Unpopular DB opinions

[Chuquita]

Agreed. It's depressing when you think about it.
So is Goku going off with Shenlong and vanishing for decades on end, making it the last time he sees most of his friends and family alive (depressing in a different way).

I wish he could've gotten his adult body back after the first arc of GT. Ssj4 temporarily gives it back, but not in the way I'd want (would prefer if ssj4 somehow permanently negated the wish's effects and when he drops back to base he's an adult again).

[Zephyr]

Given that Roshi, the Crane Hermit, and Tao Pai Pai lived well past the normal human lifespan through being martial arts masters, I'd honestly expect Goku to outlive his family regardless of any Kaioshin life donations or magical wishes.

[WittyUsername]

He couldn't teleport and his younger body didn't have nearly as much stamina.

Goku not being able to teleport (for some reason) was really the only relevant downside to him becoming a child again. The thing about him having less stamina only came up once in episode 29 to explain why he couldn’t maintain Super Saiyan 3.

Which is kind of a big deal. The ability to teleport became very important after it was introduced. Goku not being able to hold onto SSJ3 necessitated the need for SSJ4.

I will agree that him not being able to teleport was necessary to justify the “grand tour” aspect of the show, but it’s kinda weird that not being able to teleport was basically the only downside of him becoming a kid again. He could still fly, go Super Saiyan and trade blows with a guy who’s apparently stronger than Majin Boo. They were very selective in how they decided to “depower” Goku.

The Super Saiyan 3 thing didn’t seem to make much of a difference, considering that Goku as an SS3 was shown to be no match for Baby anyway.

[sunsetshimmer]

Adult Goku in GT would change almost nothing. Even though he apparently had less stamina it doesn't matter because he was holding back as hell for entire first arc anyway. The first time he didn't hold back at all was against Baby Vegeta, he went SSJ3 but quickly lost it due to weaker body. But guess what, even if he could last longer in SSJ3 he would still get demolished by Baby anyway. No difference. And he got SSJ4 shortly after that making any limits go away.

There are 2 things that would change with adult Goku coming to my mind:
-He would be able to teleport so on Imecka he would just get back their stolen spaceship without all the goofy sneaking part
-He would maybe be able to fuse with Vegeta again against Omega. Since he was adult only in SSJ4, they could only fuse into Gogeta SSJ4. When they reverted to base, they couldn't fuse anymore with Goku's size being the biggest problem. Even if Goku had enough power to go SSJ4 again, Vegeta couldn't transform again making it lose-lose situation. That was actually very clever plot point actually making good use of entire small size body limit thing.

[ABED]

Goku not being able to teleport (for some reason) was really the only relevant downside to him becoming a child again. The thing about him having less stamina only came up once in episode 29 to explain why he couldn’t maintain Super Saiyan 3.

Which is kind of a big deal. The ability to teleport became very important after it was introduced. Goku not being able to hold onto SSJ3 necessitated the need for SSJ4.

I will agree that him not being able to teleport was necessary to justify the “grand tour” aspect of the show, but it’s kinda weird that not being able to teleport was basically the only downside of him becoming a kid again. He could still fly, go Super Saiyan and trade blows with a guy who’s apparently stronger than Majin Boo. They were very selective in how they decided to “depower” Goku.

The Super Saiyan 3 thing didn’t seem to make much of a difference, considering that Goku as an SS3 was shown to be no match for Baby anyway.

I'd have to watch the fight again, but stamina is a big issue. SSJ3's power consumption played big parts in the Buu arc. Also it makes more sense for the drawback to be something like that than preventing him from flying or taking away Super Saiyan, neither of which were age dependent.

[WittyUsername]

Which is kind of a big deal. The ability to teleport became very important after it was introduced. Goku not being able to hold onto SSJ3 necessitated the need for SSJ4.

I will agree that him not being able to teleport was necessary to justify the “grand tour” aspect of the show, but it’s kinda weird that not being able to teleport was basically the only downside of him becoming a kid again. He could still fly, go Super Saiyan and trade blows with a guy who’s apparently stronger than Majin Boo. They were very selective in how they decided to “depower” Goku.

The Super Saiyan 3 thing didn’t seem to make much of a difference, considering that Goku as an SS3 was shown to be no match for Baby anyway.

I'd have to watch the fight again, but stamina is a big issue. SSJ3's power consumption played big parts in the Buu arc. Also it makes more sense for the drawback to be something like that than preventing him from flying or taking away Super Saiyan, neither of which were age dependent.

Teleporting was never suggested to be age dependent either. Sure, Goku never learned to teleport as a kid, but he didn’t know how to fly or go Super Saiyan either, yet he could still do both of those things when he reverted to a child.

You are right about how Super Saiyan 3 has always been shown to drain its user’s ki, but if you ask me, that just makes the “stamina” issue seem like even more of a non-factor. SS3 was never shown to be a very efficient form in the first place, so the only real difference him being a kid seemed to make was that the form wore off quicker than it did when he was an adult, but again, SS3 was shown to be no match for Baby anyway.

