"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

Pretty much like he had to stop Gero from creating the androids or eliminate Fat Buu right from the start? Honestly, I still don't see what the "issues" within this chapter are supposed to be (bar maybe lack of explanation for the Time Rings business which still doesn't necessarily amount to a "plothole").

Nothing feels planned out here.

I beg to differ. It's pretty evident now that Toyotaro had Goku sidelined for a reason.

[Basako]

I love the mastered SSB conceptually and how it looks when Goku goes for it. Nothing asspull about it, it's perfectly reasonable to be a state that can be mastered and be more efficient the way he does it, by getting the aura inside his body. As well as dangerous and limited in time.

It probably comes directly fromy Toriyama and will be relevant in the next arc. The anime will have to go with the mastered SSBKK form, now I understand the opening.

Not fan of the SSBKK, but it's at least understandable and with some logic in universe. Unlike the Ikari, this is out off all logic, he still has the yellow hair, some blue aura and the power equivalent to a SSB. If the blue aura has something to do with the god blue aura, why didn't he turn SSB? I wouldn't have had a problem with that, it would still be a huge raise, but it would be something I could understand. This was in fact the real big asspull.

[batistabus]

Toei needs to realize it doesn't have the talent of spontaneity that Toriyama has, so it should plan stuff out more like Toyotaro is doing. Sure is a hell of a lot better way to give Trunks some focus instead of some bullshit, unexplained Super Saiyan transformation.

For a moment I thought you were talking when Toriyama introduced SSJ3 in Buu arc.
Or when Goku/Vegeta got SSJ2, when in the previous arc it was established to be connected to Gohan's hidden potential.

SS3 was explained. Goku was able to train in the afterlife where ki usage wasn't an issue, so he was able to push beyond normal mortal means.

SS2 was never suggested to be something only Gohan was capable of. Gohan had the most potential, and was thus able to achieve this transformation in the short amount of time they were given.

Rage is explained because Trunks...was angry, which is something everyone in this series is often. And somehow, it gives him a small amount of god ki...maybe? And it'll never come back...probably.

So Toyo planned out Goku having this mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form with no foreshadowing or explaination as to why Goku didn't used it

Or he can't be bother to explain why Black and Zamasu can used the Time Rings despite not being Supreme Kais

Or Trunks going through a ritual to gave him healing powers yet Shin and Kibito never bothered to tell him or Trunks questioned why he became an attendance.

Goku holding back the information about mastered SSB is like when he held back information about SS3. It wasn't perfected, and he and Vegeta have a rivalry where they like to do things on their own. He didn't use it against Goku Black because his job was to seal Zamasu with the Mafuba, which required a significant amount of ki. Vegeta had one job and Goku had another...they both failed.

It was explained very early on in the arc why they can use the Time Rings despite not being Kaioshin...it's because they are wearing Potara. Why are so many people forgetting this? I have a feeling that merged Zamasu will not defuse, but we'll have that conversation in a month.

Trunks didn't go through the ritual to gain healing powers specifically, he went through the ritual because he was training under the Kaioshin. As to why future Shin didn't tell him when our Shin made the connection right away...I'm not exactly sure. Maybe they were in a rush, maybe he thought Kibito would be sufficient for healing, maybe he didn't think normal humans could have that ability (or that it was unique to Kibito), or maybe our Shin learned about it from the Elder Kaioshin. I suppose this is the most legitimate criticism of the healer Trunks plot point, but I think the reveal is a cool enough surprise to forgive it.

[HeroR]

I love the mastered SSB conceptually and how it looks when Goku goes for it. Nothing asspull about it, it's perfectly reasonable to be a state that can be mastered and be more efficient the way he does it, by getting the aura inside his body. As well as dangerous and limited in time.

It probably comes directly fromy Toriyama and will be relevant in the next arc. The anime will have to go with the mastered SSBKK form, now I understand the opening.

