Unpopular DB opinions

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Fri Feb 07, 2025 7:53 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 4:40 am And besides, Cell should have already died when Goku vaporized his head. What's one more asspull to add to the pile? :lol:
This is personally why I think Toriyama should've worded the explanation as "As long as 1 cell in [Cell's] body remained, [he] can regenerate from it." Saying it was in his head brought about a plot hole for no reason.

And, I don't know if it's a complete asspull that his body could do that, more of a previously-unexplained ability he was created with that even HE didn't know he had. At least, I believe he was surprised by it. He also said that because he had Saiyan DNA, his body gets stronger from every near-fatal blow, so I could believe that (due to almost dying) he'd get a big power boost from that & return to his perfect form. It's convenient, but it's believable given the circumstances & gave us Gohan's big moment.

I'd personally say the actual asspull of the scene is Cell just knowing how to do Instant Transmission just by watching Goku do it. I know the series has used the old "Copy what you see & you'll do it just fine" thing before (mainly for comedy), but I think this one was really dumb. A technique that Goku had to take a year to learn from a race of aliens on another planet is suddenly learned from a guy that saw Goku do it all of twice with no proper learning. It's worse than Vegeta somehow learning to sense ki just from being on Earth. It's the same series where in the next arc, Toriyama actually devoted some time to showing Gohan teaching Videl & Goten how to fly & the same arc where he had Goku teach Gohan how to go Super Saiyan. And then he repeats it in the next arc with Buu just knowing how to do it as well after blowing up the Earth, but that Buu's also just an agent of chaos who's very unpredictable, so it's just part of his insanity. Cell's not like that.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:04 am

Scsigs wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 7:53 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 4:40 am And besides, Cell should have already died when Goku vaporized his head. What's one more asspull to add to the pile? :lol:
This is personally why I think Toriyama should've worded the explanation as "As long as 1 cell in [Cell's] body remained, [he] can regenerate from it." Saying it was in his head brought about a plot hole for no reason.

And, I don't know if it's a complete asspull that his body could do that, more of a previously-unexplained ability he was created with that even HE didn't know he had. At least, I believe he was surprised by it. He also said that because he had Saiyan DNA, his body gets stronger from every near-fatal blow, so I could believe that (due to almost dying) he'd get a big power boost from that & return to his perfect form. It's convenient, but it's believable given the circumstances & gave us Gohan's big moment.

I'd personally say the actual asspull of the scene is Cell just knowing how to do Instant Transmission just by watching Goku do it. I know the series has used the old "Copy what you see & you'll do it just fine" thing before (mainly for comedy), but I think this one was really dumb. A technique that Goku had to take a year to learn from a race of aliens on another planet is suddenly learned from a guy that saw Goku do it all of twice with no proper learning. It's worse than Vegeta somehow learning to sense ki just from being on Earth. It's the same series where in the next arc, Toriyama actually devoted some time to showing Gohan teaching Videl & Goten how to fly & the same arc where he had Goku teach Gohan how to go Super Saiyan. And then he repeats it in the next arc with Buu just knowing how to do it as well after blowing up the Earth, but that Buu's also just an agent of chaos who's very unpredictable, so it's just part of his insanity. Cell's not like that.
True it makes literally no sense that Perfect Cell could just copy someone's technique simply by watching it twice.

So what if Cell watched Hit use his time-skip technique once? Would he be able to copy that too? A technique that Hit worked on and refined for 1,000 years? Is there a limit to this?

Cell is such a dumb character. Not only he has everyone's special technique but he can also figure out new techniques instantly and has regeneration on turbo mode. He sounds like an OC/fan fiction character. :lol:
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Jord » Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:18 am

dbs fanboy wrote: Thu Feb 06, 2025 7:28 pm
Chuquita wrote: Mon Feb 03, 2025 1:51 pm Agreed. It's depressing when you think about it.
So is Goku going off with Shenlong and vanishing for decades on end, making it the last time he sees most of his friends and family alive (depressing in a different way).

I wish he could've gotten his adult body back after the first arc of GT. Ssj4 temporarily gives it back, but not in the way I'd want (would prefer if ssj4 somehow permanently negated the wish's effects and when he drops back to base he's an adult again).
Honestly, it frustrated me a lot as a kid when Goku and co finally got the Dragon Balls back, and he decided to just stay a child.
Just go to Namek for Christ's sake!

