Unpopular DB opinions

[Majin Buu]

I'm also seconding MasenkoHA on the case of the Daimaou arc. It feels bigger in scale in the anime.

Thirded. The anime gives you a better sense of how Piccolo's actions affect the world for that reason. In comparison, his coup feels like more of an afterthought in the manga.

[Scsigs]

This is in response from reading some of the posts on the previous page...

Like, I'm sure it's just a preference thing, but I genuinely don't understand the hate for SS God & Blue. The point of God is that it's not supposed to look very different from someone's base form (which, it actually does, since not only does their hair change color, but so do their eyes & their builds get more lean), but looks are deceiving because it gives the user an immense power boost. Blue is supposed to be a version of the form where your Super Saiyan form fuses with God & you get that. It's a more combat-focused version of the form where you can more readily use that power & longer. It's not supposed to be much different than normal Super Saiyan.
Like, I get how that can be disappointing, but to outright hate these forms is incredibly stupid.

And, I'm not saying that I don't get why people love SS4 more, as I also love SS4. It's the best thing to come from GT, it's very visually cool & striking, & Daima's rendition of it is also very good. However, the forms go for different things in terms of design aspects. SS4 tries to marry the Oozaru form with Super Saiyan. It's meaning to be more primal & beastly whereas God & Blue are meaning to be more elegant & deceiving in appearance with more raw power accessible.

You can like each for different reasons & you can like certain ones more than others for the reasons you do, but I have a hard time seeing the complains about God or Blue.

[SupremeKai25]

This is in response from reading some of the posts on the previous page...

Like, I'm sure it's just a preference thing, but I genuinely don't understand the hate for SS God & Blue. The point of God is that it's not supposed to look very different from someone's base form (which, it actually does, since not only does their hair change color, but so do their eyes & their builds get more lean), but looks are deceiving because it gives the user an immense power boost. Blue is supposed to be a version of the form where your Super Saiyan form fuses with God & you get that. It's a more combat-focused version of the form where you can more readily use that power & longer. It's not supposed to be much different than normal Super Saiyan.
Like, I get how that can be disappointing, but to outright hate these forms is incredibly stupid.

And, I'm not saying that I don't get why people love SS4 more, as I also love SS4. It's the best thing to come from GT, it's very visually cool & striking, & Daima's rendition of it is also very good. However, the forms go for different things in terms of design aspects. SS4 tries to marry the Oozaru form with Super Saiyan. It's meaning to be more primal & beastly whereas God & Blue are meaning to be more elegant & deceiving in appearance with more raw power accessible.

You can like each for different reasons & you can like certain ones more than others for the reasons you do, but I have a hard time seeing the complains about God or Blue.

This fandom is very nostalgic. SSJ3 is a good form because "well you expect Goku to get a new form after training in the other world", but SSB is an "asspull" even though Goku trained with Lord Beerus and Whis on their planet for weeks/months.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

SSJ3 is a good form because "well you expect Goku to get a new form after training in the other world", but SSB is an "asspull" even though Goku trained with Lord Beerus and Whis on their planet for weeks/months.

People have three issues with blue:

1- It's one of the ugliest designs in animation history.

2- What is it exactly ? Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan ? what the hell ? That sounds like a meme. Why not SsjG 2 ?

3- We just got SsjG and very little was done with it, so why not have that be the form they learned with Whis ? As in learning to access it without the ritual ?

[SupremeKai25]

SSJ3 is a good form because "well you expect Goku to get a new form after training in the other world", but SSB is an "asspull" even though Goku trained with Lord Beerus and Whis on their planet for weeks/months.

People have three issues with blue:

1- It's one of the ugliest designs in animation history.

2- What is it exactly ? Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan ? what the hell ? That sounds like a meme. Why not SsjG 2 ?

3- We just got SsjG and very little was done with it, so why not have that be the form they learned with Whis ? As in learning to access it without the ritual ?

