roshi wanted to leave it to the younger generation. However, even in the Saiyan Saga Roshi was frustrated for being too weak to do anything. After years of those feelings, he decided to do something about it. Granted, Toriyama should have done a better job of showing his if he wanted Roshi back in the fray, but looking at how Roshi reacted to falling farther behind and forced to watched those die around him, it is understandable why he said, 'screw it', and trained so he can do anything besides just watching on the sidelines.

Why not? It's ties to Tien whether than a random monster of the week. Why else would someone try to screw him over and it ties back to Tien's past that we haven't seen since Dragon Ball. As Tien said, Yuri was petty and called her out on this. And people have been just as petty in Dragon Ball which the case made fun of.

Criticize is one thing, calling it 'lazy writing' because you didn't like the plot is another. Especially since it such a cop-out line that doesn't mean anything other than 'I didn't like the writing'.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo has been proven wrong before, case in point Freeza. He was also sure against Nappa, until Nappa started to kick their butts.

I said we don't know if he got stronger from the Z-Sword, like you implied earlier.

Actually, that was Sorbet who said that Ginyu's specialty was bringing out all the latent power of a body he takes. This has nothing to do with skill, since you can be skillful and still not have all your power unlocked, case in point Majin Vegeta. Babidi unleashed all of Vegeta's hidden power, making the Majin seal no different that Old Kai's ritual.

And why would a suppressed Piccolo be below Gohan to the point that everyone called him the strongest? And Freeza said he recognized him and marveled at his skill, saying how he can kill all his men. He didn't even give Piccolo a second glance.

No he wasn't. He was compared to Zarbon in rank, not power. Seriously, look at Herms' translation. And even if he was, he trained, which make sense since he was one of the elite and he knew he was fighting a Super Saiyan. It would make no sense for him not to train and Tagoma was noted because he not only got a huge power boost, but he was also tortured for four months and his sanity broke. So it isn't a plot hole, which you are still not using correctly. The only different between Toriyama's script and the movie is that Shisami wasn't part of Freeza's army. Nothing about his power.

He has never been cocky while fighting an opponent that he knows he's weaker than. It's like if he attacked Cell at the Cell Games and be surprised he couldn't do anything. It doesn't make sense.

Sorbet? What episode are you watching? Seriously. Ginyu can't unlock latent power. He only knows how to control Ki, that's why he can use all of Tagoma's power.

Freeza only pointed out he wasn't killing the soldiers despite being strong. Also you are ignoring THAT THEY WERE SUPPRESSED THERE.

He wasn't stated to train.

[Basako]

Tenshinhan wasn't defeated, he just got a blast and then Goku stepped in, so don't say automatically that Roshi is stronger, he is not. They just wanted to show Roshi as a valid fighter for the tournament, because everyone was questioning him, with legit motives, so he got to shine a bit.

Tenshinhan: If they think fans will fall for every service come back, they're wrong. The four arm technique, so what? We want fights, not just them showing off old stuff so gratuitously. Well, I hope we get something else in the next. Tenshinhan trained with Kaio and continued training forever, I could buy him Freezer's level now. Him struggling with Roshi doesn't do much for it. For once they could have left Goku aside and let him handle the situation, it was his dojo and his village after all.

Roshi: I'm fine them telling he got a power up for training in secret. The power up was also implyed in the RoF arc, otherwise he wouldn't have handled those soldiers. So where is he now? I can't see him stronger than Nappa. Tenshinhan shouldn't have had any difficulty stopping him. I also think they should give him flight by now, but is not gonna happen. Is he stronger than Yamcha? Could be, Yamcha has been retired for so long, we know stopping reduces the power, like Gohan.

[namekiansaiyan]

We will see the real Tien next episode and in the tournament. He will almost certainly do good in the tag battle next episode.

[ZombieVito]

We will see the real Tien next episode and in the tournament. He will almost certainly do good in the tag battle next episode.

I still think that Roshi's Thunder Shock Surprise attack played a big role in the fight. That attack was described as lethal and Roshi didn't even want to use it against Goku back in the 21st TB. Goku only escaped it because of the Oozaru transformation. All those years of training could have amplified the attack to great heights.

[ShinTenshin]

Tenshinhan saying that even if Kame Sennin is an ennemy, he's still the good old guy, he clearly doesn't want to injury him. That explain why Tenshinhan refuse to use Kikoho.
And Tenshinhan without his Kikoho is like Goku without Super Saiyan !
Chaozu is unable to use his psychic power against humans so the talisman clearly is a power up !
Still that's crazy that Goku need Chaozu and a monstruous kamehameha to win, his strongest move ;

[HeroR]

He has never been cocky while fighting an opponent that he knows he's weaker than. It's like if he attacked Cell at the Cell Games and be surprised he couldn't do anything. It doesn't make sense.

Sorbet? What episode are you watching? Seriously. Ginyu can't unlock latent power. He only knows how to control Ki, that's why he can use all of Tagoma's power.

Freeza only pointed out he wasn't killing the soldiers despite being strong. Also you are ignoring THAT THEY WERE SUPPRESSED THERE.

He wasn't stated to train.

He has overestimated himself, which is what I am saying.

Looking back, it was Jaco who said that Ginyu unlocked all of Tagoma's power. It's actually similar to what Black did with Goku's body, unless you're trying to tell me that Goku has no control of his power either. This isn't about just controlling ki, he got stronger as noted by everyone. Also, ki control is about being able t suppressed, not used all you power since every elite on the Freeza Force could raise their combat power. Heck, Nappa did it. Also, all of that still doesn't change the fact that Tagoma showed no surprise at Piccolo's attack and said 'this is what I expect'.

And he still took no note of Piccolo, unless you're trying to say Piccolo suppressed himself more than Gohan. I am not ignoring that they're suppressed, I said it makes no sense for Piccolo to vastly lower himself to Gohan's level and Freeze can't sense it since Freeza knew that Goku was holding back power when they fought.

It's called common sense. He knew he was going to fight two legendary Super Saiyans (because they thought they were going to fight Future Trunks too) who killed his master and another who killed Majin Buu. Why in gods green Earth wouldn't he train, especially since he's one of the Freeza's Force best. Do you honestly think he sat on his butt and did nothing for four months, knowing that they were going into a hard battle that no one was sure that they would survived.

[Ki Breaker]

So Roshi full power is strong and capable enough to seriously injure possibly kill tien..
That's a pretty good jump from even rof

[buutenks]

Pretty sure Roshi used this episode on Tien that paralyzing thing which he used vs kid Goku at the 21st budokai.