Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TAF108]

This discussion of two base or not is getting tiring. I think people should just accept that they made their bases insanely strong in RoF because they had intention of just replacing traditional ssj with ssb and by the time of the U6 tournament they went back on it and just retconned how strong they were in base. After that we only see the strong base stuff in the fight of Goku vs Beerus and the Copy-Vegeta arc which were just inbetween stuff that doesn't really serve much for the main arcs.

This is pretty much exactly what two base people think. The show literally depicts two base forms of vastly different power levels. The theory isn't about the reason such as a retcon or if it is even a thing now.

Really it's just stating the anime seems to show there are two different levels of power in base form. One which seems to have absorbed the God power and one which is around Buu saga base level. In universe we say they can switch back on forth between them but out of universe we all know Toei f$ked up big time.

That's my main issue with the theory. It's more of a reconciliation for failure on Toei's part, rather than some kind of consistent theme. It's more of a way to explain Toei's inconsistent way of presenting the strength of, mostly Goku. You'd be hard pressed to find a scenario where someone says Vegeta is using a different base (Save Copy-Vegeta and against Cabba.)

So really, it's just Toei's inconsistency. You have things like Goku being stated to absorb SSJG in BoG, then Goku being stated to be higher than that in base during RoF, ,fighting Final Form Freeza in RoF then you have him fighting Copy-Vegeta, who tanked a kick from Super Gotenks in base, then you have him fighting Monaka-Beerus and exciting, Beerus commenting on if Goku & Vegeta can take him now, Base Goku duking it out with Fit Boo,Base Goku & Bergamo, etc.

On the opposite end, you have things like SSJ Goku VS Frost, SSJ Goku V. SSJ Gohan, SSJ2 Goku V.S. Basically anyone in the Goku Black Arc, basically anytime Goku transforms against someone who "should" be massively weaker than him. (Others would argue those characters are simply really strong now, such as the case in Trunks & Zamasu.)

I would definitely chalk this up to Toei having a warped sense of scaling, rather the idea of multiple bases. The entire idea of Saiyajin Beyond God, in the aspect of it being a base form with Divine Ki, is absent in Super. Evident by the fact that they only bring up Goku's ki not being able to be sensed and the pressure of his ki in SSJB. It seems current theories on the two bases have retracted the Divine Ki requisite. But without it, the only difference between the "two" bases is power level. Which again, falls onto Toei's typical wacky scaling...

[Hugo Boss]

I honestly don't see a reason to think Boo held back against Goku either. Sure he didn't have the intention to kill, but it's not like he is putting out less power than usual, because even Goku was amazed at how strong he was. So, I think this is a situation in which Goku is using god-like power and Boo managed to surpass that power. Giving that everyone seems to be getting far stronger in a such short amount of time, I don't disregard the possibility that Boo also did it.

The same thing that Hit was doing, he couldnt go at a 100% against Goku because he is used to killing, not fighting with rules, Boo's also not used to fighting with rules.
Goku did mention he got faster, but didnt comment about his strength.

It was said Boo was both faster and stronger.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

[TheMikado]

Well really the second base was always thought to be Saiyan beyond God which is also able to be sensed and no God ki. The manga took the step of making that "2nd base" SSG which is what SbG basically is in terms of where it sits in the power scale. The point being is there's only one way to reconcile it in universe and it's to apply the same rules that the fact sheet that was dug up recently use. Which is that they can use God ki without changing form. It is absolutely true the anime does not have this concept, but rather its people stating that should rather than does based on Toriyamas outline and Toei isn't following it.

[SansrivaaL]

I honestly don't see a reason to think Boo held back against Goku either. Sure he didn't have the intention to kill, but it's not like he is putting out less power than usual, because even Goku was amazed at how strong he was. So, I think this is a situation in which Goku is using god-like power and Boo managed to surpass that power. Giving that everyone seems to be getting far stronger in a such short amount of time, I don't disregard the possibility that Boo also did it.

The same thing that Hit was doing, he couldnt go at a 100% against Goku because he is used to killing, not fighting with rules, Boo's also not used to fighting with rules.
Goku did mention he got faster, but didnt comment about his strength.

It was said Boo was both faster and stronger.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Just faster, if he meant both power and speed then it woulda been "You got faster and stronger" not "faster and you've got that power"

[SansrivaaL]

Hit had a technique that kills people instantly. That is nothing like Buu. And Buu fought someone st full power without killing them.

So no. It makes no sense for Buu to hold back, especially since he knows Goku's power.

Its that Boo is used to killing rather than knocking out his enemies, the same with Hit where he is used to killing. I thought the show even proved a point by having Satan and Goku tell Boo that he's not allowed to kill?
He also knows Goku has SSJ forms, so him holding back because obviously Goku's also holding back can be the case.

Buu fought at full power and didn't kill anyone. And he's able to fight in tourument with Mr. Satan and no one dies. There is nothing that says Buu using his full power kills people or will nuke the planet. He didn't even have that problem in the Buu Saga. They only voice concern when Buu said he would beat everyone. For the exhibition match he didn't try to kill Basil. He properly ringed him out.