1 is an irrelevant point since it's a matter of taste and has nothing to do with the writing, 2 is easily answered by just paying attention to the story, 3 is hypocritical when SSG got the same amount of spotlight as SSJ2 did (putting up a long battle against the main antagonist) before it was superseded by SSJ3.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

SSG got the same amount of spotlight as SSJ2 did (putting up a long battle against the main antagonist) before it was superseded by SSJ3.

Ssj2 was in the climax of the Cell arc where it won a main battle.
It was the form Gohan used to kill Bojack in Z's 9th movie.
It was the form Gohan used to fight Broly in Z's 10th movie.
Goku and Vegeta used it during their rematch in the Buu arc.
Vegeta used it against Buu when he sacrificed himself.

SsjG was used once, and it got nothing done. Did we really need a new form so soon ?

[SupremeKai25]

SSG got the same amount of spotlight as SSJ2 did (putting up a long battle against the main antagonist) before it was superseded by SSJ3.

Ssj2 was in the climax of the Cell arc where it won a main battle.
It was the form Gohan used to kill Bojack in Z's 9th movie.
It was the form Gohan used to fight Broly in Z's 10th movie.
Goku and Vegeta used it during their rematch in the Buu arc.
Vegeta used it against Buu when he sacrificed himself.

SsjG was used once, and it got nothing done. Did we really need a new form so soon ?

"SSJG got nothing done"

You mean, aside from convincing Beerus that the Earth should be spared? Which was the problem of the whole movie?

That SSJG failed to kill the antagonist and still saved the day is simply proof that Super has more complexity to it than old DBZ. Saving the day in a unique way, instead of a drawn-out and epilepsy-inducing sequence.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

SSJG failed to kill the antagonist and still saved the day is simply proof that Super has more complexity to it than old DBZ.

I have no issue with this, in fact it's the best part of the movie, but it also shows there was so much more that could've been done with the form.

[ABED]

While the RoF arc in Super took a bad movie and made it worse, the BoG arc is quite enjoyable.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

While the RoF arc in Super took a bad movie and made it worse, the BoG arc is quite enjoyable.

I never understood why they reanimated everything from scratch. Why not use the movies as a base and animate new scenes around them ? That's what Boruto and Demon Slayer did when they turned their movies into episodes.

[BernardoCairo]

I never understood why they reanimated everything from scratch. Why not use the movies as a base and animate new scenes around them ?

Perhaps because of copyright issues with Fox and/or other parties that own the rights to the film.

[Cybersai]

God forms being so above Buu saga power levels was a mistake. It's what made characters fighting alongside Goku/Vegeta like Future Trunks in the Zamasu arc and then Android 17 in the tournament of power make no sense.

If Goku/Vegeta are scaled so far above everyone else, how on earth can everyone else fight alongside them? Future Trunks was Super Saiyan 2 level, Android 17 got stronger by not fighting for 10+ years?

[tonysoprano300]

What were the nature of the contributions anyway? I'm not too knowledgeable about this but from what I recall the suggestions in the Cell arc were more so "Hey I don't like this villain" or "This form looks ugly". That definitely changes things for sure but those insights feel very superficial, things you can adjust without massively changing your overall vision. Which is maybe(I could be wrong) why the Cell arc escalation feels natural and organic. You go from 19&20 to 17&18 to Cell without ever really questioning if all of it was planned from the get go.

Its hard to really diagnose what went wrong with Super, my guess is that providing bullet points is not the same as penning a story yourself.

[SupremeKai25]

What were the nature of the contributions anyway? I'm not too knowledgeable about this but from what I recall the suggestions in the Cell arc were more so "Hey I don't like this villain" or "This form looks ugly". That definitely changes things for sure but those insights feel very superficial, things you can adjust without massively changing your overall vision. Which is maybe(I could be wrong) why the Cell arc escalation feels natural and organic. You go from 19&20 to 17&18 to Cell without ever really questioning if all of it was planned from the get go.

Its hard to really diagnose what went wrong with Super, my guess is that providing bullet points is not the same as penning a story yourself.

"Bullet points" is a fan-made term. I don't recall seeing any interview where this term appeared. On the contrary, I have seen at least two interviews where it was made clear that Toriyama's writing the story, with some input from others (as it was in the original).

