"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

For those who care Viz had the Super manga Chapter 24 out: https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapt...24/5794?read=1


I think Toyo just managed to make a plot hole for himself: The Supreme Kai said that he regrets becoming a Supreme Kai since if he was still an apprentice he would have the power to heal (don't know why getting a promotion would caused you to lose such power). Gowasu then said if he wasn't a Supreme Kai he couldn't used the Time Rings.... Toyo last chapter you said that Black and Future Zamasu weren't Supreme Kais, which is why their fusion will break within an hour. But both of them can used the Time Rings that only the Supreme Kais can use....so wouldn't that make them Supreme Kais? Toyo, do you remember your own plot points? I mean, even Toriyama usually remembers what he wrote just a chapter ago.

Also, only attendance of the Supreme Kais can heal is just weird and outright unneeded. And the dance around ritual was for awakening ones' hidden power by Old Kai, that was granted to him by an old witch, not a Kai ability. That's why the Supreme Kai was shocked when he saw Old Kai start dancing. Nothing about granted the ability to heal or other things thing from an attendance. And I call BS on Trunks restoring people without realizing it and the fact that these people still needed Senzus. I'm almost certain Toyo pulled a retro retcon here. Also, why does this restore ability has a limitation of restoring one person as strong as Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? I mean, no healing ability in the series had such a limit before now. I mean, you can least handwave this that Trunks isn't a god or something.

While it is perfectly in character for Merged Zamasu to play with his food, I find it really crazy that he's choosing to screw with Goku and Vegeta despite knowing that he has a time limit. At least anime Zamasu had all the time in the world to be a dick and even then he was ready to murder Goku and Vegeta the moment they defused. This dick just decides to keep playing with them. But this is in character for him, so I don't have a problem with this per say. I am just tired of villains always doing this and I didn't like it when anime Merged Zamasu did it.

Finally, on Goku keeping Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan's aura within him so he can fight at 100% all the time. I like the concept since it brings Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan closer to its anime counterpart and cleaned up the messed Toyo made by gimping the form with that 90% energy lost by transforming too many times. Although, it makes Vegeta's training in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber laughable and him getting Super Saiyan God utterly pointless. He could have spent that time learning or discovering how to keep the aura within him like Goku, proving once again that Vegeta practiced on the wrong thing and makes Super Saiyan God Vegeta look like fan service. And when did Goku learned to do this? Was he practicing this when he trained for three years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and why the hell didn't he used this when he tried to solo Merged Zamasu earlier when Vegeta refused to fused? Hell, why didn't he tried this when Black was handing Vegeta his ass? Since Future Zamasu is weaker than Trunks, he could of had Trunks fight him while he did this, probably saving everyone who died since they left.

And, Goku fighting Merged Zamasu evenly: taking hits, hitting Merged Zamasu hard enough to knock him over, and deflecting a giant energy ball from him. I have to say, that's BS. Yes, Goku in the anime melted Merged Zamasu's face by piercing his energy ball and kicked him several times before using the Kaioken, but Goku didn't directly attack and hit Merged Zamasu before that moment and they were never shown as even in a brawl. The moment Merged Zamasu got seriously, Goku said they had no choice but to fused. Here, Merged Zamasu is serious and Goku is fighting him on an almost equal level, although Merged Zamasu still has the advantage, just by holding in Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan's power. Yeah, not buying it, especially since Toyo seems to be treating this like the Kaioken and Goku's body is breaking down. Overall, this comes off as a horrible asspull that in retrospect makes a lot of things look worse.

On a more positive note, I am glad Merged Zamasu is doing something besides shitting bricks. I would have loved to see this in his fight with Vegetto, but at least Toyo seemed to have listened to criticism that Merged Zamasu's move selection was lackluster. Although, could he be a bit more original and not copy Janenba?

And Vegeta called Goku, 'Goku'. That's interesting and I am not sure if it is a typo.