Which makes me think, couldn't they have just gathered the regular dragon balls and used them to wish the black ones back to Earth?
Then we'd probably get the "That's beyond my power" excuse they used when Oolong was the only smart one and wished the dragon killed the Saiyans. (Heck, Shenron could at least have busted up their space shipts)

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:34 am

SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:04 am True it makes literally no sense that Perfect Cell could just copy someone's technique simply by watching it twice.

So what if Cell watched Hit use his time-skip technique once? Would he be able to copy that too? A technique that Hit worked on and refined for 1,000 years? Is there a limit to this?

Cell is such a dumb character. Not only he has everyone's special technique but he can also figure out new techniques instantly and has regeneration on turbo mode. He sounds like an OC/fan fiction character. :lol:
I mean, him having the techniques he did can be explained away with Dr. Gero having footage of the battles they fought after the Red Ribbon Army Arc on Earth. It's entirely plausible that he was programmed to do the techniques with the footage Gero had, though it's a dumb explanation.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by SupremeKai25 » Fri Feb 07, 2025 9:09 am

Scsigs wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:34 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 8:04 am True it makes literally no sense that Perfect Cell could just copy someone's technique simply by watching it twice.

So what if Cell watched Hit use his time-skip technique once? Would he be able to copy that too? A technique that Hit worked on and refined for 1,000 years? Is there a limit to this?

Cell is such a dumb character. Not only he has everyone's special technique but he can also figure out new techniques instantly and has regeneration on turbo mode. He sounds like an OC/fan fiction character. :lol:
I mean, him having the techniques he did can be explained away with Dr. Gero having footage of the battles they fought after the Red Ribbon Army Arc on Earth. It's entirely plausible that he was programmed to do the techniques with the footage Gero had, though it's a dumb explanation.
I thought Cell could use the techniques of the people whose cells are part of his body.

Regardless Black is a much more consistent villain than Cell. We know what Black's powers and limits are. These are set in stone and never change. He is a God who just stole a new body, so he can draw out the dormant power of the body. However he is also a mortal without any regenerative power, so he needs to stick close to his ally Zamasu or he's finished. Clear powers and clear limitations.

We are told that Cell needs Android 17 and 18 to achieve his perfect form. He loses 18 and his perfect form when Gohan induces him to vomit, but then he regains his perfect form despite 18 no longer being a part of his body ????

We are told, by Cell himself, that Cell can regenerate any body part as long as that core in his head remains intact. He does not possess some special kind of regeneration, he simply possesses Namekian regeneration that he got from Piccolo's cells. In other words, if his head is destroyed, he cannot regenerate. But then Cell regenerates after Goku vaporizes his head so ?????

We are told, again by Cell himself, that he can self-destruct like the other creations of Dr. Gero. Doing so will completely annihilate his body. Gone. Reduced to atoms. Bye. But then it turns out that his entire nucleus survived, so what does "destruction" mean to Cell and Dr. Gero???

I've read many times on this forum and Reddit the "criticism" that Black is just a lazy villain and Toriyama got inspired by those old evil Goku fanfictions. But from what I've seen, Black is a much better-written villain than Cell, with powers and weaknesses that are defined much better. It is Cell who feels like a fanfiction character, who can just do whatever he wants and bend the rules to suit him. Even just calling him a "character" is being generous.
At his core Zamasu is good like Shin, though I guess you could say he was so fastidious that it backfired. But you know, for this "Future Trunks Arc" you had to depict Zamasu and Trunks' inner conflict, right? If this was back when I was drawing the manga myself then I doubt if I could have done it. I mean, I'm not very good at depicting the characters' psychology on the page. So this all came together because now I only have to think up the story. [...] On my own, I doubt I would have been able to express Zamasu's fall to the dark side.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by WittyUsername » Fri Feb 07, 2025 5:42 pm

Scsigs wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 7:53 am
SupremeKai25 wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 4:40 am And besides, Cell should have already died when Goku vaporized his head. What's one more asspull to add to the pile? :lol:
This is personally why I think Toriyama should've worded the explanation as "As long as 1 cell in [Cell's] body remained, [he] can regenerate from it." Saying it was in his head brought about a plot hole for no reason.