[tonysoprano300]

What were the nature of the contributions anyway? I'm not too knowledgeable about this but from what I recall the suggestions in the Cell arc were more so "Hey I don't like this villain" or "This form looks ugly". That definitely changes things for sure but those insights feel very superficial, things you can adjust without massively changing your overall vision. Which is maybe(I could be wrong) why the Cell arc escalation feels natural and organic. You go from 19&20 to 17&18 to Cell without ever really questioning if all of it was planned from the get go.

Its hard to really diagnose what went wrong with Super, my guess is that providing bullet points is not the same as penning a story yourself.

"Bullet points" is a fan-made term. I don't recall seeing any interview where this term appeared. On the contrary, I have seen at least two interviews where it was made clear that Toriyama's writing the story, with some input from others (as it was in the original).

Well whatever the appropriate term is, just saying that its not like classic DB where Toriyama is personally penning the story from start to finish. Idk if this is even the problem to be clear, just speculation

[Scsigs]

People have three issues with blue:

1- It's one of the ugliest designs in animation history.

2- What is it exactly ? Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan ? what the hell ? That sounds like a meme. Why not SsjG 2 ?

3- We just got SsjG and very little was done with it, so why not have that be the form they learned with Whis ? As in learning to access it without the ritual ?

1. "Ugliest design in animation history"? Are you on crack? SS1 with blue hair instead of blonde. HOW is that ugly?
2. Literally rewatch the RF movie & Super. The full name literally describes it.
3. SS God was literally used for the fight with Beerus because he was told of it coming around by the oracle fish & wanted to fight it. However, it has its limits. SSGSS/blue is literally a more tactical version of it, allowing them to access the God ki in a more controllable form. These things aren't hard to piece together if you just watch the damn movies & absorb what Toriyama wrote in them.

What were the nature of the contributions anyway? I'm not too knowledgeable about this but from what I recall the suggestions in the Cell arc were more so "Hey I don't like this villain" or "This form looks ugly". That definitely changes things for sure but those insights feel very superficial, things you can adjust without massively changing your overall vision. Which is maybe (I could be wrong) why the Cell arc escalation feels natural and organic. You go from 19 & 20 to 17 & 18 to Cell without ever really questioning if all of it was planned from the get go.

Its hard to really diagnose what went wrong with Super, my guess is that providing bullet points is not the same as penning a story yourself.

Toriyama wrote plot outlines, contributed to characterizations, dialogue, & jokes, & told them how he wanted certain things to play out. It's WAY more than bullet points, especially if you compare the anime & manga versions of the storylines. Like, for instance, the anime staff originally wrote Jiren WAY differently than Toriyama wanted him to be portrayed, so he corrected them to what he wanted. He also contributed the dumb joke about Goku not knowing what kissing was, which was on-brand for Toriyama, but also completely stupid from a logistical standpoint. Outlines are completely different from bullet points if you've never had to read or write one.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

"Ugliest design in animation history"? Are you on crack? SS1 with blue hair instead of blonde. HOW is that ugly?

The shade of blue looks cheap, and there's zero color balance when combined with Goku and Vegeta's old outfits. It's even worse with Vegeta's evolved form.

Literally rewatch the RF movie & Super. The full name literally describes it.

A Ssj with the power of a SsjG. That makes no sense. You're either a Ssj or you're a SsjG. Imagine if we got a Super Saiyan 4 Super Saiyan ? Why not just call the damn thing SsjG2 ?

SS God was literally used for the fight with Beerus because he was told of it coming around by the oracle fish & wanted to fight it. However, it has its limits. SSGSS/blue is literally a more tactical version of it, allowing them to access the God ki in a more controllable form.

