Unpopular DB opinions

[Saiga]

Gohan actually was the main character when Goku overshadowed him, though. Toriyama said as much as the start of the Boo arc, so "Goku's the main character" excuse doesn't fly. And it's a bit different from the Batman example because that's obviously named after him, and he is the sole main character of the book. Again, doesn't apply when Gohan was made the main character.

[ABED]

Gohan actually was the main character when Goku overshadowed him, though. Toriyama said as much as the start of the Boo arc, so "Goku's the main character" excuse doesn't fly. And it's a bit different from the Batman example because that's obviously named after him, and he is the sole main character of the book. Again, doesn't apply when Gohan was made the main character.

Actually, Batman started out in Detective comics, so it wasn't always named after him, and the story doesn't have to be named after the main character to be about them. Goku started off as the main character, Toriayama tried to switch to Gohan, felt he made a mistake and corrected course. I'm not alone in feeling like he did the right thing, Goku is more suited for that role than Gohan.

[Storm]

The Buu arc is actually my second favorite in the series after Freeza. Although it's obvious Toriyama had indecision about how to handle who was going to be the savior of Earth, and the middle section suffers for it, I really love the beginning with Gohan in high school as it lets the story breathe and gets the audience in a comfortable situation before everything goes haywire again, and I love the ending with Goku and Vegeta teaming up to defeat the final villain (and Vegetto is a very entertaining character, I must admit). Overall, it felt more character driven than the Android and Cell arc, and I really got engaged in the cast and their struggles in a way that I rarely do.

Sure, there are things I would have done differently, but that's the case with a lot of things in Dragon Ball, and like the entirety of Dragon Ball, warts and all, it delivers for me in the humor, action, and emotions that the franchise is best known for. When I rewatched the whole series in Japanese, Majin Vegeta's summation of his relationship with Goku before fighting Buu is the only thing in Dragon Ball that has made me openly weep, despite having seen and read the scene before multiple times before (I blame Ryo Horikawa's performance and the excellent use of this movie 9 theme).

Toriyama said as much as the start of the Boo arc

Toriyama changes his mind a lot. At the end of the day, he didn't feel Gohan was cut out to be the hero. You can argue about that until the cows come home, but Dragon Ball started and carried on with Goku as the hero, so to me, ending it with Goku as the hero makes a lot of sense. If he wanted another story with Gohan as the protagonist, he could have started a new manga series.

[Saiga]

Of course he changes his mind. I wasn't saying he had to stay with Gohan, just that it's really not the same to compare it to Batman. And that it's fair for people to have wanted Gohan to do more, because he WAS intended to be the main character.

[ABED]

Not to get off track, but I do think the Batman parallel is particularly valid in this context. Yes, Batman is the title character, multiple people have been Batman, but Bruce Wayne is best suited as the Dark Knight, not Jean Paul Valley, not Dick Grayson, and certainly not Rob... er, John Blake.

Just because someone intended Gohan to be the main character doesn't mean it was a good idea.

[Saiga]

Also not a valid comparison, because Gohan wasn't becoming Dragon Ball's "Batman" in that he had his own identity, he'd just be the main character. A valid comparison would be if Wayne was still Batman but Dick Grayson as Nightwing was the main character. There's no reason why that couldn't hypothetically work.

[RandomGuy96]

Gohan has arguably been the main character since Z started. The early saiyan arc immediately kills off Goku and focuses on Gohan. He's the one who develops. He's the one with the character arc. He's the one who beats Vegeta. He's the one taking an active role on Namek while Goku is gone for the majority. He's the one who saves Goku in the fight with Ginyu. Et cetera.

In a way, I felt like Goku vs Freeza was just Toriyama's way of giving Goku a good send off as a main character, given that he is very clearly not the protagonist of the Cell and Buu arcs.

[TheGmGoken]

I don't understand your point of contention?

Majin Vegeta(While cool) was a cheap way to have Boo have enough energy. Vegeta was basically a loser with a mid-life issues at this point.

it's that no matter how many times he got power ups that took him to his limits, he conveniently had more. I don't care that Goku ultimately overshadows Gohan. For one, Gohan had a big moment in killing Cell, plus it's Goku is the main character. It's like being irritated that Batman gets more focus in his own book

There are NO limits in DB. What ever limit you have can be broken with new limits. Gohan "big moment" wasn't as big as it should have been. Goku and Vegeta are the reason Cell died NOT Gohan. Goku did more work in that clash than Gohan(Besides using energy). Using DC Universe comics compared to DB manga is not a real comparison so to speak. Batman is the STAR of his own comic book. Even the comic books(most of the time) and tv shows are named after him. Now if the show was called Goku adventures then I would't mind. But it's called DB-DBZ-GT. There are many main characters. Gohan deserved his "Big moment" not Goku holding his hand.

That's debatable. Fanboy behavior is more about the way people say things and give their opinions more than their actual stance on a particular issue. Case in point, look at how obnoxious many of the responses were when certain people get cast in high profile roles (ledger, Keaton, and now Gadot).

In which it was used correctly here. For example I'm a Goten fanboy. I think Goten is above EVERYTHING. That's being a fanboy.