Not fan of the SSBKK, but it's at least understandable and with some logic in universe. Unlike the Ikari, this is out off all logic, he still has the yellow hair, some blue aura and the power equivalent to a SSB. If the blue aura has something to do with the god blue aura, why didn't he turn SSB? I wouldn't have had a problem with that, it would still be a huge raise, but it would be something I could understand. This was in fact the real big asspull.

The concept is fine. The execution and lack of foreshadows is what makes it an AssPull. Along with keeping ki inside yourself shouldn't cause someone's power to jump line that since not even the original Mastered Super Saiyan worked like that. And having a dangerous limit makes even less sense.

I doubt it comes from the outline since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan didn't worked like this in Resurrection 'F' and Toyo was the one who gave this form all these weird limits. If anything, it's Toyo cleaning up how own mess and trying to align Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan with the anime or maybe Resurrection 'F'.

Super Saiyan Rage is no more of an AssPull than Super Saiyan 3, which we still don't know how Goku got it. And transformations from anger is hardly new in the series. So it really isn't an AssPull. At least no more than Super Saiyan 1 and 2 which were both anger base. Also, just because it has a blue aura means it's God ki. In fact, no one in the show called it a God form. Only a Trunks' Rage.

Toei needs to realize it doesn't have the talent of spontaneity that Toriyama has, so it should plan stuff out more like Toyotaro is doing. Sure is a hell of a lot better way to give Trunks some focus instead of some bullshit, unexplained Super Saiyan transformation.

For a moment I thought you were talking when Toriyama introduced SSJ3 in Buu arc.
Or when Goku/Vegeta got SSJ2, when in the previous arc it was established to be connected to Gohan's hidden potential.

SS3 was explained. Goku was able to train in the afterlife where ki usage wasn't an issue, so he was able to push beyond normal mortal means.

SS2 was never suggested to be something only Gohan was capable of. Gohan had the most potential, and was thus able to achieve this transformation in the short amount of time they were given.

Rage is explained because Trunks...was angry, which is something everyone in this series is often. And somehow, it gives him a small amount of god ki...maybe? And it'll never come back...probably.

So Toyo planned out Goku having this mastered Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form with no foreshadowing or explaination as to why Goku didn't used it

Or he can't be bother to explain why Black and Zamasu can used the Time Rings despite not being Supreme Kais

Or Trunks going through a ritual to gave him healing powers yet Shin and Kibito never bothered to tell him or Trunks questioned why he became an attendance.

Goku holding back the information about mastered SSB is like when he held back information about SS3. It wasn't perfected, and he and Vegeta have a rivalry where they like to do things on their own. He didn't use it against Goku Black because his job was to seal Zamasu with the Mafuba, which required a significant amount of ki. Vegeta had one job and Goku had another...they both failed.

It was explained very early on in the arc why they can use the Time Rings despite not being Kaioshin...it's because they are wearing Potara. Why are so many people forgetting this? I have a feeling that merged Zamasu will not defuse, but we'll have that conversation in a month.

Trunks didn't go through the ritual to gain healing powers specifically, he went through the ritual because he was training under the Kaioshin. As to why future Shin didn't tell him when our Shin made the connection right away...I'm not exactly sure. Maybe they were in a rush, maybe he thought Kibito would be sufficient for healing, maybe he didn't think normal humans could have that ability (or that it was unique to Kibito), or maybe our Shin learned about it from the Elder Kaioshin. I suppose this is the most legitimate criticism of the healer Trunks plot point, but I think the reveal is a cool enough surprise to forgive it.

The explaination you gave for Super Saiyan 3 was never stated in the manga. And how was Gotenks able to get it if it's connected to ki usages.

This is worse than Super Saiyan 3. Goku excuse was to save his remaining time. Here, he literally could have ended Black quickly but didn't. Goku doesn't even explain his mindset unlike the Buu Saga. And I am talking about the first time they fought, not the return trip.

Read the chapter. Gowasu said only Supreme Kais can used the Time Rings and Shin wouldn't be able to used them if he wasn't promoted. Nothing about earrings or permission. So it's a plot hole until Toyo clears this up or Merged Zamasu doesn't defuse.