Overall, this chapter wasn't that good. Toyo retcon himself in several places and created a plot hole from what he wrote just a chapter ago. While Trunks' healing ability is out there, Goku's Kaioken like Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan energy hold is the worse thing in the chapter. It makes Goku look like an asshole for not using this sooner. While the same can be said about anime Goku withholding the Kaioken until almost all his limbs were broken, at least that was explained episodes ago of being extremely risky and could leave Goku forever crippled. This has no such foreshadowing and makes Vegeta's gains look like a waste of time. And, it also makes Vegetto even more of a waste and seemed to exists as fan service like Super Saiyan God Vegeta. I mean, he did waste Merged Zamasu's time so he did do something. But...it just comes off as even more of a repeat of Vegetto in the Buu Saga where his existence bought the heroes time, but his overall efforts didn't amount to much since the people he went out of his way to save was murdered by Kid Buu. Actually, maybe it's closer to Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta from GT.

I guess I am more disappointed since even if I am harsh on Toyo, I expected something more than this.

[TheSaiyanGod]

For those who care Viz had the Super manga Chapter 24 out: https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/chapt...24/5794?read=1


I think Toyo just managed to make a plot hole for himself: The Supreme Kai said that he regrets becoming a Supreme Kai since if he was still an apprentice he would have the power to heal (don't know why getting a promotion would caused you to lose such power). Gowasu then said if he wasn't a Supreme Kai he couldn't used the Time Rings.... Toyo last chapter you said that Black and Future Zamasu weren't Supreme Kais, which is why their fusion will break within an hour. But both of them can used the Time Rings that only the Supreme Kais can use....so wouldn't that make them Supreme Kais? Toyo, do you remember your own plot points? I mean, even Toriyama usually remembers what he wrote just a chapter.

I have not read the chapter yet, but I know about that part. Gowasu speaking that only Kaioshins can wear the ring of time does not change the fact that in the manga, Zamasu and Black have never become Kaioshins. It is only a matter of status / tradition / rules. Shin would not be allowed to wear the ring of time, but could break those rules. As he would not want to do this, he would not be able to go to the future.There is no inconsistency

[HeroR]

I have not read the chapter yet, but I know about that part. Gowasu speaking that only Kaioshins can wear the ring of time does not change the fact that in the manga, Zamasu and Black have never become Kaioshins. It is only a matter of status / tradition / rules. Shin would not be allowed to wear the ring of time, but could break those rules. As he would not want to do this, he would not be able to go to the future.There is no inconsistency

I have actually read the chapter. The Supreme Kai said he wished he was still an apprentice since only apprentice Supreme Kais or attendances can heal like Zamasu and Kibito. Gowasu said that if he was still an apprentice he wouldn't be able to used the Time Rings since only the Supreme Kais can used them. This isn't about status / tradition / rules, he outright says on Page 7 that Shin couldn't used the Time Rings if he was still an apprentice, nothing about it being against the rules.

So yes, that is a plot hole.

[Chelentano]

I have not read the chapter yet, but I know about that part. Gowasu speaking that only Kaioshins can wear the ring of time does not change the fact that in the manga, Zamasu and Black have never become Kaioshins. It is only a matter of status / tradition / rules. Shin would not be allowed to wear the ring of time, but could break those rules. As he would not want to do this, he would not be able to go to the future.There is no inconsistency

I have actually read the chapter. The Supreme Kai said he wished he was still an apprentice since only apprentice Supreme Kais or attendances can heal like Zamasu and Kibito. Gowasu said that if he was still an apprentice he wouldn't be able to used the Time Rings since only the Supreme Kais can used them. This isn't about status / tradition / rules, he outright says on Page 7 that Shin couldn't used the Time Rings if he was still an apprentice, nothing about it being against the rules.

So yes, that is a plot hole.

To be fair, nothing indicates that he's not talking about rules. Shin couldn't have used the Time Rings if he was still an apprentice because their strong tradition wouldn't allow it. Maybe that's not the case, but remains a possibility. This doesn't confirm anything.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

While the whole "greater than the sum" thing is true, I also remember (I think it was) Old Kai saying that Vegito was stronger due to their rivalry when they fused. The main point I was trying to make was that, while yes, fusion between two characters regardless of strength should be greater than their sum, their overall strength relative to eachother should still matter. In terms of overall strength, Zamasu is practically an insect compared to Black, and I feel the strength gained from fusing him and Black was still greater than their sum, even discounting magical abilities and immortality. I don't believe Merged Zamasu has been surpassed by Goku anyways yet, though admittedly I'm waiting for the Viz release soon. I just think it makes sense to me that Merged Zamasu can't outright curbstomp people like Vegito can.

