"Dragon Ball Super (Manga)" Official Discussion Thread

[Kanassa]

We know the principle behind it, what we don't know is what makes Goku realize how to make that principle a reality. What the hell did his fusion with Vegeta teach him about Blue that he didn't already know from before?

Pretty sure Goku knew this beforehand, the only one to learn anything from the Fusion was Vegeta learning that Goku could do this.

[ekrolo2]

We know the principle behind it, what we don't know is what makes Goku realize how to make that principle a reality. What the hell did his fusion with Vegeta teach him about Blue that he didn't already know from before?

Pretty sure Goku knew this beforehand, the only one to learn anything from the Fusion was Vegeta learning that Goku could do this.

Oookkkaayyyy and he doesn't do this pre-fusion because?

[Lord Beerus]

We know the principle behind it, what we don't know is what makes Goku realize how to make that principle a reality. What the hell did his fusion with Vegeta teach him about Blue that he didn't already know from before?

Pretty sure Goku knew this beforehand, the only one to learn anything from the Fusion was Vegeta learning that Goku could do this.

Oookkkaayyyy and he doesn't do this pre-fusion because?

That is my major gripe with this whole thing. It's seem so contrived that all of sudden now it's discovered that Goku had mastered SSJB. It's such a vital plot point because Goku could have potentially ended this arc from the beginning, but seemed to choose not to. It's really no better than Future Trunks unknown rage/anger based SSJ transformation in the anime because the lack of build up to such a pivotal moment makes that moment all the more jarring and sudden.

[Kanassa]

We know the principle behind it, what we don't know is what makes Goku realize how to make that principle a reality. What the hell did his fusion with Vegeta teach him about Blue that he didn't already know from before?

Pretty sure Goku knew this beforehand, the only one to learn anything from the Fusion was Vegeta learning that Goku could do this.

Oookkkaayyyy and he doesn't do this pre-fusion because?

Because he's an asshole and Toyo probably only just thought it up?... At least he's mimicking Tori's style well.

[Jinzoningen MULE]

Pretty sure Goku knew this beforehand, the only one to learn anything from the Fusion was Vegeta learning that Goku could do this.

Oookkkaayyyy and he doesn't do this pre-fusion because?

That is my major gripe with this whole thing. It's seem so contrived that all of sudden now it's discovered that Goku had mastered SSJB. It's such a vital plot point because Goku could have potentially ended this arc from the beginning, but seemed to choose not to. It's really no better than Future Trunks unknown rage/anger based SSJ transformation in the anime because the lack of build up to such a pivotal moment makes that moment all the more jarring and sudden.

It was explained in-chapter why he waited so long. It was too dangerous to use unless it's an absolute last-resort, and the repercussions are clear as the fight between Goku and Zamasu progresses near the end of the chapter. It will destroy his body.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Gowasu did not say anything new in this chapter. Only Kaioshins can use Time Ring.
We just do not know if he was talking about some rule imposed by the gods, or if he actually had some blockage for someone other than Kaioshin (something never said throughout the manga).
Can not consider incoherence

First of all, Blue full power is not pulled out of nowhere. The concept first being in the anime when Whis is training Goku and Vegeta about not letting their Ki "spill out." Whis talks about raising that Ki "within themselves." Then the aura around them vanishes. This was also demonstrated when Goku and Vegeta were in the mystical fog and couldn't move until they stopped their Ki from spilling out. Gokud does the same with Blue. Goku harnesses all of his Ki into his body not letting any of that power go to waste and is able to use Blue at full power constantly now.

The problem is that the manga provides no set up of when Goku learned to prevent ki leaking out of his body while as a SSJB. It's just suddenly brought up that Goku can mastered the form and can contain the 100% power of SSJB.

This was something that Goku already had prior knowledge, needed to just try. But it was risky, and his body could break, so it was not so viable as well.

He saw another way to dominate the SSB.

[batistabus]

We know the principle behind it, what we don't know is what makes Goku realize how to make that principle a reality. What the hell did his fusion with Vegeta teach him about Blue that he didn't already know from before?

Pretty sure Goku knew this beforehand, the only one to learn anything from the Fusion was Vegeta learning that Goku could do this.

Oookkkaayyyy and he doesn't do this pre-fusion because?

