Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[HeroR]

Or maybe ssj2 Trunks and Future Zamasu keeping up with ssj blue level opponents is simply to look good only. Basically an inconsistency.

Except Future Zamasu keeping up had several scenes while Super Saiyan 2 Trunks kicking Rose Black into a wall was a one time thing that he never repeated until Rage. And again, if Zamasu was that much weaker than everyone, Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have been worried about Zamasu killing Trunks and others in Episode 63 and Merged Zamasu wouldn't have been so even with Vegetto. The only power outlier in that saga was Trunks.

[buutenks]

Or maybe ssj2 Trunks and Future Zamasu keeping up with ssj blue level opponents is simply to look good only. Basically an inconsistency.

Except Future Zamasu keeping up had several scenes while Super Saiyan 2 Trunks kicking Rose Black into a wall was a one time thing that he never repeated until Rage. And again, if Zamasu was that much weaker than everyone, Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have been worried about Zamasu killing Trunks and others in Episode 63 and Merged Zamasu wouldn't have been so even with Vegetto. The only power outlier in that saga was Trunks.

Well that is true. I guess in F. Zamasu's defense Goku did say when he was clashing with F Zamasu that it was different than the time he fought him as an ssj2. Tho, we also have F Zamasu clashing with ssj blue Goku in ep 63. If Zamasu had been so much weaker he'd have gotten steam rolled by ssj blue Goku.

So Trunks could be the outliar. Since I have no issue with F Zamasu getting much stronger in 17 years. While for Trunks its not even stated that he got stronger pre ssj rage form, while Goku states that F Zamasu is different from the one in ep 53.

[HeroR]

Or maybe ssj2 Trunks and Future Zamasu keeping up with ssj blue level opponents is simply to look good only. Basically an inconsistency.

Except Future Zamasu keeping up had several scenes while Super Saiyan 2 Trunks kicking Rose Black into a wall was a one time thing that he never repeated until Rage. And again, if Zamasu was that much weaker than everyone, Goku and Vegeta wouldn't have been worried about Zamasu killing Trunks and others in Episode 63 and Merged Zamasu wouldn't have been so even with Vegetto. The only power outlier in that saga was Trunks.

Well that is true. I guess in F. Zamasu's defense Goku did say when he was clashing with F Zamasu that it was different than the time he fought him as an ssj2. Tho, we also have F Zamasu clashing with ssj blue Goku in ep 63. If Zamasu had been so much weaker he'd have gotten steam rolled by ssj blue Goku.

So Trunks could be the outliar. Since I have no issue with F Zamasu getting much stronger in 17 years. While for Trunks its not even stated that he got stronger pre ssj rage form, while Goku states that F Zamasu is different from the one in ep 53.

That is kind of my point and problem with using 'Trunks did this, so such and such is only this strong'. We seen Zamasu fight Goku when he used Blue and the only time he really got steamrolled was when he was trying to rushed to Black's side when he was getting beating by Vegeta and Goku's rage boost. Meanwhile, Trunks as a Super Saiyan 2 kicked Black Rose into a building after blocking a blow meant for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, and we never seen anything like that again.

But I will end it here since people who are convince that Future Zamasu is only as strong as Present Zamasu have their mindset.

[LowRyder2005]

So now that most of the heat has died down, where is master roshi placed power wise?
Give me a comparison here, jeice? Ginyu? Tien?

I find Roshi kind of hard to pinpoint even if we wanted to disregard the fight with Tien. I don't see him higher than the Ginyu Squad though, following the notion that he somewhat behind his students in Z and kept training afterwards.

Following Toei's quirks, I'd probably see him trashing the Squad but not Namek Freeza. Personally, though, I'd still peg him as comparable to the initial Saiyans, or base Goku from the Vegeta fight (~ 5000/8000), bar the supposed power-up given by the sorcery. Which would still be gargantuan... enough to get him into the hundred thousands or even the low millions, I suppose. But yeah, it's one of those cases in which the writing makes it so that anything could apply. In other words, do we say:

A. "Nappa to Reecome, because Roshi couldn't realistically get that stronger"?
B. "Semi-Perfect Cell to Base Vegito because Goku thought he had great power and was excited to fight him"?
C. "Super Saiyan God Goku or above because he could trade blows on equal terms with the Goku, the guy who'll finger-flick everything in Z because he's just become that strong"?

You're bound to fight all these answers, and every single one could make dramatically more or less sense according to the single poster.