It would make no sense for Merged Zamasu not to surpassed Goku since fodder Goku and Vegeta utterly surpassed Super Buu after absorbing the strongest beings in the universe and Vegetto didn't come near his full power. Unless you think the rival boots gives a huge, huge increase, Merged Zamasu should easily surpassed Goku in any form.

Black & Zamasu aren't Goku & Vegeta. Goku & Vegeta were equals, which is why they get a huge increase. But look at Kibitoshin, Kaioshin is a little weaker than the Super Saiyans & Kibito is weaker than the base Saiyans, and Kibitoshin didn't even surpass the SS2 level. The idea that "the biggest the gap, the smallest the boost of the Potara" is even directly noted by Goku, when he thinks about merging with Mr. Satan. He says that merging with him would barely make him stronger, and at worst case scenario could make him weaker. The gap between SSR Black & Future Zamasu is far greater than the gap between Kaioshin & Kibito, so Merged Zamasu shouldn't be that much stronger than SSR Black.

[HeroR]

To be fair, nothing indicates that he's not talking about rules. Shin couldn't have used the Time Rings if he was still an apprentice because their strong tradition wouldn't allow it. Maybe that's not the case, but remains a possibility. This doesn't confirm anything.

You can headcanon that, but the manga doesn't actually say that and I read it several times. It just says that Shin wishes he was an apprentice so he can heal, because for some odd reason being promoted makes you lose your healing ability. Gowaus then says that if he wasn't promoted he couldn't used the Time Rings. Which is odd since he could have become a temp or something like Zamasu and used the Time Rings and makes you wonder what is the official process of becoming a Supreme Kai and why aren't the Time Rings bound to this if trading earrings is enough. It's like Toyo is trying to have his cake and eat it too.

[LightBing]

After reading the chapter. It's was pretty good, definitely one of the best in the whole manga.

About Trunks healing abilities. He didn't forget randomly, it has been foreshadowed in his flashback and with the information provided previously regarding the attendant's unique abilities. The added information that he unconsciously saved Mai and Gowasu is the cherry on top. It's almost perfect.
The only problem is, why didn't Future Kaioshin bother to mention it to Trunks? Remembering the glaring incompetence of our own Kaioshin in the Boo Arc, I actually think it's surprising in-character.

Regarding Goku's power up. It's decently written. Vegeta only knows about it because of the fusion. I went a few chapters back and Goku turned SSJ Blue when fighting Future Zamasu, which wouldn't allow him to try and use 100% of SSJ Blue. He also asked Vegeta if he needed help defeating Black, which Vegeta denied. Goku respects Vegeta, remember when he extended his fight with Pure Boo to - partially - give Vegeta a go.

The power scale of it all. Personally it works. DBZGTKOSDH already gave the Kibitoshin example, Future Zamasu is also an ant compared to the God Tiers, so it's logical that Goku with a decent power up would match up . I won't elaborate more not to pollute the thread with this talk, there's places to have this conversation in detail.

Now it's a waiting game until Absolute Zamasu defuses.

[HeroR]

After reading the chapter. It's was pretty good, definitely one of the best in the whole manga.

About Trunks healing abilities. He didn't forget randomly, it has been foreshadowed in his flashback and with the information provided previously regarding the attendant's unique abilities. The added information that he unconsciously saved Mai and Gowasu is the cherry on top. It's almost perfect.
The only problem is, why didn't Future Kaioshin bother to mention it to Trunks? Remembering the glaring incompetence of our own Kaioshin in the Boo Arc, I actually think it's surprising in-character.

Regarding Goku's power up. It's decently written. Vegeta only knows about it because of the fusion. I went a few chapters back and Goku turned SSJ Blue when fighting Future Zamasu, which wouldn't allow him to try and use 100% of SSJ Blue. He also asked Vegeta if he needed help defeating Black, which Vegeta denied. Goku respects Vegeta, remember when he extended his fight with Pure Boo to - partially - give Vegeta a go.