-Goku and Vegeta come to the future.
-It is decided that Vegeta will be the one to fight Goku Black, because Goku and Vegeta don't like to fight together.
-Vegeta is destroying Goku Black. Goku doesn't need to intervene.
-Zamasu saves Black.
-Black is healed, becomes stronger, becomes Rosé.
-Vegeta still believes he can defeat Black, so he tells Goku to fight Zamasu.
-Vegeta is unable to defeat Black, Goku is unable to defeat Zamasu.
-Trunks uses the Taiyoken, and they escape with the help of Mai.

He doesn't do it because the situation gets out of hand and he is unable. Also, he is not confident in his ability to use it. How's that?

[ekrolo2]

Pretty sure Goku knew this beforehand, the only one to learn anything from the Fusion was Vegeta learning that Goku could do this.

Oookkkaayyyy and he doesn't do this pre-fusion because?

-Goku and Vegeta come to the future.
-It is decided that Vegeta will be the one to fight Goku Black, because Goku and Vegeta don't like to fight together.
-Vegeta is destroying Goku Black. Goku doesn't need to intervene.
-Zamasu saves Black.
-Black is healed, becomes stronger, becomes Rosé.
-Vegeta still believes he can defeat Black, so he tells Goku to fight Zamasu.
-Vegeta is unable to defeat Black, Goku is unable to defeat Zamasu.
-Trunks uses the Taiyoken, and they escape with the help of Mai.

He doesn't do it because the situation gets out of hand and he is unable. Also, he is not confident in his ability to use it. How's that?

I meant the second time, what exactly prevents him from simply using this ability then?

[Miracles]

The problem is that the manga provides no set up of when Goku learned to prevent ki leaking out of his body while as a SSJB. It's just suddenly brought up that Goku can mastered the form and can contain the 100% power of SSJB.

Don't need a set up when we already know that emery consumption is what needs to be overcome to master Blue.

We know the principle behind it, what we don't know is what makes Goku realize how to make that principle a reality. What the hell did his fusion with Vegeta teach him about Blue that he didn't already know from before?

The fusion with Goku didn't teach Vegeta anything new.
It made Vegeta realize That Goku has overcome the problem.
He could fully utilize Blue's full power by not letting ki spill out through control.

[ekrolo2]

Don't need a set up when we already know that emery consumption is what needs to be overcome to master Blue.

We know the principle behind it, what we don't know is what makes Goku realize how to make that principle a reality. What the hell did his fusion with Vegeta teach him about Blue that he didn't already know from before?

The fusion with Goku didn't teach Vegeta anything new.
It made Vegeta realize That Goku has overcome the problem.
He could fully utilize Blue's full power by not letting ki spill out through control.

Okay, when and how did Goku realize this and why doesn't he bother to tell Vegeta about it? Surely that's a lot better for Vegeta to practice over this switching between God and Blue thing? Surely Vegeta could iron out the kinks in 6 months time.

Unless we're going to apply anime logic and assume Goku pulled this out of his ass when he trained with the Mafuba the same way he gets over ten times stronger in one night practicing it.

[Miracles]

We know the principle behind it, what we don't know is what makes Goku realize how to make that principle a reality. What the hell did his fusion with Vegeta teach him about Blue that he didn't already know from before?

The fusion with Goku didn't teach Vegeta anything new.
It made Vegeta realize That Goku has overcome the problem.
He could fully utilize Blue's full power by not letting ki spill out through control.

Okay, when and how did Goku realize this and why doesn't he bother to tell Vegeta about it? Surely that's a lot better for Vegeta to practice over this switching between God and Blue thing? Surely Vegeta could iron out the kinks in 6 months time.

Unless we're going to apply anime logic and assume Goku pulled this out of his ass when he trained with the Mafuba the same way he gets over ten times stronger in one night practicing it.

Overcoming Blue's energy consumption has always been a goal for both Goku and Vegeta. It's not something that they all of a sudden decided to accomplish. Why would Goku tell Vegeta when they are in competition anyway? That's out of character and contradictory to story. Vegeta should of told Kakarot about being able to use Blue in short bursts successively while in Red but didn't.

[Lord Beerus]

Oookkkaayyyy and he doesn't do this pre-fusion because?