And, I don't know if it's a complete asspull that his body could do that, more of a previously-unexplained ability he was created with that even HE didn't know he had. At least, I believe he was surprised by it. He also said that because he had Saiyan DNA, his body gets stronger from every near-fatal blow, so I could believe that (due to almost dying) he'd get a big power boost from that & return to his perfect form. It's convenient, but it's believable given the circumstances & gave us Gohan's big moment.

I'd personally say the actual asspull of the scene is Cell just knowing how to do Instant Transmission just by watching Goku do it. I know the series has used the old "Copy what you see & you'll do it just fine" thing before (mainly for comedy), but I think this one was really dumb. A technique that Goku had to take a year to learn from a race of aliens on another planet is suddenly learned from a guy that saw Goku do it all of twice with no proper learning. It's worse than Vegeta somehow learning to sense ki just from being on Earth. It's the same series where in the next arc, Toriyama actually devoted some time to showing Gohan teaching Videl & Goten how to fly & the same arc where he had Goku teach Gohan how to go Super Saiyan. And then he repeats it in the next arc with Buu just knowing how to do it as well after blowing up the Earth, but that Buu's also just an agent of chaos who's very unpredictable, so it's just part of his insanity. Cell's not like that.
The problem with the explanation for how Cell maintained his perfect form is that it begs the question of why barfing up #18 made him lose the form in the first place. Of course, the fact that he was able to barf up 18 at all is its own can of worms. Even putting aside the fact that she should’ve been too big to harmlessly just sit inside Cell’s body, shouldn’t she have been blown up when Goku destroyed Cell’s entire upper half?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Sat Feb 08, 2025 1:09 am

WittyUsername wrote: Fri Feb 07, 2025 5:42 pm The problem with the explanation for how Cell maintained his perfect form is that it begs the question of why barfing up #18 made him lose the form in the first place. Of course, the fact that he was able to barf up 18 at all is its own can of worms. Even putting aside the fact that she should’ve been too big to harmlessly just sit inside Cell’s body, shouldn’t she have been blown up when Goku destroyed Cell’s entire upper half?
Cell's physiology is for the most part unexplained. He's a cyborg made up of parts of the DNA of a lot of the main ensemble cast mixed with technology who was apparently made to absorb 17 & 18 to improve his design, he knows how to do a lot of their techniques due to having their DNA in them (though he'd have to know about the techniques beforehand to even remotely try to do them, which is why I think he must've been programmed with the videos Gero had of their battles in his brain), he can change his form into various bugs, he drinks people to gain their strength to make himself more powerful, & he can get stronger after sustaining large amounts of damage like any Saiyan. The main thing about his absorption is that, yeah, he shouldn't be able to barf up 18, as his absorption power seems to break down who he absorbs so he can make their DNA part of himself. However, considering he bulked up a lot before Gohan hit him so hard that he puked up 18, I guess the logic is that he was big enough so that 18 somehow reformed in him so he could do it? I don't know. It's left up to ambiguity. I personally don't think it's out of the realm of possibility, but it stretches suspension of disbelief a lot. And, I think Toriyama even acknowledged it as being weird with the characters being shocked that it happened in-universe.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Dragon Ball Ireland » Sat Feb 08, 2025 7:57 am

The Big Green dub isn't awful. The problem with a lot of the voices is that they are unfitting and rushed, not necessarily bad.

The Speedy dub is infinitely worse, as us like the Big Green dub it's clear a lot of that cast aren't native English speakers.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dbs fanboy » Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:55 am

Lately I've been seeing a rise of the notion that the only reason Toriyama wrote some good arcs was due to his editors and that the reason some if his pitched ideas suck is because he didn't have anyone to reel him in nowadays.

While I do agree that an issue with Modern Dragon Ball is Toyotaro/Toei being too afraid of going against Toriyama's vision and thus keeping things too safe.

I disagree with the notion that Toriyama is only good with an editor.

The reason being that the Cell arc, imo, ended up being so messy due to all the changes Toriyama made after receiving criticism from Torishima.

Thinking about his original concept for the Saga, I think he really had something interesting in mind.

Dr Gero was a villain that had a direct connection with Goku and with the reveals about 16 being modeled after his son, it could have made things take a pretty personal turn.

Him and android 19 as antagonists also solves the issue a lot of people had with the concept of a Scientist on Earth making something stronger than a Super Saiyan.