The power scale of it all. Personally it works. DBZGTKOSDH already gave the Kibitoshin example, Future Zamasu is also an ant compared to the God Tiers, so it's logical that Goku with a decent power up would match up . I won't elaborate more not to pollute the thread with this talk, there's places to have this conversation in detail.

Now it's a waiting game until Absolute Zamasu defuses.

Even if we hand waved this a "Shin sucks at his job" why didn't Trunks asked what the ritual did? Are you honestly going to tell me Trunks through an entire ritual for a day and never bothered to asked what it was for? And why didn't Kibito tell him?

And Goku could have used this to finished Black once he went Rose and trashed Vegeta. Or why didn't he used this when they were taking turns the first time fighting Merged Zamasu?

Kibitoshin never fought so we don't have a clue where he stacks. And Black and Zamasu are stronger than Shin and Kibito, so again, Goku has no business taking hits from a fusion that trashed him before because he's holding energy in.

[Chelentano]

To be fair, nothing indicates that he's not talking about rules. Shin couldn't have used the Time Rings if he was still an apprentice because their strong tradition wouldn't allow it. Maybe that's not the case, but remains a possibility. This doesn't confirm anything.

You can headcanon that, but the manga doesn't actually say that and I read it several times. It just says that Shin wishes he was an apprentice so he can heal, because for some odd reason being promoted makes you lose your healing ability. Gowaus then says that if he wasn't promoted he couldn't used the Time Rings. Which is odd since he could have become a temp or something like Zamasu and used the Time Rings and makes you wonder what is the official process of becoming a Supreme Kai and why aren't the Time Rings bound to this if trading earrings is enough. It's like Toyo is trying to have his cake and eat it too.

Whatever, your saying the same again. What I was trying to say is that the chapter doesn't confirm literally your theory nor the other theory. It's not my headcanon (which I find a ridiculous term) and you don't own an absolute truth.

[LightBing]

Even if we hand waved this a "Shin sucks at his job" why didn't Trunks asked what the ritual did? Are you honestly going to tell me Trunks through an entire ritual for a day and never bothered to asked what it was for? And why didn't Kibito tell him?

And Goku could have used this to finished Black once he went Rose and trashed Vegeta. Or why didn't he used this when they were taking turns the first time fighting Merged Zamasu?

Kibitoshin never fought so we don't have a clue where he stacks. And Black and Zamasu are stronger than Shin and Kibito, so again, Goku has no business taking hits from a fusion that trashed him before because he's holding energy in.

He did..., Trunks was the one that said he was an apprentice Kaioshin in this chapter.

I already explained Goku's reasoning. Read my post again. Once again he went Blue to seal Future Zamasu.

If we don't know how he stacks, then can't use him in your argument either. Still, we have a remote idea of his standing.
It's a fact that God Tier is another World. Future Zamasu at best is SSJ3 level. An hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto is even below SSJ God. The maths checks out. Absolute Zamasu is 99% Goku Black.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I have not read the chapter yet, but I know about that part. Gowasu speaking that only Kaioshins can wear the ring of time does not change the fact that in the manga, Zamasu and Black have never become Kaioshins. It is only a matter of status / tradition / rules. Shin would not be allowed to wear the ring of time, but could break those rules. As he would not want to do this, he would not be able to go to the future.There is no inconsistency

I have actually read the chapter. The Supreme Kai said he wished he was still an apprentice since only apprentice Supreme Kais or attendances can heal like Zamasu and Kibito. Gowasu said that if he was still an apprentice he wouldn't be able to used the Time Rings since only the Supreme Kais can used them. This isn't about status / tradition / rules, he outright says on Page 7 that Shin couldn't used the Time Rings if he was still an apprentice, nothing about it being against the rules.

So yes, that is a plot hole.

Actually, there is nothing that really confirms what you said, since the manga is not explicit in explaining it. Gowasu also said that only Kaioshins could use the Ring of Time, but we know there are other interpretations for this speech. If they are so strict about this rule (Gowasu said that Zamasu could only use after 400 years as Kaioshin), then they may rather be referring to the fact that Shin could not wear the ring because his post would not allow (for gods , These rules may not be broken as well)

[HeroR]

He did..., Trunks was the one that said he was an apprentice Kaioshin in this chapter.