[Ki Breaker]

So now that most of the heat has died down, where is master roshi placed power wise?
Give me a comparison here, jeice? Ginyu? Tien?

I find Roshi kind of hard to pinpoint even if we wanted to disregard the fight with Tien. I don't see him higher than the Ginyu Squad though, following the notion that he somewhat behind his students in Z and kept training afterwards.

Following Toei's quirks, I'd probably see him trashing the Squad but not Namek Freeza. Personally, I'd still peg him as comparable to the initial Saiyans, or base Goku from the Vegeta fight (~ 5000/8000), bar the supposed power-up given by the sorcery which would be pretty dramatic (enough to get him into the hundred thousands or even the low millions, I suppose).

Black magic didn't power him up at all though, goku mentioned this is Roshi's power when he isn't holding back to nail down the point he mentioned him training secretly to achieve higher power..
I will personally keep him above Yamcha and just below tien so that his thunder shock surprise is actually deadly enough to do what it did

[LowRyder2005]

So now that most of the heat has died down, where is master roshi placed power wise?
Give me a comparison here, jeice? Ginyu? Tien?

I find Roshi kind of hard to pinpoint even if we wanted to disregard the fight with Tien. I don't see him higher than the Ginyu Squad though, following the notion that he somewhat behind his students in Z and kept training afterwards.

Following Toei's quirks, I'd probably see him trashing the Squad but not Namek Freeza. Personally, I'd still peg him as comparable to the initial Saiyans, or base Goku from the Vegeta fight (~ 5000/8000), bar the supposed power-up given by the sorcery which would be pretty dramatic (enough to get him into the hundred thousands or even the low millions, I suppose).

Black magic didn't power him up at all though, goku mentioned this is Roshi's power when he isn't holding back to nail down the point he mentioned him training secretly to achieve higher power..
I will personally keep him above Yamcha and just below tien so that his thunder shock surprise is actually deadly enough to do what it did

That's the conclusion most people are going for (and not exactly an unwarranted one), but as a matter of fact it still involves some degree of guesswork.

Tien's students and Roshi were flying and repelling Chiaotzu's telekinesis, something they normally - and obviously - coudn't do. Tien also had to apparently exert some force to parry the blows and then restrain his possessed students (whom are probably around, what, Tenkaichi Budokai level fighters or below?) in an armlock before removing the seal, when he's supposed to be in a whole different league. They also say that the area is now full of "sinister ki", when the guys weren't supposed to emanate ki at all. Well, it fits because they could fly, among other things.

Regarding Goku, I think his senses could have simply been very keen, thus enabling him to discern (or estimate) Roshi's power anyway. In the bedlam that ensued after the episode, I would have honestly expected for someone to bring up an in-universe counter-argument about Goku being too thick to realize that Roshi was massively powered-up as well (seems like it didn't happen).

[buutenks]

Seriously? Its stated by Goku, with actual words that is Roshi's real power when he isn't holding back. What more do you want?

[LowRyder2005]

Seriously? Its stated by Goku, with actual words that is Roshi's real power when he isn't holding back. What more do you want?

I've already explained how I'm inclined to address Goku's words above. Namely, Goku's words are determinant in establishing that he was probably able to gauge or have an idea of Roshi's full power (or, more specifically, the power Roshi usually kept hidden) only.

To answer your question: I suppose a clear "Roshi wasn't empowered by the nefarious black magic" would suffice. Then again, there might be something more conclusive in the upcoming episodes; I honestly wouldn't put Roshi suddenly ascending to the status of a powerhouse among earthlings past Toei's way of doing things, at the very least.

[Bullza]

Not sure you're being smart, it clear he means mortal fighters. Especially if Black is still behind Beerus and Champa is comparable to Beerus. So try again.

Zeno.

We clearly see Future Zamasu trading blows with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku when Present Zamasu got overwhelmed with Super Saiyan 2 Goku. And Goku never fought Zamasu in the manga so why would he make a comparison. Seriously, you have to be dense not to get the context that Goku struggled against Future Zamasu when he had a much easier time with Present Zamasu using not even half of his full power.

He traded blows for a few seconds of the fight and then proceeded to get beaten by everyone else on every other occasion. If he were God level then he wouldn't have trouble with Trunks who isn't God level.

Zamasu said last time he fought Goku he was distracted and could have done better which makes sense because he was taken by surprise at the strength of a mortal.

Goku never struggled against Zamasu. He struggled as much as he did with Krillin.