Between the fact they had been studying the cast and their moves for decades, lack of ki making them undetectable and their Energy absorbtion abilities, they pretty much were a perfect counter to our warriors.

The arc genuinely could have been much more interesting than what we got.

Toriyama is not a complex great writer, sure I'll give you that, but I grow tired of the notion that he was a shitty writer and that the only reason Dragon Balm took off was due to fights. I see this notion repeated especially among younger fans in the franchise.

Seriously, some peeps should genui just pick the manga.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Sat Feb 08, 2025 10:24 am

dbs fanboy wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:55 am

The reason being that the Cell arc, imo, ended up being so messy due to all the changes Toriyama made after receiving criticism from Torishima.

Thinking about his original concept for the Saga, I think he really had something interesting in mind.

Dr Gero was a villain that had a direct connection with Goku and with the reveals about 16 being modeled after his son, it could have made things take a pretty personal turn.
Okay but

1. Gero being the previously unseen and unmentioned mad scientist behind the Red Ribbon Army's weapons hardly qualifies as a personal connection.

2. 16 wasn't part of the original concept

3. There wasn't a reveal that 16 was modeled after Gero's dead son in the actual story. It was something Toriyama said in an interview years after the fact and was treated with as much reverence as oh bee tee dubs 17 and 18's real names are Lapis and Lazuli. It was pretty stupidly recent when it finally made it to non- ancillary material in Super Hero...in a blink and miss it moment.

Him and android 19 as antagonists also solves the issue a lot of people had with the concept of a Scientist on Earth making something stronger than a Super Saiyan.

Between the fact they had been studying the cast and their moves for decades, lack of ki making them undetectable and their Energy absorbtion abilities, they pretty much were a perfect counter to our warriors.

The arc genuinely could have been much more interesting than what we got.

Toriyama is not a complex great writer, sure I'll give you that, but I grow tired of the notion that he was a shitty writer and that the only reason Dragon Balm took off was due to fights. I see this notion repeated especially among younger fans in the franchise.

Seriously, some peeps should genui just pick the manga.
Idk "the story would have been better if Torishima and Kondo kept their mouths shut" always felt like a massive cope to me. Some preconceived notion that editorial feedback automatically equals bad. Forgetting Dragon Ball wouldn't have survived past the first couple of years if Torishima didn't say "Make it more like Fist of North Star" Krillin wouldn't exist if Torshima didn't point out Goku wasn't interesting enough on his own and needed a foil. And Vegeta's increased prominence in the Namek arc onward and more relationship stuff seemed to be a Yu Kondo thing.

Of course it's a stupid argument to say "Toriyama is only a good writer with editors" ...those editors didn't write those stories. But it is accurate to say Dragon Ball was better for Toriyama having listened to his editors. Even if you dislike the Cell arc the generally agreed upon golden era of Dragon Ball, the Piccolo Daimao to Namek arcs, was because of Toriyama taking the story in the direction he was told to by his editors.

As far as the Android arc is concerned 19 and 20 were lame villains (and 20 likely wasn't supposed to be Gero until plans changed) and the story was more interesting if a bit messier for changing course. Don't know what was particularly engaging about Fat China Doll and Old Geezer robots suck Ki.

There's also the fact that Torishima was no longer Toriyama's editor by that point and Toriyama only took his feedback to heart out of respect for his input than actual orders.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dbs fanboy » Sat Feb 08, 2025 11:31 am

MasenkoHA wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 10:24 am
dbs fanboy wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:55 am

The reason being that the Cell arc, imo, ended up being so messy due to all the changes Toriyama made after receiving criticism from Torishima.

Thinking about his original concept for the Saga, I think he really had something interesting in mind.

Dr Gero was a villain that had a direct connection with Goku and with the reveals about 16 being modeled after his son, it could have made things take a pretty personal turn.
Okay but

1. Gero being the previously unseen and unmentioned mad scientist behind the Red Ribbon Army's weapons hardly qualifies as a personal connection.

2. 16 wasn't part of the original concept

3. There wasn't a reveal that 16 was modeled after Gero's dead son in the actual story. It was something Toriyama said in an interview years after the fact and was treated with as much reverence as oh bee tee dubs 17 and 18's real names are Lapis and Lazuli. It was pretty stupidly recent when it finally made it to non- ancillary material in Super Hero...in a blink and miss it moment.

