Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SansrivaaL]

So, if Goku only uses SS2 against Gohan, how much does that fuck with the two-base thing the magazine from F seemingly reinforced?

Gohan's still in a slump, I take it that Goku's going as strong as he needs to match up Gohan and the show implying Gohan getting stronger visually by having him surpass Goku's SSJ forms 1 by 1. (hopefully SSJB doesnt fall into it)

[Ki Breaker]

So, if Goku only uses SS2 against Gohan, how much does that fuck with the two-base thing the magazine from F seemingly reinforced?

It shouldn't, it could be that goku is slowly powering up, he is being told to fight to full power, he will go blue and kick Gohan's ass in the episode, and we see gohan unlock the new form either the last part of episode or in the tournament itself..

[ekrolo2]

So, if Goku only uses SS2 against Gohan, how much does that fuck with the two-base thing the magazine from F seemingly reinforced?

Gohan's still in a slump, I take it that Goku's going as strong as he needs to match up Gohan and the show implying Gohan getting stronger visually by having him surpass Goku's SSJ forms 1 by 1. (hopefully SSJB doesnt fall into it)

Here's the problem though. Gohan has Ultimate back which is his old strength level, Goku should be using Saiyan Beyond God to fight him but he's using his regular SS forms.

[SansrivaaL]

So, if Goku only uses SS2 against Gohan, how much does that fuck with the two-base thing the magazine from F seemingly reinforced?

Gohan's still in a slump, I take it that Goku's going as strong as he needs to match up Gohan and the show implying Gohan getting stronger visually by having him surpass Goku's SSJ forms 1 by 1. (hopefully SSJB doesnt fall into it)

Here's the problem though. Gohan has Ultimate back which is his old strength level, Goku should be using Saiyan Beyond God to fight him but he's using his regular SS forms.

Like I said, he's in a slump, he has the power but lacks the heart and technique which Piccolo called him out even hence why Goku's SSJ2 shown in the preview is weaker than Gohan power wise but tech and heart wise far above him, the preview was kinda implying Ultimate was pushing SSJ2 Goku back. I'm actually surprised at how... normal the NEP looks like from the preview, I take it he will go SSJ3 but I dont know about SSJB.

[LowRyder2005]

Ridiculous post as usual coming from a joke poster.

Coming specifically from you and after having the pleasure of seeing how you draw conclusions from data at your disposal, believe me, "joke" is quite the reassuring label.

So, if Goku only uses SS2 against Gohan, how much does that fuck with the two-base thing the magazine from F seemingly reinforced?

I believe it's not related as much as proving the existence of the regular base and the theorized "Saiyan Beyond God" base as two different things (which will hardly happen) as much as reinforcing the idea that the old idea of a straightforward scale in which Goku is as strong as a Super Saiyan God (or anything which eclipses his Z self) is very hard to reconcile. Things appear rather messy.
Now, the Gohan who fought Piccolo was by all means and accounts intended to be inferior to the Ultimate Gohan who fought Buu, at the very least when he was Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2; he should probably be somewhat stronger, since he trained all night (and he's also finally being advertised as being at his all time best), but would he be able to go toe-to-toe with a godly-empowered Goku who is supposedly dozens of times stronger as a Super Saiyan 2?

Regarding the "how can SS2 Goku go toe to toe with Ultimate Gohan", you may want to start considering the possibility Goku may have also gotten stronger in-between the Copy-Vegeta Arc and beyond that. If you really want to put aside the idea that they might be doing some warming up, that is; I doubt Toei would pass on the chance of showcasing SS3 Goku vs. Ultimate Gohan, and we already saw SS2 Goku having issues holding off Gohan as a Super Saiyan 2. I'd personally put my money on the fight ending with SSB Goku one-shotting Gohan, like what happened with SS3/God Goku vs. SS2 Trunks in the manga.

[Hugo Boss]

I don't know where you are getting this from. Provide sources, please. I'm talking about one particular line, which is worded in very clear English. It doesn't make sense for Piccolo to call the power Gohan used against Boo if he has been putting out more power than that all along. Not to mention your interpretation ignores the context of the episode, which is putting Gohan back to shape. It would be incredible that Gohan can get stronger only by studying and researching.