Certainly the show never claimed that.

It didn't claim that Future Zamasu was dozens of times stronger than Present Zamasu either. Neither did the manga.

I am not exaggerating. I am telling you exactly what the show said by both Trunks and Goku.

And I pointed out an example of it. What of it? It has nothing to do with Trunks beating him around that first time, he didn't let his guard down then obviously as he was dodging and blocking attacks.

Thinking every time he gets it's because he let his guard down is the exaggeration.

He's in the tier of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku.

He's obviously not otherwise ordinary SSJ2 Trunks wouldn't be able to get one over on him. The manga makes it very clear that he's nowhere close to that level and regardless if the anime and manga have differences the same idea is presented in both versions and it makes zero sense with the actual story they're trying to tell in the first place.

be held down by Zamasu so Black could waste them with a Kamehameha.

Goku held Raditz and Android 16 held Perfect Cell so that doesn't mean anything.

Then why didn't Merged Zamasu get stomped by Vegetto like his manga counterpart and he knocked Vegetto on his butt when they clashed fists and took a Final Kamehameha?

Because he powered up further using the power of the rift dimension aka the light of justice. If Black were stronger than Goku and Vegeta and Zamasu was as strong then he'd never have needed to power up at all. He'd be way stronger than Vegito but he wasn't. He wasn't even stronger than Goku using Kaioken.

This is just you not wanting to accept that Future Zamasu isn't as weak as you think.

My preference has nothing to do with anything. It's just what is portrayed.

Anime

1. He loses to SSJ2 Goku
2. He would have been killed by SSJ2 Trunks
3. He actually hits someone 3 maybe 4 times throughout the whole saga?
4. Stomped by SSJB Goku
5. A tired SSJ2 Trunks holds his own against him
6. Stomped by SSJB Goku again

Manga

1. Stomped by SSJB Goku
2. Goku reverted back to SSJ after realising how weak he was
3. Stomped by SSJB Goku
4. Was said to be weaker than Trunks

So yeah at best you could say he'd probably SSJ2 level.

[supercat]

Seriously? Its stated by Goku, with actual words that is Roshi's real power when he isn't holding back. What more do you want?

I stopped debating with that user among others for this very reason; power ups are downplayed, and the constant excuse to keep people exactly where they were several arcs prior, or at best approaching them with some understated minimalist mindset just got a bit played out for my taste.

I honestly don't get why people despise huge power ups in a show that practically revolves around surpassing previously established benchmarks.

I would think that any character undergoing a 10x power up would elicit loads of excitement. It really baffles me when I see people still wanting someone like Kid Buu to be considered a top-notch.

For me personally, hearing about top-tier fighters from the Buu arc becoming mere fodders would be make things that much more entertaining.

[buutenks]

Seriously? Its stated by Goku, with actual words that is Roshi's real power when he isn't holding back. What more do you want?

I stopped debating with that user among others for this very reason; power ups are downplayed, and the constant excuse to keep people exactly where they were several arcs prior, or at best approaching them with some understated minimalist mindset just got a bit played out for my taste.

I honestly don't get why people despise huge power ups in a show that practically revolves around surpassing previously established benchmarks.

I would think that any character undergoing a 10x power up would elicit loads of excitement. It really baffles me when I see people still wanting someone like Kid Buu to be considered a top-notch.

For me personally, hearing about top-tier fighters from the Buu arc becoming mere fodders would be make things that much more entertaining.

Seems to me that everyone chooses what they like and stick to it. This is Toei's fault for being so inconsistent and Toriyama's for making such a vague outline.

[BlueBasilisk]

I stopped debating with that user among others for this very reason; power ups are downplayed, and the constant excuse to keep people exactly where they were several arcs prior, or at best approaching them with some understated minimalist mindset just got a bit played out for my taste.

I honestly don't get why people despise huge power ups in a show that practically revolves around surpassing previously established benchmarks.

I would think that any character undergoing a 10x power up would elicit loads of excitement. It really baffles me when I see people still wanting someone like Kid Buu to be considered a top-notch.

For me personally, hearing about top-tier fighters from the Buu arc becoming mere fodders would be make things that much more entertaining.

Didn't people already suspect that Roshi had done some level grinding back when RoF came out? I mean, he was styling all over Frieza Fodder in a fight where Tien thought it was too dangerous to bring Yamcha and Chiaotzu. That was my impression anyway; Roshi decided to git gud again and surpassed the two of them. Yeah, he felt like he couldn't keep up back in Dragon Ball, but that doesn't mean he couldn't change his mind in the intervening...what, 20 years?