The ritual made him an attendance and gave him the ability to heal like Kibito. That was said in this chapter.

[HeroR]

Pretty much like he had to stop Gero from creating the androids or eliminate Fat Buu right from the start? Honestly, I still don't see what the "issues" within this chapter are supposed to be (bar maybe lack of explanation for the Time Rings business which still doesn't necessarily amount to a "plothole").

Nothing feels planned out here.

I beg to differ. It's pretty evident now that Toyotaro had Goku sidelined for a reason.

He could had Goku used this form last chapter when he was trying to sololy Merged Zamasu and losing. It makes no sense for him to hide it at that moment.

And that Time Ring is a plot hole since Toyo made it a point that neither Zamasu or Black are Supreme Kais. So he should explain how they can used the Time Rings since those are limited to the Supreme Kais too.

Finally, why didn't the Supreme Kai nor Kibito tell Trunks he had healing powers? I know the meme is 'Shin sucks at his job', but Kibito should have at least tod him or Trunks ask why he needed to become an attendant.

This doesn't feel Plan. If it was, it was poorly done.

[LightBing]

Toei needs to realize it doesn't have the talent of spontaneity that Toriyama has, so it should plan stuff out more like Toyotaro is doing. Sure is a hell of a lot better way to give Trunks some focus instead of some bullshit, unexplained Super Saiyan transformation.

For a moment I thought you were talking when Toriyama introduced SSJ3 in Buu arc.
Or when Goku/Vegeta got SSJ2, when in the previous arc it was established to be connected to Gohan's hidden potential.

It's not the same thing.

SSJ3 came out of the blue but was later elaborated upon and given context within the Super Saiyan "Tree". If it was satisfactory or not doesn't matter.
SSJ Rage(or whatever it's called), there's nothing. Characters literally ignored it when it appeared, while it was being used and after the fight was over.

[HeroR]

SSJ3 came out of the blue but was later elaborated upon and given context within the Super Saiyan "Tree". If it was satisfactory or not doesn't matter.
SSJ Rage(or whatever it's called), there's nothing. Characters literally ignored it when it appeared, while it was being used and after the fight was over.

It wasn't elaborated on. All we got 'it's the next level of Super Saiyan that I just discovered'. That an AssPull since st least Super Saiyan 2 was kind of the goal of the Celk Games.

Super Saiyan Rage doesn't fall into AssPull because we've already have two Rage base transformations on this series. Shin and Gowasu even called it Trunks' rage.

[LowRyder2005]

I love the mastered SSB conceptually and how it looks when Goku goes for it. Nothing asspull about it, it's perfectly reasonable to be a state that can be mastered and be more efficient the way he does it, by getting the aura inside his body. As well as dangerous and limited in time.

It probably comes directly fromy Toriyama and will be relevant in the next arc. The anime will have to go with the mastered SSBKK form, now I understand the opening.

Not fan of the SSBKK, but it's at least understandable and with some logic in universe. Unlike the Ikari, this is out off all logic, he still has the yellow hair, some blue aura and the power equivalent to a SSB. If the blue aura has something to do with the god blue aura, why didn't he turn SSB? I wouldn't have had a problem with that, it would still be a huge raise, but it would be something I could understand. This was in fact the real big asspull.

The concept is fine. The execution and lack of foreshadows is what makes it an AssPull. Along with keeping ki inside yourself shouldn't cause someone's power to jump line that since not even the original Mastered Super Saiyan worked like that. And having a dangerous limit makes even less sense.

I doubt it comes from the outline since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan didn't worked like this in Resurrection 'F' and Toyo was the one who gave this form all these weird limits. If anything, it's Toyo cleaning up how own mess and trying to align Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan with the anime or maybe Resurrection 'F'.