Potential unleashed is the power he used against Boo. It doesn't mean that he's as strong as he was in the Boo arc, just like Super Saiyan being the power that defeated Freeza doesn't make BOG Goku=Namek Goku. Yes, the context of the episode was getting Gohan back into shape. His skills were faded and he couldn't bring out his true power, which was his Potential unleashed state above his Super Saiyan.

Gohan before this episode and during the exhibition match before he got back his bang is stated and shown by Toei's own design art to be Ultimate,
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then there's Gohan being equal to Goku in the same form, so him being below Gotenks is flat out wrong.
All he did this episode was regain his full Potential unleashed state that is above Super Saiyan, which as stated by Piccolo is the power he used against Boo.

You don't seem to realize the contraction in your reasoning. How could Gohan be "ultimate" against Lavenda if Super Saiyan was stated to be a power-up at that point? And from the current episodes, it's implied "ultimate" is stronger than Super Saiyan. So, decide yourself. Is "ultimate" weaker or stronger than Super Saiyan?

By the way, since when Gohan being equal to Goku in Base justifies someone can get stronger by living as a normal person? There is no precedent for that. The only thing I can infer from the story told is that Gohan retrieved his old strength, according to the images below.

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[Marlowe89]

I can infer from the story told is that Gohan retrieved his old strength, according to the images below.

Plus, Piccolo flat-out calls it "original strength" in the episode so we can't just pretend that the dialogue was only referring to some multiplier or potential-fulfillment or whatever. Gohan had to get back his lost strength that wasn't fully regained simply with Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I'm already predicting people saying '' Gohan is Vegite level, '' only by being able to fight Goku SSJ2 (which is much stronger than before), and that's quite relative.
And by the preview, where Goku says he will use all his power, I also predict that they will say that Gohan is SSB level.

I'll anticipate this because the scales of powers will be incoherent

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know what I predict?

I predict that we will get decent to great fights, showings of martial arts skill and choreography, and interesting character interactions that further the hype for what the full Tournament of Power will bring.

Power levels don't factor into any of the above.

[ZombieVito]

I can infer from the story told is that Gohan retrieved his old strength, according to the images below.

Plus, Piccolo flat-out calls it "original strength" in the episode so we can't just pretend that the dialogue was only referring to some multiplier or potential-fulfillment or whatever. Gohan had to get back his lost strength that wasn't fully regained simply with Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2.

Interesting. This should be the final final final nail the coffin to the whole base Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks nonsense right?

Another point to Saiyan beyond God.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I can infer from the story told is that Gohan retrieved his old strength, according to the images below.

Plus, Piccolo flat-out calls it "original strength" in the episode so we can't just pretend that the dialogue was only referring to some multiplier or potential-fulfillment or whatever. Gohan had to get back his lost strength that wasn't fully regained simply with Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2.

Interesting. This should be the final final final nail the coffin to the whole base Goku > SSJ3 Gotenks nonsense right?

Another point to Saiyan beyond God.

Another point in separate Saiyan Beyond God, you mean. I believe in singular Saiyan Beyond God.

Besides that, it could just as easily be the case that Goku's base form is stronger than SS3 Gotenks but weaker than or equal to Ultimate Gohan to necessitate going SS, or maybe he just decides to fight Gohan as a SS like he does Krillin and Toppo, and then goes SS2 to amp things up further.

Maybe Gohan got stronger since he re-unlocked Ultimate, maybe he's learned better tactics.

A whole lot could happen, you know. That, and writers are writing for the entertainment value first and foremost.

[Simere]

You know what I predict?

I predict that we will get decent to great fights, showings of martial arts skill and choreography, and interesting character interactions that further the hype for what the full Tournament of Power will bring.

Power levels don't factor into any of the above.

Maybe for you, but as I've said in the past, "interesting character interactions" aren't compelling without being setup properly. Power levels factor heavily into that.

[TheSaiyanGod]

You know what I predict?