Wouldn't it make sense to train SsjG to eliminate those limits, like how Goku trained his Ssj1 before the Cell games ? I don't see why they needed a whole new form just to be more tactical, when SsjG could've easily filled that role. In BOG, SsjG couldn't be reached without the need of 5 other Saiyans and it had a very short time limit. Why not use the next movie to explore those drawbacks and show Goku and Vegeta overcoming them ? There's no need for a new form so soon. Heck, I feel that SsjG and GT's Ssj4 were introduced too soon considering Ssj3 wasn't fully utilized yet. It wasn't until Daima that I feel comfortable moving away from Ssj3, as it finally got some well deserved screen time.

These things aren't hard to piece together if you just watch the damn movies & absorb what Toriyama wrote in them.

No one said they were hard to piece together, they're just bad writing. Just because Toriyama wrote it doesn't mean we can't call it out.

[SupremeKai25]

"Ugliest design in animation history"? Are you on crack? SS1 with blue hair instead of blonde. HOW is that ugly?

The shade of blue looks cheap, and there's zero color balance when combined with Goku and Vegeta's old outfits. It's even worse with Vegeta's evolved form.

There's nothing that can be said here.

If you think blue's an ugly colour, then blue's an ugly colour. If there was someone who loved blue, that form would be their favourite one. It's an utterly irrelevant thing to bring up. What do you expect to be told? If your taste is that blue is a trash colour, then so be it. Not really sure what argument I'm supposed to bring up here, or how that's a relevant point to bring up at all.

The point that you missed is that simple colours changes are ingrained in Dragon Ball with SSJ1.

You're either a Ssj or you're a SsjG.

You don't write the rules of the story, Toriyama does. If Toriyama decided that SSJ and SSJG can be mixed, then those are the rules that you have to adhere by.

The visual already conveys this rule quite clearly, with SSJG Goku having Base Goku's hairstyle, while SSJB Goku has SS1 Goku's hairstyle.

Wouldn't it make sense to train SsjG to eliminate those limits, like how Goku trained his Ssj1 before the Cell games ? I don't see why they needed a whole new form just to be more tactical, when SsjG could've easily filled that role. In BOG, SsjG couldn't be reached without the need of 5 other Saiyans and it had a very short time limit. Why not use the next movie to explore those drawbacks and show Goku and Vegeta overcoming them ? There's no need for a new form so soon. Heck, I feel that SsjG and GT's Ssj4 were introduced too soon considering Ssj3 wasn't fully utilized yet. It wasn't until Daima that I feel comfortable moving away from Ssj3, as it finally got some well deserved screen time.

Because SSJ2 was so very explored, right? I mean, the Buu saga explored all the drawbacks, limitations, and rules of SSJ2, yes? We had entire scenes/training sessions where the characters analysed SSJ2 and how it could be evolved, right?

NOPE. You're kidding yourself if you seriously think this.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

If Toriyama decided that SSJ and SSJG can be mixed, then those are the rules that you have to adhere by.

Unless I'm Daima, in that case I can pretend it never happened and go with a revamped Ssj4 instead.

Because SSJ2 was so very explored, right?

Ssj2 was a more straightforward form, there was nothing worth exploring exactly, but it was fully utilized before the next form (ssj3) was introduced. It one a main battle against Cell, It won a main battle against Bojack, Gohan used it against Broly, Goku and Vegeta fought in it during their rematch, & Vegeta used it during his sacrifice against Buu. SsjG was nowhere near as utilized as Ssj2 was, yet for some reason they thought we needed a new form in the very next movie.

[MasenkoHA]

Super Saiyan Blue doesn't work because as said Super Saiyan of a Super Saiyan God just sounds stupid also you can't make a big deal out of Super Saiyan God needing a ritual and then be like "Here's the next stronger form no ritual required". Even if we accept you only need the ritual once to access Super Saiyan God whenever nilly willy how the hell did Vegeta even gain the form?

Super Saiyan 3 had a purposeful function of explaining how Goku went from evenly matched with Majin Vegeta to being able to fight the significantly stronger Majin Boo. Super Saiyan Blue's purpose was uh new toy to sell. We already know Freeza was weaker than Beerus and Whis would it have really made a difference if Goku fought Freeza as a Super Saiyan God? Nope

I don't mind the design just being a color swap but it is a nonsense addition.