[Koitsukai]

Goku was able to sustain SS3 after only getting his tail back, for some reason. He still was far from VB, it wasn't that he couldn't sustain it, but that SS3 wasn't strong enough to win.

And was shunkanido really needed in GT? without a ki signature, there isn't much to do. Only if they had to go back to a planet, but I don't think they had to. I can't recall him going "shoot, I wish I could do it". Earth falling apart comes to mind, in any case, seems quite silly to see the first disadvantage by the 40th episode.
Well, the first one would've been episode 25th, I think, when SS3 proves to be too much for his body. They could've created scenarios where shunkanido could've saved them a lot of time early on in the show, but I honestly can't remember any situation where that would've come in handy.

[Zephyr]

I don't really think "Super Saiyan 3 having its usual problems" is something that makes sense to present as a consequence of Goku being turned into a kid. That's a consequence of Super Saiyan 3 being Super Saiyan 3.

[ABED]

I will agree that him not being able to teleport was necessary to justify the “grand tour” aspect of the show, but it’s kinda weird that not being able to teleport was basically the only downside of him becoming a kid again. He could still fly, go Super Saiyan and trade blows with a guy who’s apparently stronger than Majin Boo. They were very selective in how they decided to “depower” Goku.

The Super Saiyan 3 thing didn’t seem to make much of a difference, considering that Goku as an SS3 was shown to be no match for Baby anyway.

I'd have to watch the fight again, but stamina is a big issue. SSJ3's power consumption played big parts in the Buu arc. Also it makes more sense for the drawback to be something like that than preventing him from flying or taking away Super Saiyan, neither of which were age dependent.

Teleporting was never suggested to be age dependent either. Sure, Goku never learned to teleport as a kid, but he didn’t know how to fly or go Super Saiyan either, yet he could still do both of those things when he reverted to a child.

You are right about how Super Saiyan 3 has always been shown to drain its user’s ki, but if you ask me, that just makes the “stamina” issue seem like even more of a non-factor. SS3 was never shown to be a very efficient form in the first place, so the only real difference him being a kid seemed to make was that the form wore off quicker than it did when he was an adult, but again, SS3 was shown to be no match for Baby anyway.

It's not necessarily age dependent but it does appear to be an energy sucker.

Goku didn't have a problem with the SSJ3 form in the afterlife bc his body was tougher. You get the sense that with enough time and training he could get better with it in a living body in the same way he got better and could use higher multiples of Kaio-ken.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Goku didn't have a problem with the SSJ3 form in the afterlife bc his body was tougher. You get the sense that with enough time and training he could get better with it in a living body in the same way he got better and could use higher multiples of Kaio-ken.

Derek Padula touched on this in the stream he did with Geekdom101 recently and suggested Super Saiyan 3 is something that works better outside the living world because it represents a higher level of enlightenment.

Derek Padula wrote:

I look at it as an Other Worldly transformation because King Kai didn't want Goku to do this because he thought it was so powerful that it could destroy the entire Earth, and its something he attained while he was dead in the Other World, so it's really something that comes from that realm.

Now whether or not Goku could master Super Saiyan 3 on Earth remains to be seen, the series has never explored that in much depth, but between where its prominently used and the circumstances there is a lot of tie-ins to Buddhism that it represents something generally beyond the capabilities of mortals in the living world.

[WittyUsername]

I guess since we’re discussing Super Saiyan 3, I remember reading a theory that the transformation is some kind of weird mutation that isn’t typically achieved through normal means. After all, Goku was dead when he obtained the form and the only other character who used it in the original manga was Gotenks, who happens to be a fusion. I always thought that was an interesting idea that helped explain why Vegeta and the Universe 6 Saiyans never obtained the form, but it seems Daima basically threw that out the window.

[perucho1990]

Trunks vs Merged Zamasu wasnt that nonsensical in Super because he inherited Goku and Vegeta god ki, now the whole Spirit Sword bomb was a whole different case

[The Monkey King]

Trunks vs Merged Zamasu wasnt that nonsensical in Super because he inherited Goku and Vegeta god ki

DBS' writing is so garbage that even in defense of it you had to insert headcanon that wasn't stated anywhere in the actual show

SSJR is a clear asspull, the Spirit Bomb Sword is just a worse asspull.

[SupremeKai25]

Trunks vs Merged Zamasu wasnt that nonsensical in Super because he inherited Goku and Vegeta god ki, now the whole Spirit Sword bomb was a whole different case

Trunks vs. Fused Zamasu wasn't nonsensical because

1) Gowasu and Shin literally pointed out how Fused Zamasu was falling apart both mentally, as a result of the continued defiance of mortals, and physically, as a result of Black's mortal half interfering with Zamasu's immortal half. In a story centred around martial arts and technique as Dragon Ball Super is, that's a crippling weakness.