Him and android 19 as antagonists also solves the issue a lot of people had with the concept of a Scientist on Earth making something stronger than a Super Saiyan.

Between the fact they had been studying the cast and their moves for decades, lack of ki making them undetectable and their Energy absorbtion abilities, they pretty much were a perfect counter to our warriors.

The arc genuinely could have been much more interesting than what we got.

Toriyama is not a complex great writer, sure I'll give you that, but I grow tired of the notion that he was a shitty writer and that the only reason Dragon Balm took off was due to fights. I see this notion repeated especially among younger fans in the franchise.

Seriously, some peeps should genui just pick the manga.
Idk "the story would have been better if Torishima and Kondo kept their mouths shut" always felt like a massive cope to me. Some preconceived notion that editorial feedback automatically equals bad. Forgetting Dragon Ball wouldn't have survived past the first couple of years if Torishima didn't say "Make it more like Fist of North Star" Krillin wouldn't exist if Torshima didn't point out Goku wasn't interesting enough on his own and needed a foil. And Vegeta's increased prominence in the Namek arc onward and more relationship stuff seemed to be a Yu Kondo thing.

Of course it's a stupid argument to say "Toriyama is only a good writer with editors" ...those editors didn't write those stories. But it is accurate to say Dragon Ball was better for Toriyama having listened to his editors. Even if you dislike the Cell arc the generally agreed upon golden era of Dragon Ball, the Piccolo Daimao to Namek arcs, was because of Toriyama taking the story in the direction he was told to by his editors.

As far as the Android arc is concerned 19 and 20 were lame villains (and 20 likely wasn't supposed to be Gero until plans changed) and the story was more interesting if a bit messier for changing course. Don't know what was particularly engaging about Fat China Doll and Old Geezer robots suck Ki.

There's also the fact that Torishima was no longer Toriyama's editor by that point and Toriyama only took his feedback to heart out of respect for his input than actual orders.
Well I guess I'm wrong about 16 but my point still stands.

Fyi tho I actually liked the Cell/androids arc, but during my rereads now that I'm older I noticed the inconsistencies more and knowing how many changes Toriyama did I thought to myself that it was no wonder those flaws existed in the first place.

And then when rereading some of the OG context I just found them to be actually pretty interesting and not as messy.

I do agree Toriyama's editors input were important to the franchise, but there are points in which I think the input was kinda detrimental.

I mean I find it silly to botch down an idea because the character is an old guy, and there definitely aspects of Dragon Ball that ended up working for the better because Toriyama did his thing and didn't listen to the input sometimes, like aging Goku up.

I guess my point is, with all of this that while Toriyama was no masterclass genious, he genuinely did write interesting stuff from time to time, and some of the formulaic issues people getting introduced to Dragon ball have (especially when they are introduced through Z) are generally inconsistencies behind scenes and not Toriyama being a shitty writer or something.

Dragon Ball is not a deep story, but is not as thoughtless as the modern notion I see among new fans.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by OhHiRenan » Sat Feb 08, 2025 4:43 pm

dbs fanboy wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:55 am Lately I've been seeing a rise of the notion that the only reason Toriyama wrote some good arcs was due to his editors and that the reason some if his pitched ideas suck is because he didn't have anyone to reel him in nowadays.
People in general have been underrating Toriyama's talent for years. He's clearly a much more thoughtful and considerate writer than most people realize – you can see that clearly in how the manga manages to be extremely consistent with all its themes from start to finish while also just doing an incredible job of using the artistic medium of manga to tell a story.

Random example, but I've been re-reading the manga recently and read through Chapter 154 recently where Tenshinhan & Goku both fight Drum. What I find compelling about this chapter is that it opens with Ten struggling against Drum and ends with Goku effortlessly defeating Drum. Since Goku & Tenshinhan were equal in strength during the 22nd TB, the first half of the chapter basically shows us how Goku would have done immediately after the tournament only to show us how strong he is now. The story never makes any direct comparisons or commentary here, but to me, it feels like an obvious artistic decision from Toriyama to frame the chapter around.