Super Saiyan Rage is no more of an AssPull than Super Saiyan 3, which we still don't know how Goku got it. And transformations from anger is hardly new in the series. So it really isn't an AssPull. At least no more than Super Saiyan 1 and 2 which were both anger base. Also, just because it has a blue aura means it's God ki. In fact, no one in the show called it a God form. Only a Trunks' Rage.

There's not really any valid reason I can think of on why it shouldn't work in-universe, it's as good an explanation as any. Besides, keeping the ki from leaking also the basis of Whis' training, which supposedly should help someone powering up. I agree it's probably not in the supposedly scarce outline for very obvious reasons.

Regarding Super Saiyan Ikari... well, it's again something which could perfectly work in-universe, but lack of exposition is probably the root of the problem. If they had someone enlighting people on the actual conditions perhaps it wouldn't have rubbed many viewers the wrong way.
A simple statement of "he got mad enough" can't reasonably cut it for most because historically, well, everyone and their mother in the series had arguably experienced comparable rage and they never ended up achieving such an uncomparably high boost in power. In comparison, Goku's or Vegeta's godly aura suddenly arriving to Trunks via osmosis would have made people content. But even a simple "Trunks's enormous strenght helped him" would have sufficed for many.

He could had Goku used this form last chapter when he was trying to sololy Merged Zamasu and losing. It makes no sense for him to hide it at that moment.

And that Time Ring is a plot hole since Toyo made it a point that neither Zamasu or Black are Supreme Kais. So he should explain how they can used the Time Rings since those are limited to the Supreme Kais too.

Finally, why didn't the Supreme Kai nor Kibito tell Trunks he had healing powers? I know the meme is 'Shin sucks at his job', but Kibito should have at least tod him or Trunks ask why he needed to become an attendant.

This doesn't feel Plan. If it was, it was poorly done.

When? Basically every time Goku is fighting Zamas something happens and his full power is locked out. If it's when he's fighting him as a SSG he's doing that because he already powered down from Blue, and he can't transform back into the form without losing the majority of his power, per what was established in the Universe 6 Arc. If you re-read the chapter knowing that Goku could've transformed into that and with the very specific manga indications about the way Blue works, it's very clear that everything was basically built up so that Goku couldn't find the time to fight at full power or eat a Senzu.

The Time Ring is not necessarily a "plothole" in the way you're intending it, people have already given you valid (and also very simple) explanations above. The finer details are out of the equation and if anything it's not explained in full, but again not necessarily a "plothole" - which by definition is an almost "unreparable" tear in the narrative.

It wasn't elaborated on. All we got 'it's the next level of Super Saiyan that I just discovered'. That an AssPull since st least Super Saiyan 2 was kind of the goal of the Celk Games.

Super Saiyan 3 was intended to be the product of Goku's training in the Other World after years and years after unlocking Super Saiyan 2 already; there was a clear sense of progression for anyone who had read the series that far. Ikari in comparison is the very definition of "plot device".

I don't know how anyone would compare the two and especially talk about Super Saiyan 3 as something fitting less than Ikari in the overall narrative of all things, quite frankly.

[Basako]

The concept is fine. The execution and lack of foreshadows is what makes it an AssPull. Along with keeping ki inside yourself shouldn't cause someone's power to jump line that since not even the original Mastered Super Saiyan worked like that. And having a dangerous limit makes even less sense.

I doubt it comes from the outline since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan didn't worked like this in Resurrection 'F' and Toyo was the one who gave this form all these weird limits. If anything, it's Toyo cleaning up how own mess and trying to align Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan with the anime or maybe Resurrection 'F'.

Super Saiyan Rage is no more of an AssPull than Super Saiyan 3, which we still don't know how Goku got it. And transformations from anger is hardly new in the series. So it really isn't an AssPull. At least no more than Super Saiyan 1 and 2 which were both anger base. Also, just because it has a blue aura means it's God ki. In fact, no one in the show called it a God form. Only a Trunks' Rage.