That is my major gripe with this whole thing. It's seem so contrived that all of sudden now it's discovered that Goku had mastered SSJB. It's such a vital plot point because Goku could have potentially ended this arc from the beginning, but seemed to choose not to. It's really no better than Future Trunks unknown rage/anger based SSJ transformation in the anime because the lack of build up to such a pivotal moment makes that moment all the more jarring and sudden.

It was explained in-chapter why he waited so long. It was too dangerous to use unless it's an absolute last-resort, and the repercussions are clear as the fight between Goku and Zamasu progresses near the end of the chapter. It will destroy his body.

I would have a much easier time accepting that if Goku and Vegeta didn't initially turn down fusing together and decided to take turns fighting Merged Zamasu. I mean, they were already getting their arses handed to them by Merged Zamasu, and declined what seemed like the only option for defeating Merged Zamasu by fusing with the Potara earrings, so you'd think Goku would take the gamble contain the power of SSJB and fight Merged Zamasu. Or even prior to that kill SSJR Goku Black. I mean, Future Trunks at that stage could potentially still heal Goku, so even if his body gets severely wrecked as result of it, Future Trunks could heal it.

[batistabus]

I meant the second time, what exactly prevents him from simply using this ability then?

Goku needs to perform the Mafuba, which is the only way to defeat the immortal Zamasu. After using it, he is too drained of ki to remain effective as SSB.

[ekrolo2]

I meant the second time, what exactly prevents him from simply using this ability then?

Goku needs to perform the Mafuba, which is the only way to defeat the immortal Zamasu. After using it, he is too drained of ki to remain effective as SSB.

Okay, why doesn't he tell Vegeta about his idea to improve Blue? They're trying to kill the bad guys this time, not mess around so there's no reason for him not to tell Vegeta about the ki leaking thing so he can practice with it and get a lot stronger inside the ROSAT.

The fusion with Goku didn't teach Vegeta anything new.
It made Vegeta realize That Goku has overcome the problem.
He could fully utilize Blue's full power by not letting ki spill out through control.

Okay, when and how did Goku realize this and why doesn't he bother to tell Vegeta about it? Surely that's a lot better for Vegeta to practice over this switching between God and Blue thing? Surely Vegeta could iron out the kinks in 6 months time.

Unless we're going to apply anime logic and assume Goku pulled this out of his ass when he trained with the Mafuba the same way he gets over ten times stronger in one night practicing it.

Overcoming Blue's energy consumption has always been a goal for both Goku and Vegeta. It's not something that they all of a sudden decided to accomplish. Why would Goku tell Vegeta when they are in competition anyway? That's out of character and contradictory to story. Vegeta should of told Kakarot about being able to use Blue in short bursts successively while in Red but didn't.

They're also trying to help Trunk for the second trip back after their current powers failed to make a difference, not just jerk themselves off to see who's dick is bigger now. Goku even apologizes to leaving Trunks behind to Vegeta after the guy chews him out over it. Telling him about his hypothetical way of improving Blue would be a sound way to help everyone out of this Zamasu crisis.

Vegeta also knows about the Mafuba during this conversation as the means to sealing Zamasu, a technique Goku has to focus on for them to win. Telling him about the flipping thing at that point wouldn't mean anything since Goku needs to focus on the Mafuba. Vegeta, meanwhile, is going to train so he can kill Black, something a mastered Blue would greatly help him with and Goku doesn't tell him fucking anything about it even though they're trying to win this time around.

[Miracles]

I meant the second time, what exactly prevents him from simply using this ability then?

Goku needs to perform the Mafuba, which is the only way to defeat the immortal Zamasu. After using it, he is too drained of ki to remain effective as SSB.

Okay, why doesn't he tell Vegeta about his idea to improve Blue? They're trying to kill the bad guys this time, not mess around so there's no reason for him not to tell Vegeta about the ki leaking thing so he can practice with it and get a lot stronger inside the ROSAT.

Okay, when and how did Goku realize this and why doesn't he bother to tell Vegeta about it? Surely that's a lot better for Vegeta to practice over this switching between God and Blue thing? Surely Vegeta could iron out the kinks in 6 months time.

Unless we're going to apply anime logic and assume Goku pulled this out of his ass when he trained with the Mafuba the same way he gets over ten times stronger in one night practicing it.