2) Goku and Vegeta gave their energy to Trunks. Even weakened as they were, they remained the strongest mortal characters in the story at that point.

3) The Spirit Bomb is a technique designed to kill evil-doers. Fused Zamasu is the most evil villain in the entire franchise. You thought Frieza was evil? Fused Zamasu would beat Frieza for his lunch money. He committed MULTIVERSAL GENOCIDE (or Ominicide, or whatever the proper term is). I'd say an attack designed to kill evil-doers should be very effective against the most evil of villains.

4) It's not like Trunks destroyed Zamasu or anything. All Trunks did was split Zamasu into two. As the next episode shows, Zamasu was still able to speak and laugh even while split in half. As Gowasu later explains, Zamasu's body was not destroyed as a result of Trunks' attack, but as a result of Zamasu himself shedding his crippled mortal body (as he miscalculated when he fused with a mortal) to unleash the full potential of his immortality. In other words, Zamasu pulled a last gamble like Moro. (that's also why Zamasu disintegrated after laughing maniacally and saying that it wasn't over, instead of after Trunks split him in half)

The writing is perfectly fine. Ofc, since some people prefer to dismiss Super as "garbage writing" that doesn't require the brain to be turned on, such plot points are easily missed. (not necessarily you)

Want an example of truly garbage writing? Look no further than Super Perfect Cell. Literally his entire existence does not make any sense whatsoever and contradicts everything that was said up to that point regarding Cell and the Androids.

Super Perfect Cell is not even a character. He's just a walking, talking asspull who had a look at the script and changed the rules.

[dbs fanboy]

Agreed. It's depressing when you think about it.
So is Goku going off with Shenlong and vanishing for decades on end, making it the last time he sees most of his friends and family alive (depressing in a different way).

I wish he could've gotten his adult body back after the first arc of GT. Ssj4 temporarily gives it back, but not in the way I'd want (would prefer if ssj4 somehow permanently negated the wish's effects and when he drops back to base he's an adult again).

Honestly, it frustrated me a lot as a kid when Goku and co finally got the Dragon Balls back, and he decided to just stay a child.
Just go to Namek for Christ's sake!

Which makes me think, couldn't they have just gathered the regular dragon balls and used them to wish the black ones back to Earth?

[MasenkoHA]

Want an example of truly garbage writing? Look no further than Super Perfect Cell. Literally his entire existence does not make any sense whatsoever and contradicts everything that was said up to that point regarding Cell and the Androids.

Super Perfect Cell is not even a character. He's just a walking, talking asspull who had a look at the script and changed the rules.

If we completely ignore he has Saiyan biology courtesy of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan and its reasonable for him to inherit the near death power boost....sure yeah asspull right.

And "he's not even a character" what does that even mean? it's still the same Perfect Cell character from the last 20 or chapters just with a power boost. Not a brand new character

[SupremeKai25]

Want an example of truly garbage writing? Look no further than Super Perfect Cell. Literally his entire existence does not make any sense whatsoever and contradicts everything that was said up to that point regarding Cell and the Androids.

Super Perfect Cell is not even a character. He's just a walking, talking asspull who had a look at the script and changed the rules.

If we completely ignore he has Saiyan biology courtesy of Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan and its reasonable for him to inherit the near death power boost....sure yeah asspull right.

Strange how this argument literally never comes up whenever Black is being discussed. When it's about Black creating new weapons and reaching higher heights of power, it's just asspulls.

Still, since you did not acknowledge the rest of my post, I suppose that you agree that the final fight of the Future Trunks saga makes sense. I'm glad we see eye to eye on that.

[Koitsukai]

Well, you have to admit that Black is using a saiyan body said to have reach its limits in terms of grinding through zenkais. He got stronger the easy way, doing things Goku stopped doing after Namek. I can see Ginyu exploiting Goku's body like that back then, but by now it's difficult to accept.

Cell's body, on the other hand, was brand new.

[AliTheZombie13]

The Zenkai itself is an ass pull that should've never existed, so eh.
All of them suck.

[SupremeKai25]

Well, you have to admit that Black is using a saiyan body said to have reach its limits in terms of grinding through zenkais. He got stronger the easy way, doing things Goku stopped doing after Namek. I can see Ginyu exploiting Goku's body like that back then, but by now it's difficult to accept.

Cell's body, on the other hand, was brand new.

Black's body was brand new to him. He was a God who had just acquired a mortal body. Owing to his unique nature, he was able to draw out the dormant power of the body by injuring himself and experiencing pain.

That's convenient, but not an asspull. It makes perfect sense once you realize that rules don't apply to Black because he's special.

Cell returning in his perfect form despite not having Android 18, because apparently his cells "memorized" the perfect form, is more than convenience and is indeed an asspull. But that's alright, because it resulted in that nostalgic kamehameha sequence so we can cut him some slack.

And besides, Cell should have already died when Goku vaporized his head. What's one more asspull to add to the pile?