I already explained Goku's reasoning. Read my post again. Once again he went Blue to seal Future Zamasu.

If we don't know how he stacks, then can't use him in your argument either. Still, we have a remote idea of his standing.
It's a fact that God Tier is another World. Future Zamasu at best is SSJ3 level. An hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto is even below SSJ God. The maths checks out. Absolute Zamasu is 99% Goku Black.

I mean why was he becoming an apprentice and why did neither Shin or Kibito bother to tell him he had healing powers. That is kind of useful information and you can't make me believed that both of them just didn't bother.

No, that reasoning doesn't work because Goku could have used this when Black went Rose the first time and was beating up on Vegeta, not their second trip to the future.

Actually, there is nothing that really confirms what you said, since the manga is not explicit in explaining it. Gowasu also said that only Kaioshins could use the Ring of Time, but we know there are other interpretations for this speech. If they are so strict about this rule (Gowasu said that Zamasu could only use after 400 years as Kaioshin), then they may rather be referring to the fact that Shin could not wear the ring because his post would not allow (for gods , These rules may not be broken as well)

And the manga isn't confirming that Gowasu is talking about only rules. You just headcanon it.

Whatever, your saying the same again. What I was trying to say is that the chapter doesn't confirm literally your theory nor the other theory. It's not my headcanon (which I find a ridiculous term) and you don't own an absolute truth.

If the source material doesn't state something as factor or even a theory, it is headcanon. I read what Gowasu said several times and nothing implies he's just talking about rules.

[The gr]

Ok chapter, positive

+Merged zamasu portal ability is fun despite being from janmeba but hey toyotaro took advantage to this and make it entertaining

+the figthing choreography between perfected Goku and mz is amazing,is one of the best for this product because there's no homages and it was fun to look at

+Trunks healing is a cool thing, and it explains how gowasu survived that ki blade through it chest

negative

-merged zamasu taking a long time toying with his food

-perfected goku seems very silly,it would have been better if it was kaioken and it makes Vegeta training in the ROSAT pointless

-trunks healing ability came out of nowhere,I just wish there was a little forshadowingto this

overall this month is a 7,I can't help to feel this month felt like padding but I'm ok with it since is very entertaining

[Chelentano]

Whatever, your saying the same again. What I was trying to say is that the chapter doesn't confirm literally your theory nor the other theory. It's not my headcanon (which I find a ridiculous term) and you don't own an absolute truth.

If the source material doesn't state something as factor or even a theory, it is headcanon. I read what Gowasu said several times and nothing implies he's just talking about rules.

That's precisely the thing here, neither of us is talking about facts, just subjective interpretations of a few sentences. And I'll say it again: neither of us.

[Lord Beerus]

After reading this chapter translated, my opinion of it stays mostly the same as before, but with a few new opinions:

On one hand, the fight choreography was on point and Merged Zamasu's portal abilities and his use of them were fantastic, but fucking hell, the power scaling is officially broken in the manga. And while I like that the manga took the approach of the anime with mastering SSJB through ki control, I just wish there was some kind of indication as to when and how Goku was able to do this. I can only assume that give Vegeta only knew about this by accessing Goku's memories with being fused with him that he taught this to himself, but there was no indication that Goku was teaching himself this new ability up until he faced Merged Zamasu. So I just can't help but feel that it was a major asspull for Goku to now suddenly master the form, and in the process, compete evenly with Merged Zamasu. Plus, it really undercuts the tension of previous events in the Future Trunks arc if Goku knew he could do this but chose not to. Hate to sound harsh but Goku is kind of a piece of shit for this. Because he knew could have ended this arc the second he and Vegeta went to fight Goku Black and Zamasu for the first time, but chose not to. And it makes everything that happened in Chapter 23 all the more infuriatingly stupid and selfish. And it in turn makes the appearance of Vegetto totally redundant and it also serves to make Vegeta's trip in the ROSAT pointless and makes his moment of defeating SSJR Goku Black, while ingeniously interchanging between SSJG and SSJB, utterly meaningless.