I predict that we will get decent to great fights, showings of martial arts skill and choreography, and interesting character interactions that further the hype for what the full Tournament of Power will bring.

Power levels don't factor into any of the above.

Where did I say that I do not expect a decent fight? My comment was solely related to fighting powers, in a topic ABOUT POWERS OF FIGHT. I think the comments regarding the episode are made on another topic.

Not to mention that the preview itself deceived us in this episode, as if Tien was going to do something. If the fight is with good animation and traits, I will enjoy it. But I will not stop complaining about the fighting powers, because even though they are already quite strange in the anime, it is not something left out. If Gohan reaches the level SSB in 9 hours I will not like it, does not stop me from enjoying the fight

[Doctor.]

So, if Goku only uses SS2 against Gohan, how much does that fuck with the two-base thing the magazine from F seemingly reinforced?

Goku's normal base got stronger from the Boo arc and he still has his other Gohan Boo+ level base. But I think he'll just go through all of his transformations. At worst, he'll be even with Gohan in SS3.

[ekrolo2]

So, if Goku only uses SS2 against Gohan, how much does that fuck with the two-base thing the magazine from F seemingly reinforced?

Goku's normal base got stronger from the Boo arc and he still has his other Gohan Boo+ level base. But I think he'll just go through all of his transformations. At worst, he'll be even with Gohan in SS3.

That'd be a really good way of letting us know how much stronger regular Base is in comparison to the Boo arc. But if Ultimate Gohan randomly starts taking on Blue Goku, shit be fucked in the state of Denmark.

[precita]

I wonder how people will react if Roshi takes out Basil or any of the U6 fighters at the tournament, essentially making him on par with anywhere from SSJ-SSJ2+ type of power. The shit will really hit the fan if that happens.

[ZombieVito]

I wonder how people will react if Roshi takes out Basil or any of the U6 fighters at the tournament, essentially making him on par with anywhere from SSJ-SSJ2+ type of power. The shit will really hit the fan if that happens.

Its a good thing they are not SSJ tier at all.

[emperior]

Wouldn't Vegeta's statement of him and Goku being "near their limit", before training for three years in the ROSAT, support the two base theory?
Basically he knew their normal base couldn't get much stronger (something we know since DBZ) and Vegeta probably thought training for that much time would have been useless (unless they train with a master like Whis).
This would also mean Goku and Vegeta's "normal" base would basically be unchanged from the beginning of Super, which would explain why Trunks as a SSJ2 (which was seen to beat Dabura not long ago and not that easily) was seemingly between Goku's SSJ2 and SSJ3 and would also explain Goku and Gohan sparring as SSJs in episode 75. Gohan was a little stronger because of his training with Piccolo. I would say he is exactly as strong as he was after his Z-Sword training (he was probably as strong as Goku at that point) which would also make sense considering he is now as strong as he used to be against Buu, when he accesses his full potential.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Wouldn't Vegeta's statement of him and Goku being "near their limit", before training for three years in the ROSAT, support the two base theory?
Basically he knew their normal base couldn't get much stronger (something we know since DBZ) and Vegeta probably thought training for that much time would have been useless (unless they train with a master like Whis).
This would also mean Goku and Vegeta's "normal" base would basically be unchanged from the beginning of Super, which would explain why Trunks as a SSJ2 (which was seen to beat Dabura not long ago and not that easily) was seemingly between Goku's SSJ2 and SSJ3 and would also explain Goku and Gohan sparring as SSJs in episode 75. Gohan was a little stronger because of his training with Piccolo. I would say he is exactly as strong as he was after his Z-Sword training (he was probably as strong as Goku at that point) which would also make sense considering he is now as strong as he used to be against Buu, when he accesses his full potential.

Problem: Up until much later on, the story went off the assertion that Goku and Vegeta were still super strong, with this training implied to be their limits after the events of RoF where they had reached enormous heights.

Not to mention that Gohan has been implied to have only improved since RoF, training his body to attempt to reach his original strength despite already approaching his Cell Games power in base form.