Overcoming Blue's energy consumption has always been a goal for both Goku and Vegeta. It's not something that they all of a sudden decided to accomplish. Why would Goku tell Vegeta when they are in competition anyway? That's out of character and contradictory to story. Vegeta should of told Kakarot about being able to use Blue in short bursts successively while in Red but didn't.

They're also trying to help Trunk for the second trip back after their current powers failed to make a difference, not just jerk themselves off to see who's dick is bigger now. Goku even apologizes to leaving Trunks behind to Vegeta after the guy chews him out over it. Telling him about his hypothetical way of improving Blue would be a sound way to help everyone out of this Zamasu crisis.

Vegeta also knows about the Mafuba during this conversation as the means to sealing Zamasu, a technique Goku has to focus on for them to win. Telling him about the flipping thing at that point wouldn't mean anything since Goku needs to focus on the Mafuba. Vegeta, meanwhile, is going to train so he can kill Black, something a mastered Blue would greatly help him with and Goku doesn't tell him fucking anything about it even though they're trying to win this time around.

Kinda like how Vegeta wouldn't even fuse with Goku to stop a fused Zamasu.

[ekrolo2]

Kinda like how Vegeta wouldn't even fuse with Goku to stop a fused Zamasu.

Which was a totally moronic thing in both the anime and manga, Vegeta got over his stupid inferiority complex with Goku before, stop writing him like he hasn't just to retread old ground some more. Why the hell is GT the only thing that actually respect this development for him?

[Miracles]

Kinda like how Vegeta wouldn't even fuse with Goku to stop a fused Zamasu.

Which was a totally moronic thing in both the anime and manga, Vegeta got over his stupid inferiority complex with Goku before, stop writing him like he hasn't just to retread old ground some more. Why the hell is GT the only thing that actually respect this development for him?

Kakarot even agreed with Vegeta. Like I posted earlier, It's the competition and the Saiyan pride involved between the two.
That's the story.

[ekrolo2]

Kinda like how Vegeta wouldn't even fuse with Goku to stop a fused Zamasu.

Which was a totally moronic thing in both the anime and manga, Vegeta got over his stupid inferiority complex with Goku before, stop writing him like he hasn't just to retread old ground some more. Why the hell is GT the only thing that actually respect this development for him?

Kakarot even agreed with Vegeta. Like I posted earlier, It's the competition and the Saiyan pride involved between the two.
That's the story.

Ah yes, the Saiyan pride, or rather the plot device we need to artificially make easy to solve problems much harder under the guise of a character trait. A true staple of later DB that needs to fuck. off.

[alakazam^]

You forgot the most important one: the time travel is horrendously convoluted.

Trunks creates an alternate world when he kept Goku alive by going back in the past.
Therefore we have Trunks future world [universe 7] where Goku died and the past world [universe 7] where Goku is alive.
This equals only two different worlds in universe 7, past and future!

Where does Cell's appearance fit in all this...?

Cell first appears in the same alternate future world [where Goku is dead] three years later.
He finds out that the androids in this future world are already beaten.
That's because Trunks came back from the past world where the Z team already defeated perfect Cell and disposed of them.
So Trunks was heading back to the past world to let everyone know he defeated the androids in his future world too.
This is when Cell wasted Trunks. Then took the time machine and went four years back into the past.
Arriving one year before Trunks came and killed Freeza. Before Goku showed up to give him the medicine.
This is why Trunks was still able to freely travel because Cell killed Trunks three years later in the future world. Not realizing Trunks had already been to the past [Goku being alive].
Therefore that past world Trunks was not effected by the death of him in the future.

That's mostly how it goes but the Trunks killed by Cell can't be the one from the Cell Games since that one wouldn't be that weak and could handle Cell (and would be expecting him anyway). It still applies because we can just argue Cell travelling further back "rewrote" that timeline so it now includes him or something.

What people forget is that there is only one Time Ring so they have to include that in their reasoning. The three/four timelines theory is now dead.

[MisteryOne]

I'm confused. Why is the «why didnt Goku use it before» still an issue? Have people forgot that he was weakened by using the Mafuba and could barely use Blue when he first faced Merged Zamasu alone, or did I miss something? I have not read the official translated chapter trough, so please tell me.