It's very interesting to note that that Vegeta comments that you can fight at 100% of the power of Super Saiyan Blue but only for a short while. This would mean that when SSJB Vegeta ate the senzu after getting his ass kicked by SSJ Goku Black, following his first zenkai, he was by all means fighting at 100% of the power of SSJB against SSJ Goku Black, even if it was for a short period, and still lost badly. But in Goku case, because he contain the power of SSJB and fight longer at 100%, he seemingly gets a huge boost in strength from it for some reason and Vegeta didn't. It's all really seems insanely contrived and quite dumb. Although, SSJB Goku holding his own against Merged Zamasu was definitely in the outline because it happens in both the anime and manga. And there is no fucking way in hell you can make sense of that kind of plot-point without killing the power scaling and/or retroactively making the previous events of the arc meaningless, contrived and stupid. Oh man. I can't believe how much a simple plot point like Goku mastering SSJB could create such a ripple effect and retroactively ruin a good chunk of the story in the Future Trunks arc. But I will say that Vegeta learning about Goku mastering SSJB by being fused with Goku was just ingenious.

I do think that Future Trunks healing abilities are neat and fit in well with his training with Kaioshin and the foreshadowing to it was nice. But it also felt like an ability that was just arbitrarily discovered given the extremely fumbled execution of Future Trunks discovering he could heal people. I mean, why the hell did Future Kaioshin no tell him he could heal people? Kaioshin in every timeline is an absolute fool.

It's also a bit sad we got an outright plothole in regards to Goku Black and Zamasu being able to use Time Rings, when they shouldn't be able to. Hey, what can you do? It seemed like Toyotaro write himself into a corner with that one.

All in all, this is a very conflicting chapter for me to take into consideration. I wanna like it a lot. I really do. But I... just can't. It shares the same problems with the anime with it's power scaling, contradictory strength and sudden new abilities with little to no foreshadowing. But it's really all down to what's in the plot outline from Toriyama and how Toyotaro could have spinned this into something entertaining, coherent and consistent. And this chapter unfortunately only achieved the "entertainment" part.

[TheSaiyanGod]

And the manga isn't confirming that Gowasu is talking about only rules. You just headcanon it.

I'm raising assumptions as long as you say this for sure, just to give more negatives to the chapter

[LightBing]

I mean why was he becoming an apprentice and why did neither Shin or Kibito bother to tell him he had healing powers. That is kind of useful information and you can't make me believed that both of them just didn't bother.

No, that reasoning doesn't work because Goku could have used this when Black went Rose the first time and was beating up on Vegeta, not their second trip to the future.

I don't know why they made him an apprentice. Why does it matter? I already said that's it's a problem that they didn't bother telling him about such an upside.

Why doesn't it work? Vegeta said he would handle Black and just told them to stop Zamasu from healing him. Goku trusted him, it's in-character. That's why he turned Blue to go and handle Zamasu. Only afterwards was Vegeta definitely proven to be weaker than Black.

With all due respect I won't continue this conversation. You have every right to criticize the manga and point out it's flaws, but that seems that's all you want to do. You aren't bashing it because, you're being respectful and justifying it, I appreciate you for that.
But, yeah. I'm not in the job of defending the manga from a persecution attorney(if I'm allowed the joke). Carry on.

[Basako]

With the translated version, one more piece of information. Vegeta knows that Goku is stronger from the fusion. That probably means the mastered blue form is very recent, not from when they were training in the RoSaT or before.

I read more than once that Vegeta going to the RoSaT was pointless. This is false, he came out with an strategy that enabled him to defeat Black, he really did. What happened was that they fused, so he couldn't. It would be like saying that Gohan going ultimate was pointless in the Boo arc, it wasn't, he could have won too, although it didn't happen because Boo absorbed him.

[Abra kadabra]

Nobodies calling the Goku's mastered ssb asspull an asspull. I'm shocked at the hypocrisy

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Shin: "I wish I wasn't a Kaioshin so I could have my restoration powers."
Gowasu: "If you weren't a Kaioshin, you wouldn't be able to use the Time Rings and come here in the first place."
Shin: "Nah, I could always kill my Kaioshin & steal his Potara and Time Rings."
Gowasu: "Silly me, just like Zamasu did, right?"

Man, what a plot-hole.