The execution is fine, Goku has been training it too, like the meditation scene we saw with Whis, and Vegeta understood Goku had it because the fusion. But Goku hasn't mastered it yet, he is having a very hard time and in one moment he almost loses it. Having a dangerous limit and with time make a lot of sense, as he is integrating more power than what his body seem able to handle for now.

The SS3 is not an asspull, there is a 7 year gap of Goku training in the Otherworld that give credibility to this achievement.

I didn't complain about the relationship to rage of the Ikari, that's fine, rage has been a valid trigger through all DB. But I complained about the lack of logic of everything else.

Toei messed it up by giving Goku a x10KK. If at least they had given him the x2. He didn't even defeat Hit with a x10SSBKK, how strong does that make Hit? And Goku? If Goku SSG was a 6 and Beerus was a 10, where is x10SSBKK Goku? I wasn't a fan of how the Manga explained Vegeta losing to Hit with the 10 times less power, but, in the end, it was no more than a flaw of the form that would give them some room for improvement. The anime had more problems.

[batistabus]

The explaination you gave for Super Saiyan 3 was never stated in the manga. And how was Gotenks able to get it if it's connected to ki usages.

This is worse than Super Saiyan 3. Goku excuse was to save his remaining time. Here, he literally could have ended Black quickly but didn't. Goku doesn't even explain his mindset unlike the Buu Saga. And I am talking about the first time they fought, not the return trip.

Read the chapter. Gowasu said only Supreme Kais can used the Time Rings and Shin wouldn't be able to used them if he wasn't promoted. Nothing about earrings or permission. So it's a plot hole until Toyo clears this up or Merged Zamasu doesn't defuse.

The ritual made him an attendance and gave him the ability to heal like Kibito. That was said in this chapter.

Chapter 282:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Gotenks was able to obtain the form because of the power of fusion, which was also shortened. Do you seriously doubt it's related to ki usage?

The first time around, we're not sure if Goku had conceived this technique. Even if he did, it was Vegeta's "turn" to fight the villain. You may not like it, but that is how these two function. Goku could not jump in and defeat Black once the situation looked dire because he was losing to Zamasu's "Kaioshin apprentice" techniques.

Gowasu "promotes" Zamasu by handing him a Potara. Zamasu does not actually become a Kaioshin in this moment, he's just demonstrating the importance of the relics. In the anime, Goku Black wears the time ring, but nobody thinks that he is a Kaioshin. He is able to do this because he is wearing a Potara. Again, Gowasu could be mistaken in thinking that using these objects does not actually make them gods, but for now, that is what he believes and that is what is explained. Only Kaioshin are meant to use Time Rings, just like only Kaioshin are meant to wear the Potara. We know that humans can use the Potara as well, but that doesn't make Vegetto a god (in the original DB manga, it's more complicated in Super because of god ki). As of right now, this isn't a plot hole in the anime or manga.

Yes, the ritual gives him that ability. However, Kaioshin did not make Trunks his disciple for the specific purpose of healing, he did it because it was the proper ceremony to do for someone training under a Kaioshin. The healing ability is a side-effect of becoming a Kaioshin attendant. Yes, he is able to heal, and it is strange that it was not explained to Trunks, but I was just making a distinction.

[Sandubadear]

I can't read the Viz translation due to region lock, so does Vegeta really say this or is it a mistranslation?

[batistabus]

I can't read the Viz translation due to region lock, so does Vegeta really say this or is it a mistranslation?

That is mostly correct, but the grammar makes it confusing. In your example, it sounds like Vegeta is saying that Zamasu is Super Saiyan Blue. However, he is saying that out of Goku and himself, the one who can use SSB to contend with Zamasu is Goku.

[Sandubadear]

I can't read the Viz translation due to region lock, so does Vegeta really say this or is it a mistranslation?

it sounds like Vegeta is saying that Zamasu is Super Saiyan Blue. However, he is saying that out of Goku and himself, the one who can use SSB to contend with Zamasu is Goku.

That's what I thought too.

[Hellspawn28]

I guess if Future Trunks could become a Kaio if they have eat the fruit from the Tree that the other Kaios are born from.