I know that's a minor, little example, but I think it shows that Toriyama was really thinking through his best material where it matters and wasn't just throwing things on the page randomly or because his editors were steering him.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by jjgp1112 » Sat Feb 08, 2025 5:55 pm

I think the bigger issue is that Toriyama was a discovery writer who stumbled into interesting storylines, not to menton was a master of telling stories through fights, and so having to just outline a story from beginning to middle to end and leaving the fights as just "Stuff happens" in between exposition pretty much kneecaps a lot of what makes DB work. It explains stuff like the weird back and forth of fighting and retreating in the Zamasu arc, for example.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by dbs fanboy » Sun Feb 09, 2025 9:01 am

jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 5:55 pm I think the bigger issue is that Toriyama was a discovery writer who stumbled into interesting storylines, not to menton was a master of telling stories through fights, and so having to just outline a story from beginning to middle to end and leaving the fights as just "Stuff happens" in between exposition pretty much kneecaps a lot of what makes DB work. It explains stuff like the weird back and forth of fighting and retreating in the Zamasu arc, for example.
Totally this, I remember he said in an interview that it was more comfortable for him that way since now when a fight occurs you just *insert cool Sakuga scene*.

I guess this actually would mean that Dragon Ball is good for it's fights, but not because of a superficial/reductive reason.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by OhHiRenan » Sun Feb 09, 2025 4:18 pm

jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 5:55 pm I think the bigger issue is that Toriyama was a discovery writer who stumbled into interesting storylines, not to menton was a master of telling stories through fights, and so having to just outline a story from beginning to middle to end and leaving the fights as just "Stuff happens" in between exposition pretty much kneecaps a lot of what makes DB work. It explains stuff like the weird back and forth of fighting and retreating in the Zamasu arc, for example.
Again, though, this just highlights my point about how people underestimate Toriyama severely. He was a discovery writer, but that does not mean he was just randomly stumbling into storylines. He was follows his characters' authentic actions and links that back to the story's themes, allowing those two details to weave the narrative more than anything – but he is clearly thinking these things through more than he lets on. I won't touch on Super, since he didn't actually write that himself, but let's look at the 22nd TB.

I would argue that there are three themes which define Dragon Ball as a story: self-betterment for self-betterment’s sake, accepting that there will always be someone better, and passing the torch onto the next generation. Through Tenshinhan, the 22nd Tenkaichi Budokai is able to embody each of the series’ three core tenets, crafting one of the most thematically cohesive arcs in the franchise, but it's really his fight with Goku that ties his development together.

Goku represents the steadfast philosophy of Kame Sen’nin, fighting for the pure thrill of battle while bettering himself in every sense along the way. Tenshinhan represents the fragile philosophy of Tsuru Sen’nin, fighting for domination and to kill, but insecure enough to linger on the words of the Muten Roshi; together, they are the next generation, paving the way for the future of martial arts; and against one another, they are the someone better preventing each other from stagnation.

Most importantly, Goku’s fight with Tenshinhan demonstrates just how well Dragon Ball develops its cast through action. While the fight is rooted in the series’ themes, it is implicitly about Tenshinhan’s redemption. Each major beat of the fight features Ten slowly stripping away his Crane School way of thought. Initially, he fights Goku with the intention of killing him. After Goku reveals that he was holding back & starts using his full strength, Tenshinhan cannot help but feel excited at the prospect of being challenged by Goku. Once Chaozu begins to interfere with the fight by paralyzing Goku, Tenshinhan finally admits to himself, and to his master, that what matters most to him is fighting and winning legitimately.

Tenshinhan does not want the Crane School to interfere, he does not want Goku to die, and he no longer wants to be an assassin. In fighting Goku, Ten gradually realizes what it means to be a pure martial artist. That said, this is not Tenshinhan embracing Kame Sen’nin’s philosophy. While it does influence his decision to abandon Tsuru Sen’nin, he rejects both schools of thought, fighting purely for himself. In that sense, Tenshinhan ushers in the next generation of martial arts, relying not on established philosophies, but still taking enough influence to honor the past while walking his own path.

There is a theatrical quality to how Toriyama develops his characters. Dragon Ball does not linger overtly on Tenshinhan’s development, letting nuance run its course. His beats of development are often relegated to single panels, quickly showing how Goku is influencing him. Toriyama’s simpler take gives Ten’s growth a considerable amount of humanity. Kame Sen’nin’s words clearly shook him during the semi-finals, and everything Goku does in the final match serves to push Tenshinhan as a martial artist and a person.