Hit has a specific technique that kills. Other than that, he can used his full power in a fight as shown when he fought Goku.

And Buu would want Goku to transformed. Not just equal him. That's what everyone else who spars Goku does. Buu isn't special.

There is nothing stated that Boo is going all out, because if he was then SSJ Gohan v SSJ Goku happened and Gohan got the better of that, Krillin's ki wave also happened that forced Goku to go SSJ, Future Trunks also happened that ,atched SSJ2 Goku, if we go by all that then Boo is weaker than SSJ Gohan. Yes because Boo thought it was fine to beat them up when he shouldnt, he should ring them out, that was their concern, Boo might play around too much or may overdo it.

Still doesnt change what I say about Boo not used to fighting with a set of rules.

Except that wasnt the intention, what the preimse was if Boo can fight with a set of rules, not duking it out to see if he's strong enough because obviously he is, Goku already saw him fight, he is strong enough, the question remained if he can fight in a tournament type setting.

[Hugo Boss]

The same thing that Hit was doing, he couldnt go at a 100% against Goku because he is used to killing, not fighting with rules, Boo's also not used to fighting with rules.
Goku did mention he got faster, but didnt comment about his strength.

It was said Boo was both faster and stronger.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Just faster, if he meant both power and speed then it woulda been "You got faster and stronger" not "faster and you've got that power"

"You've got that power" in this context means he got power he didn't have before, given his training regimen and all. Also, Herms wrote on his synopsis (Ep 85) that Boo got stronger.

[ZombieVito]

It was said Boo was both faster and stronger.
[spoiler][/spoiler]

Just faster, if he meant both power and speed then it woulda been "You got faster and stronger" not "faster and you've got that power"

"You've got that power" in this context means he got power he didn't have before, given his training regimen and all. Also, Herms wrote on his synopsis (Ep 85) that Boo got stronger.

Reading that line from the episode doesn't give me that vibe. I can definitely see SansrivaaL's point.

[Hugo Boss]

Just faster, if he meant both power and speed then it woulda been "You got faster and stronger" not "faster and you've got that power"

"You've got that power" in this context means he got power he didn't have before, given his training regimen and all. Also, Herms wrote on his synopsis (Ep 85) that Boo got stronger.

Reading that line from the episode doesn't give me that vibe. I can definitely see SansrivaaL's point.

Unless you provide a different perspective from Herms, I don't. Boo has been training and even his form is different, yet he only got faster? Doesn't seem right. If Goku only wanted to praise his speed, I don't think he would mention power at all. He mentions both "speed" and "power" in the same sentence.

[SansrivaaL]

Unless you provide a different perspective from Herms, I don't. Boo has been training and even his form is different, yet he only got faster? Doesn't seem right. If Goku only wanted to praise his speed, I don't think he would mention power at all. He mentions both "speed" and "power" in the same sentence.

The idea was that Boo got super thin so maybe his power got weaker from slimming down which didnt so Goku notices it and says his speed increased while his power remained the same despite the huge weight loss, or so at least thats how I see it.

[HeroR]

Unless you provide a different perspective from Herms, I don't. Boo has been training and even his form is different, yet he only got faster? Doesn't seem right. If Goku only wanted to praise his speed, I don't think he would mention power at all. He mentions both "speed" and "power" in the same sentence.

The idea was that Boo got super thin so maybe his power got weaker from slimming down which didnt so Goku notices it and says his speed increased while his power remained the same despite the huge weight loss, or so at least thats how I see it.

When did getting slim and shape means getting weaker power wise? Goku never even suggested that. The text reads that Buu has gotten stronger and faster, which usually happens when people train in this series.

[SansrivaaL]

Unless you provide a different perspective from Herms, I don't. Boo has been training and even his form is different, yet he only got faster? Doesn't seem right. If Goku only wanted to praise his speed, I don't think he would mention power at all. He mentions both "speed" and "power" in the same sentence.

The idea was that Boo got super thin so maybe his power got weaker from slimming down which didnt so Goku notices it and says his speed increased while his power remained the same despite the huge weight loss, or so at least thats how I see it.

When did getting slim and shape means getting weaker power wise? Goku never even suggested that. The text reads that Buu has gotten stronger and faster, which usually happens when people train in this series.

Appearance wise he would look weaker, thats a normal reaction when you see someone slim down like a sumo wrestler can easily overpower an MMA fighter when it comes to power, he doesnt need to suggest everything just to make 100% sure of it, just as how he didnt 100% suggest Boo's power got stronger.

[HeroR]

Appearance wise he would look weaker, thats a normal reaction when you see someone slim down like a sumo wrestler can easily overpower an MMA fighter when it comes to power, he doesnt need to suggest everything just to make 100% sure of it, just as how he didnt 100% suggest Boo's power got stronger.