[Miracles]

First of all, Blue full power is not pulled out of nowhere. The concept first being in the anime when Whis is training Goku and Vegeta about not letting their Ki "spill out." Whis talks about raising that Ki "within themselves." Then the aura around them vanishes. This was also demonstrated when Goku and Vegeta were in the mystical fog and couldn't move until they stopped their Ki from spilling out. Goku does the same with Blue in this chapter. Goku harnesses all of his Ki into his body, not letting any of that power go to waste. He is able to use Blue at full power constantly now.

[FortuneSSJ]

Chapter 282:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Gotenks was able to obtain the form because of the power of fusion, which was also shortened. Do you seriously doubt it's related to ki usage?

That panel tell us nothing about how a Saiyan can achieve SSJ3. Only that uses too much energy. How did Goku unlocked that form? By being angrier? Screaming more than a SSJ2?!
"Ki usage" is vague. I can apply that to anything that uses Ki in this franchise.

[Miracles]

Chapter 282:
[spoiler][/spoiler]
Gotenks was able to obtain the form because of the power of fusion, which was also shortened. Do you seriously doubt it's related to ki usage?

That panel tell us nothing about how a Saiyan can achieve SSJ3. Only that uses too much energy. How did Goku unlocked that form? By being angrier? Screaming more than a SSJ2?!
"Ki usage" is vague. I can apply that to anything that uses Ki in this franchise.

It's obvious Kakarot trained for SSJ3 in the afterlife. Same with SSJ2.

[Lord Beerus]

First of all, Blue full power is not pulled out of nowhere. The concept first being in the anime when Whis is training Goku and Vegeta about not letting their Ki "spill out." Whis talks about raising that Ki "within themselves." Then the aura around them vanishes. This was also demonstrated when Goku and Vegeta were in the mystical fog and couldn't move until they stopped their Ki from spilling out. Gokud does the same with Blue. Goku harnesses all of his Ki into his body not letting any of that power go to waste and is able to use Blue at full power constantly now.

The problem is that the manga provides no set up of when Goku learned to prevent ki leaking out of his body while as a SSJB. It's just suddenly brought up that Goku can mastered the form and can contain the 100% power of SSJB.

[Miracles]

First of all, Blue full power is not pulled out of nowhere. The concept first being in the anime when Whis is training Goku and Vegeta about not letting their Ki "spill out." Whis talks about raising that Ki "within themselves." Then the aura around them vanishes. This was also demonstrated when Goku and Vegeta were in the mystical fog and couldn't move until they stopped their Ki from spilling out. Gokud does the same with Blue. Goku harnesses all of his Ki into his body not letting any of that power go to waste and is able to use Blue at full power constantly now.

The problem is that the manga provides no set up of when Goku learned to prevent ki leaking out of his body while as a SSJB. It's just suddenly brought up that Goku can mastered the form and can contain the 100% power of SSJB.

Don't need a set up when we already know that energy consumption is what needs to be overcome to master Blue.

[ekrolo2]

First of all, Blue full power is not pulled out of nowhere. The concept first being in the anime when Whis is training Goku and Vegeta about not letting their Ki "spill out." Whis talks about raising that Ki "within themselves." Then the aura around them vanishes. This was also demonstrated when Goku and Vegeta were in the mystical fog and couldn't move until they stopped their Ki from spilling out. Gokud does the same with Blue. Goku harnesses all of his Ki into his body not letting any of that power go to waste and is able to use Blue at full power constantly now.

The problem is that the manga provides no set up of when Goku learned to prevent ki leaking out of his body while as a SSJB. It's just suddenly brought up that Goku can mastered the form and can contain the 100% power of SSJB.

Don't need a set up when we already know that emery consumption is what needs to be overcome to master Blue.

We know the principle behind it, what we don't know is what makes Goku realize how to make that principle a reality. What the hell did his fusion with Vegeta teach him about Blue that he didn't already know from before?