He wasn't all that strong in Dragon Ball, but nobody was, not even Goku. Any one of the heroes could have taken down King Piccolo or Junior with ease after their year of training with Kami in the early Saiyan saga.

I'm all for Super raising the water level for everyone like it is right now. Let anyone achieve great power if they want it and work for it. It doesn't trivialize Z any more than Z trivialized DB by having every random-ass alien in the cosmos being stronger than the greatest fighters humanity had to offer just because.

[LowRyder2005]

Seriously? Its stated by Goku, with actual words that is Roshi's real power when he isn't holding back. What more do you want?

I stopped debating with that user among others for this very reason; power ups are downplayed, and the constant excuse to keep people exactly where they were several arcs prior, or at best approaching them with some understated minimalist mindset just got a bit played out for my taste.

Technically, you stopped "debating" with me and with other people in this topic after being reprimanded multiple times by mods for coming forth with an off-putting attitude towards anyone who didn't share your sentiment, or in other words how many users were behaving in an "absolutely laughable" fashion when sharing their thoughts.

Aside from that, no, it's kind of obvious that I don't have any issue with establishing that characters are that strong if I find are stated to be, per se. The argument here was that Roshi had to be particularly strong specifically because of Goku's comments, I pointed out that the context may imply something else and that to me the adverse contention didn't seem that convincing.

I don't think I need to stress it's a very simple matter of respecting diverging opinions.

[dbgtFO]

Aside from that, no, it's kind of obvious that I don't have any issue with establishing that characters are that strong if I find are stated to be, per se. The argument here was that Roshi had to be particularly strong specifically because of Goku's comments, I pointed out that the context may imply something else and that to me the adverse contention didn't seem that convincing.

It's just a case of Goku reaching an outlandish conclusion, when the evidence implies something completely different, likely because the writers just needed an excuse for Roshi's supposed power at the ToP.
We litterally see, Tenshinhan's students and Roshi all of a sudden being capable of flying and displaying a purple evil aura and Roshi power up further, as Yurin repeats, then changes her chant and Goku concludes it is all Roshi??
Then again he's the same dumbass, who thought "Majin" Vegeta was all Vegeta's power on his own, until Vegeta flat out told him, it was Babidi who powered him up.
Still it's most unfortunate anyways :/

[LowRyder2005]

[...] I would have honestly expected for someone to bring up an in-universe counter-argument about Goku being too thick to realize that Roshi was massively powered-up as well [...]

My wish fulfilled.

Seriously, it may have been more "how TFS would have handled ep. 89", but for some strange reason I wanted someone to say it.

[Bullza]

How do people see current Base Gohan's power compared to how he was in DBZ. We know he must be somewhat comparable to that level but how do you think he compares exactly? As of this saga is he...

1. Weaker than he was in the Great Saiyaman saga?

2. As strong?

3. As strong as when he mastered the Z Sword and likely surpassed Goku and Vegeta?

4. Stronger than that?

In the Resurrection F saga when Gohan turned into a Super Saiyan he says

"Problem is, my current body can't maintain this for long".

I'm not sure if he's referring to him being damaged from Tagoma or he'd weakened considerably over time to the extent his body in general can't withstand Super Saiyan. In which case he'd be even weaker than in the Great Saiyaman saga because at least there he could transform no problem.

Then he retrained with Piccolo. Did that get him back up to where he was normally in the Buu saga?

[dragonball0900]

How do people see current Base Gohan's power compared to how he was in DBZ. We know he must be somewhat comparable to that level but how do you think he compares exactly? As of this saga is he...

1. Weaker than he was in the Great Saiyaman saga?

2. As strong?

3. As strong as when he mastered the Z Sword and likely surpassed Goku and Vegeta?

4. Stronger than that?

In the Resurrection F saga when Gohan turned into a Super Saiyan he says

"Problem is, my current body can't maintain this for long".

I'm not sure if he's referring to him being damaged from Tagoma or he'd weakened considerably over time to the extent his body in general can't withstand Super Saiyan. In which case he'd be even weaker than in the Great Saiyaman saga because at least there he could transform no problem.

Then he retrained with Piccolo. Did that get him back up to where he was normally in the Buu saga?