With Future Trunks, it's a little harder to swallow, but it's not impossible for him to have reached Goku and Vegeta's level on his own, since the Universe 6/7 Tournament was still working off of the coattails of the super strong Goku and Vegeta in the arc prior, and Cabba matched Vegeta in base form. That, and immediately after the tournament, we have Goku mentioning that EVEN Piccolo could beat his base form after contracting Ki Onset Disorder, the same Piccolo that was stronger than base Gohan after the two trained together following the events of the previous arc.

At the very least, the base Saiyans are at some form of SS from before Super began, with Goku and Vegeta potentially being at the level of forms of Majin Buu.

[emperior]

Wouldn't Vegeta's statement of him and Goku being "near their limit", before training for three years in the ROSAT, support the two base theory?
Basically he knew their normal base couldn't get much stronger (something we know since DBZ) and Vegeta probably thought training for that much time would have been useless (unless they train with a master like Whis).
This would also mean Goku and Vegeta's "normal" base would basically be unchanged from the beginning of Super, which would explain why Trunks as a SSJ2 (which was seen to beat Dabura not long ago and not that easily) was seemingly between Goku's SSJ2 and SSJ3 and would also explain Goku and Gohan sparring as SSJs in episode 75. Gohan was a little stronger because of his training with Piccolo. I would say he is exactly as strong as he was after his Z-Sword training (he was probably as strong as Goku at that point) which would also make sense considering he is now as strong as he used to be against Buu, when he accesses his full potential.

Problem: Up until much later on, the story went off the assertion that Goku and Vegeta were still super strong, with this training implied to be their limits after the events of RoF where they had reached enormous heights.

Not to mention that Gohan has been implied to have only improved since RoF, training his body to attempt to reach his original strength despite already approaching his Cell Games power in base form.

With Future Trunks, it's a little harder to swallow, but it's not impossible for him to have reached Goku and Vegeta's level on his own, since the Universe 6/7 Tournament was still working off of the coattails of the super strong Goku and Vegeta in the arc prior, and Cabba matched Vegeta in base form. That, and immediately after the tournament, we have Goku mentioning that EVEN Piccolo could beat his base form after contracting Ki Onset Disorder, the same Piccolo that was stronger than base Gohan after the two trained together following the events of the previous arc.

At the very least, the base Saiyans are at some form of SS from before Super began, with Goku and Vegeta potentially being at the level of forms of Majin Buu.

When was it ever stated Gohan was near his Cell Games power in base? Trunks just noted how Gohan seemingly hadn't the same confidence and strong look he once had. He basically noticed Gohan retired from martial arts. I don't believe that Gohan was near his Cell Games power in that occasion because:
- He would be suppressing
- Trunks wouldn't notice Gohan as being weaker than before if Gohan's base was that strong. I think he would be able to guess Gohan's full power, and if Gohan's SSJ is 50x his SSJ2 Cell Games self it would be absurdly strong. Remember how Goku and Vegeta barely reached Gohan's level during Buu arc (I remember that Majin Vegeta noted how Goku reached Gohan's old level)

What makes you believe Goku and Vegeta were still in their super powerful base in the U6 tournament?
I believe they already had two bases or else it would make no sense for base Goku to be able to scratch Hit if Vegeta couldn't touch him in his SSB form(which I suppose you believe to be many times stronger than their SSJ, which is still 50x) and we know God powered Goku/Vegeta = SSB when they transform.
Also how would you explain Piccolo being able to put a fight with Frost, which was much stronger than base Cabba, so stronger than Final Form Freezer, who just not too long before had one shot killed Piccolo just by using his 1st form. That would make no sense.
And how would you even explain why Goku had high expectations of Buu, considering by your logic Fat Buu would be useless, as it was never stated he got stronger at all (he was sleeping during RoF) - it was also a tournament with rules, so Buu's immortality wouldn't have been much useful as he could lose by ring out.

About the Goku's ki disorder thing, when did he ever say he would lose to Piccolo with his BASE? I remember him saying such a thing but I don't remember him ever explicitly saying only his base was now weaker than Piccolo. Maybe Goku meant his full power wouldn't have been enough to beat Piccolo at that point? By the way that was mostly a gag so it wouldn't really matter to me.