Even later DB arcs like the Freeza arc do a great job at paralleling details like Goku and Piccolo's own heritages.

Piccolo spends most of the Freeza arc out of commission, which can make his sudden re-introduction for the final battle a little odd. It's not random, though, and bringing Piccolo in for the battle against Freeza serves a few crucial thematic purposes. For one, it's just important that a Namekian gets to fight Freeza. Although Piccolo doesn't manage to beat him, he proves that Freeza underestimated the Namekians. More importantly, Piccolo's arc in the Namek saga is a mirror of Goku's.

Both Piccolo and Goku begin the Saiyan arc by learning they are aliens. During the Freeza arc, they learn more about their roots and come to embrace them in a symbolic transformation. Where Goku literally transforms into a Super Saiyan, Piccolo "transforms" into a new being by assimilating Nail. Fusing with Nail also gives Piccolo his memories and a deeper understanding of Namekian culture, which he brings into his battle against Freeza.

Piccolo goes from a Namekian who forgot his name, to a Demon King & God, and finally a redeemed warrior who returns to his homeworld to fight on its behalf. Piccolo doesn't have the deepest connection to Freeza, but after everything the Namekians suffered, it's cathartic that it's a Namek who pushes Freeza to actually take their battle seriously. There's also a nice parallel during the final battle where Piccolo briefly stalls Freeza as Goku charges the Spirit Bomb, not unlike when Goku stalled Raditz for Piccolo at the start of the Saiyan arc.

I'm confident someone will say I'm reading into things too much, but in my opinion, people don't read into Dragon Ball or Akira Toriyama's writing nearly enough.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Mon Feb 10, 2025 3:58 pm

Others have responded to this already, but I thought to throw my hat into the ring.
dbs fanboy wrote: Sat Feb 08, 2025 9:55 am Lately I've been seeing a rise of the notion that the only reason Toriyama wrote some good arcs was due to his editors and that the reason some if his pitched ideas suck is because he didn't have anyone to reel him in nowadays.

While I do agree that an issue with Modern Dragon Ball is Toyotaro/Toei being too afraid of going against Toriyama's vision and thus keeping things too safe.

I disagree with the notion that Toriyama is only good with an editor.

The reason being that the Cell arc, imo, ended up being so messy due to all the changes Toriyama made after receiving criticism from Torishima.

Thinking about his original concept for the Saga, I think he really had something interesting in mind.

Dr Gero was a villain that had a direct connection with Goku and with the reveals about 16 being modeled after his son, it could have made things take a pretty personal turn.

Him and android 19 as antagonists also solves the issue a lot of people had with the concept of a Scientist on Earth making something stronger than a Super Saiyan.

Between the fact they had been studying the cast and their moves for decades, lack of ki making them undetectable and their Energy absorption abilities, they pretty much were a perfect counter to our warriors.

The arc genuinely could have been much more interesting than what we got.

Toriyama is not a complex great writer, sure I'll give you that, but I grow tired of the notion that he was a shitty writer and that the only reason Dragon Ball took off was due to fights. I see this notion repeated especially among younger fans in the franchise.

Seriously, some peeps should genuinely just pick the manga.
I agree for the most part. Toriyama, even when he wasn't being edited upon by his editors, was a very good writer for the most part. However, not without his faults. Dragon Ball initially continued the gag manga roots he'd had with his previous series like Dr. Slump & would continue during & after with his various one-shots & later series, but quickly grew to develop a more serious tone with comedic elements instead. And he managed to do so pretty well, tbh. However, when he started to really influence his intended characterization for Goku in the Cell Saga is where I think his first true misstep of the franchise is. He managed to somewhat save it by turning it into a character arc for Goku, but the road there is pretty rough & I think if Toriyama had planned out that arc more than probably the vague ideas he had when going into it, he could've done it better. Then the Majin Buu arc has various tone shifts from Toriyama trying to influence more comedy & reintroduce more of the mystic element the series used to have, as well as other things which created a very uneven story arc that creates mixed reactions to this day.