The reason why Gohan had trouble transforming into a SSJ I think was because of him not being used to the transformation after not being training, but it doesn't have to do with him being weaker or stronger than his Buu arc self, it's just that he some how forgot how to use it properly. It's also not possible for Gohan to be weaker than his Buu arc self since Tagoma dominated Piccolo completely, but was overclassed by Gohan as a SSJ. If Gohan was weaker than his Buu arc self, then that would mean that Piccolo didn't improve at all after the Buu arc, but we know that Piccolo trains. Here are my numbers on the matter:

Buu Arc Piccolo - 1,800,000,000
Buu Arc SSJ Gohan - 3,250,000,000
ROF Arc Piccolo - 3,000,000,000 (if you want him weaker, he could be at a 2,500,000,000, I personally wouldn't recommend it, we know Piccolo trains and how well his boosts are, specially with the recent DBS episodes)

If SSJ ROF Gohan > Tagoma > ROF Piccolo is stated in the series, and this Piccolo should probably be a lot closer to SSJ Buu arc Gohan after years of training, then I don't think ROF Gohan is weaker than Buu arc Gohan at all. I always had the interpretation that Gohan after training with the Z sword manages to get stronger and surpass Goku and Vegeta. Here are my numbers for them:

Buu Arc SSJ Vegeta - 3,600,000,000
Buu Arc SSJ Goku - 4,500,000,000
Post Z Sword SSJ Gohan - 5,000,000,000

We know that Gohan didn't lose a lot of power during the 7 years between the Cell and Buu arc. The same could happen with the gap between Buu arc and the BOG and ROF arcs. Gohan would lose a bit of power and get to probably this:

Post Z Sword SSJ Gohan - 5,000,000,000
BOG Arc SSJ Gohan - 4,800,000,000
ROF Arc SSJ Gohan - 4,700,000,000

It works really good and it places Gohan a lot above Piccolo's 3,000,000,000. Then we have Tagoma, who could easily fit in the 4,000,000,000 level of power.

If someone disagrees with me, feel free to comment on the subject.

[Hugo Boss]

Aside from that, no, it's kind of obvious that I don't have any issue with establishing that characters are that strong if I find are stated to be, per se. The argument here was that Roshi had to be particularly strong specifically because of Goku's comments, I pointed out that the context may imply something else and that to me the adverse contention didn't seem that convincing.

It's just a case of Goku reaching an outlandish conclusion, when the evidence implies something completely different, likely because the writers just needed an excuse for Roshi's supposed power at the ToP.
We litterally see, Tenshinhan's students and Roshi all of a sudden being capable of flying and displaying a purple evil aura and Roshi power up further, as Yurin repeats, then changes her chant and Goku concludes it is all Roshi??
Then again he's the same dumbass, who thought "Majin" Vegeta was all Vegeta's power on his own, until Vegeta flat out told him, it was Babidi who powered him up.
Still it's most unfortunate anyways :/

I totally forgot about that. I guess I can go with the idea that Goku isn't used to see Roshi fighting recently. And that Monjirou chant might be able to release latent power.

[ZombieVito]

How do people see current Base Gohan's power compared to how he was in DBZ. We know he must be somewhat comparable to that level but how do you think he compares exactly? As of this saga is he...

1. Weaker than he was in the Great Saiyaman saga?

2. As strong?

3. As strong as when he mastered the Z Sword and likely surpassed Goku and Vegeta?

4. Stronger than that?

In the Resurrection F saga when Gohan turned into a Super Saiyan he says

"Problem is, my current body can't maintain this for long".

I'm not sure if he's referring to him being damaged from Tagoma or he'd weakened considerably over time to the extent his body in general can't withstand Super Saiyan. In which case he'd be even weaker than in the Great Saiyaman saga because at least there he could transform no problem.

Then he retrained with Piccolo. Did that get him back up to where he was normally in the Buu saga?

That line has always confused me.

Did he really regressed that much? If we take the guidebooks word on the matter then he didn't drop a single digit in the 7 years after Cell but apparently he not only lost his Ultimate and SSJ2 forms but he also can't maintain his SSJ form for long in just 1?

I just take the easy route and have him in RoF exactly the same as he was after training with the Z sword. Based on my numbers he would be 2 times stronger by the time the current arc begins.

[Zephyr]

Super Toei Chaozu
In the Saiyan arc, Chaozu was too weak to paralyze Nappa, and not by that much in the grand scheme of things. In Super, we see him paralyze Base Super Toei Goku.

Who is he on par with now?