When have appearance equal strength in this series? It has almost always been the opposite. Just look at Evil Buu who was even thinner than Skinny Buu. By Goku's own words, Buu got stronger and faster. Even if you don't believe he has gotten stronger, Buu wouldn't have gotten weaker from training all day.

At this point, you have to talk to Herms if you want to get a different interpretation that Goku was only saying his speed increased.

[SansrivaaL]

Appearance wise he would look weaker, thats a normal reaction when you see someone slim down like a sumo wrestler can easily overpower an MMA fighter when it comes to power, he doesnt need to suggest everything just to make 100% sure of it, just as how he didnt 100% suggest Boo's power got stronger.

When have appearance equal strength in this series? It has almost always been the opposite. Just look at Evil Buu who was even thinner than Skinny Buu. By Goku's own words, Buu got stronger and faster. Even if you don't believe he has gotten stronger, Buu wouldn't have gotten weaker from training all day.

At this point, you have to talk to Herms if you want to get a different interpretation that Goku was only saying his speed increased.

Like I said it was just a normal reaction based on appearance, when Goku saw Boo slim down of course he would have opinions on what could have changed in his stats. I never implied he had gotten weaker, I just said appearance wise there was nothing odd about Goku thinking logically that getting slimmer may take your power away but raise your speed which in Boo's case he didnt lose any power while raising his speed hence his reaction.

I can understand a bit of nihongo just fine and I completely understood what Goku meant there.
Speedo mo agata, sono powah mo aru in a literal sense he said "your speed increased, and you have that power" Goku's way of talking is simple, if he meant his power and speed increased he woulda said "speedo to powah agata na" anyways I dont plan to continue this anymore, believe what you may.

[HeroR]

Like I said it was just a normal reaction based on appearance, when Goku saw Boo slim down of course he would have opinions on what could have changed in his stats. I never implied he had gotten weaker, I just said appearance wise there was nothing odd about Goku thinking logically that getting slimmer may take your power away but raise your speed which in Boo's case he didnt lose any power while raising his speed hence his reaction.

I can understand a bit of nihongo just fine and I completely understood what Goku meant there.
Speedo mo agata, sono powah mo aru in a literal sense he said "your speed increased, and you have that power" Goku's way of talking is simple, if he meant his power and speed increased he woulda said "speedo to powah agata na" anyways I dont plan to continue this anymore, believe what you may.

Goku is savvy about the world of Dragon Ball. When he saw Monaka, he assured Vegeta that he was strong because of his unassuming appearance. Goku wouldn't think Buu got weaker because he got skinny. And Goku traded blows with Buu before he said anything, so Goku would know just from that that Buu is stronger and faster.

If it was just speed, Goku would have said just speed, no mention of power. And again, in this series, when have a person got faster, but their power didn't increase by training. In fact, Vegeta more or less said on Namek that "since I'm stronger, my speed would naturally increase" when Cui tried to fry him. In fact, the only time we have seen a speed and strength imbalanced was Ultra Super Saiyan.

[LowRyder2005]

"Having some power" is not necessarily the equivalent of "having more power than before". That's a given and shouldn't even need to be addressed. That being said, it could be likely that Buu's power had increased as well; one would probably need to re-address the original Japanese for a clear confirmation. Goku's words would still not act as a clear confirmation of any sort at least as they are reported in the Crunchyroll Subs.

Reading the subs, I personally took it as "oh, so you've become much faster, combined with your power it makes for a killer combo".

[SansrivaaL]

Reading the subs, I personally took it as "oh, so you've become much faster, combined with your power it makes for a killer combo".

Thats more along the lines on how I saw it as well, Goku only commented it probably because he thought slimming down can take some of your power away which didnt happen with Boo.

[Hugo Boss]

I can understand a bit of nihongo just fine and I completely understood what Goku meant there.
Speedo mo agata, sono powah mo aru in a literal sense he said "your speed increased, and you have that power" Goku's way of talking is simple, if he meant his power and speed increased he woulda said "speedo to powah agata na" anyways I dont plan to continue this anymore, believe what you may.

You should have said this from the beginning. It seems there is an ambiguity in Goku's words. Herms understood Boo became stronger.

[SansrivaaL]

You should have said this from the beginning. It seems there is an ambiguity in Goku's words. Herms understood Boo became stronger.

I thought people would just overlook it the main reason why I'm with the "his speed increased and power remained the same" is because why would Goku seperate them if both had increased? from how I understood it he was complimenting that Boo got fast combined with his power would be a force to be reckoned with.

[HybridSaiyan]

Characters are just as strong as the plot demands. Why y'all making a big deal of this? Master Roshi effortlessly defeated Tien. Isn't that enough to make you think "Wait, something's wrong here?" Super and power levels just don't go together lmao.

[SansrivaaL]

Characters are just as strong as the plot demands. Why y'all making a big deal of this? Master Roshi effortlessly defeated Tien. Isn't that enough to make you think "Wait, something's wrong here?" Super and power levels just don't go together lmao.

For killing time, my friend. Roshi may have that God ki weed going for him