That being said, I don't think any other writer for the anime content since the start of Z has been able to hit the same resonance Toriyama has with content for it for the most part. Out of the last 4 movies, only 1 is in any way bad whereas the movies that came beforehand were hit or miss more often than not, & Super was only not as good as it could've been because the anime writers had no idea how to properly write Goku or Vegeta's characters (Goku's most likely in an over reactive move to Toriyama criticizing the Z anime for changing his character into a more stereotypical hero type) & they fluctuated with adapting Toriyama's story arc outlines into actual episodes of the show. I really wish Toriyama was more directly consulted with the Super anime so they could get his ideas out better. I also think that not all of Toriyama's things he had in Super were great. Resurrection F wasn't a good story & I think he could've made it better if he contributed to the show, the decision to make Goku not know what kissing was as a dumb joke that doesn't make any sense, & the whole end to the Future Trunks Arc is legit 1 of if not the worst ending of any arc in Dragon Ball. I think that if the anime producers had conversations with him about those things, they could've improved upon them a lot.

As for the things with the Android Arc you pointed out, had Gero & 19 stayed the main antagonists of the arc, yeah, maybe we could've had a more personal story, but to remember these things that I think some others have pointed out by now, but I think you may be romanticizing the idea of what-ifs. Because Toriyama always wrote as he went, he most likely didn't have many ideas of where he wanted to go with the stories he wrote until he got to certain points. I doubt outside of a few ideas he had in mind to later develop, he really knew where the whole thing was going. And, I don't think the additional time travel or 16, 17, 18, or Cell were really bad additions to the arc. You can tell that they were definitely last minute additions, but they helped make that arc unique & I don't think it's a bad thing that they were added to the story.

16 being based on Gero's son, I'm pretty sure, was thought up by Toriyama years later. Had Toriyama thought it up when he was still writing the manga, I'm sure a reference to it would've been made. Same with 17 & 18's real names of Lapis & Lazuli. Thinking that it would've or could've played a part in the arc as it was originally going to is just silly.

Anyone who thinks that Dragon Ball only "got good" when Toriyama introduced the martial arts are people who have very poor media literacy skills. I think this mainly comes from the Western fanbase who got introduced to Z before the original series who also haven't read the manga or watched the shows in proper production order. It's an incredibly ignorant viewpoint that completely ignores how the series started & doesn't take into account its time frame or what mangas were like at the time. Toriyama had a good amount of writing skill early on in Dragon Ball that a lot of people just miss because they don't bother to check out the earlier parts of the manga or the first anime series. And, Toriyama wasn't without his faults, but because Dragon Ball has resonated with many people over the last 40+ years all over the world, I think there's a lot more to it than the fights.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Feb 10, 2025 4:27 pm

Scsigs wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 3:58 pm

Anyone who thinks that Dragon Ball only "got good" when Toriyama introduced the martial arts
So......like the first chapter?

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by Scsigs » Mon Feb 10, 2025 6:39 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 4:27 pm
Scsigs wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 3:58 pm Anyone who thinks that Dragon Ball only "got good" when Toriyama introduced the martial arts
So......like the first chapter?
You know what I mean. You're right though. I should've probably specified when the series introduced the more overt focus on the martial arts since it WAS there from the beginning.
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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by MasenkoHA » Mon Feb 10, 2025 10:10 pm

Scsigs wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 6:39 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 4:27 pm
Scsigs wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 3:58 pm Anyone who thinks that Dragon Ball only "got good" when Toriyama introduced the martial arts
So......like the first chapter?
You know what I mean. You're right though. I should've probably specified when the series introduced the more overt focus on the martial arts since it WAS there from the beginning.
The more overt focus on martial arts was still the second arc. I dunno, even if people didn't think Dragon Ball "got good" until the switch to more martial arts that's still pretty early into the series run.

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Re: Unpopular DB opinions

Post by JulieYBM » Mon Feb 10, 2025 10:59 pm

MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 10:10 pm
Scsigs wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 6:39 pm
MasenkoHA wrote: Mon Feb 10, 2025 4:27 pm
So......like the first chapter?
You know what I mean. You're right though. I should've probably specified when the series introduced the more overt focus on the martial arts since it WAS there from the beginning.
The more overt focus on martial arts was still the second arc. I dunno, even if people didn't think Dragon Ball "got good" until the switch to more martial arts that's still pretty early into the series run.
The popularity is actually discussed a bit in Dragon Ball Landmark. According to the notes, the series began growing in popularity by the ending of the first hunt for the Dragon Balls.
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