Not to get off track, but I do think the Batman parallel is particularly valid in this context. Yes, Batman is the title character, multiple people have been Batman, but Bruce Wayne is best suited as the Dark Knight, not Jean Paul Valley, not Dick Grayson, and certainly not Rob... er, John Blake.

Still not a good compare. Gohan didn't become Goku. Vegeta didn't become Goku. Gohan stayed Gohan and Vegeta stayed Vegeta. Mutliple people have been Batman. But there has been only ONE Goku. Having an identity if DIFFERENT from being a main character.

[Saiga]

Gohan has arguably been the main character since Z started. The early saiyan arc immediately kills off Goku and focuses on Gohan. He's the one who develops. He's the one with the character arc. He's the one who beats Vegeta. He's the one taking an active role on Namek while Goku is gone for the majority. He's the one who saves Goku in the fight with Ginyu. Et cetera.

In a way, I felt like Goku vs Freeza was just Toriyama's way of giving Goku a good send off as a main character, given that he is very clearly not the protagonist of the Cell and Buu arcs.

That's an interesting way to look at it. I know I've seen it argued that while Dragon Ball was about Goku growing up, Z was about Gohan growing up, but never have I seen it suggested that he was the main character for the whole thing. It actually is rather fitting, although in the arc where he actually becomes the main character he seems to get the least focus until the end.

[Kid Buu]

Yeah, but the manga is just simply "Dragon Ball" no separation between the two series despite what Toei and Viz may suggest.

[TheGmGoken]

Yeah, but the manga is just simply "Dragon Ball" no separation between the two series despite what Toei and Viz may suggest.

I separate the manga as DB Part 1 and DB part 2. As Part 2(DBZ) was much different than Part 1 IMO.

[Storm]

Honestly, Gohan being the hero of the Cell arc has always seemed to be one of the more out of left field development to me, even by Dragon Ball standards. He never had a single fight since Namek and he had no emotional connection to Cell, besides the fact that Cell was threatening all life on Earth. The only real struggle he has before that is becoming a Super Saiyan, which doesn't get a lot of focus (in the manga, anyway). The Cell arc played hot potato with the heroes just as much as Buu, frankly speaking (whether or not that's a good thing is another thing).

I separate the manga as DB Part 1 and DB part 2. As Part 2(DBZ) was much different than Part 1 IMO.

Well, that's your own distinction that isn't made in the story. The story doesn't reflect that change; it was Toei who decided to separate the two.

[ABED]

Also not a valid comparison, because Gohan wasn't becoming Dragon Ball's "Batman" in that he had his own identity, he'd just be the main character. A valid comparison would be if Wayne was still Batman but Dick Grayson as Nightwing was the main character. There's no reason why that couldn't hypothetically work.

It doesn't have to fit every single detail. Point is that Gohan wasn't suited for the role just like other characters are less suited to take over as main character. Gohan is great in a supporting role but he lacks that ineffable quality that certain heroes like Goku, Steve Rogers, Oliver Queen, Bruce Wayne, etc. have in their respective roles as heroes.

Just like I think killing Peter Parker off is a bad idea, I think it's a bad idea to have someone else take over Goku's role. He's the character we followed at the beginning and his son, while interesting, just doesn't have the same qualities many people look for in the main hero.

Gohan has arguably been the main character since Z started. The early saiyan arc immediately kills off Goku and focuses on Gohan. He's the one who develops. He's the one with the character arc. He's the one who beats Vegeta. He's the one taking an active role on Namek while Goku is gone for the majority. He's the one who saves Goku in the fight with Ginyu. Et cetera.

In a way, I felt like Goku vs Freeza was just Toriyama's way of giving Goku a good send off as a main character, given that he is very clearly not the protagonist of the Cell and Buu arcs.

Gohan was given a lot of development because he's the new character. Goku gets plenty of focus, and everyone is waiting for him. Gohan didn't beat Vegeta. It wouldn't have happened with everyone involved, not the least of which was Goku. It was his power that wore Vegeta down, it was his strategy that worked. Gohan is an integral part of the show but not the main character until deep into the Cell Games, and even then Gohan needed Goku's help to win.

Majin Vegeta(While cool) was a cheap way to have Boo have enough energy. Vegeta was basically a loser with a mid-life issues at this point

I still don't see how his Faustian deal was cheap. I don't see anything wrong with a villain or anti-hero being petulant.

Using DC Universe comics compared to DB manga is not a real comparison so to speak. Batman is the STAR of his own comic book. Even the comic books(most of the time) and tv shows are named after him. Now if the show was called Goku adventures then I would't mind. But it's called DB-DBZ-GT. There are many main characters.

We've already been over this point, there have been multiple Batmans, just like multiple Green Lanterns, Green Arrows and Captain Americas. And shows don't have to be named after the main character to be about the main character. Gohan's integral, but just doesn't have the qualities that Goku had which made him an interesting main hero.

Okay, you want a better comparison, what about when the main actor leaves a show and the show continues without them. I can't think of many if any cases where that's for the best.

[Kid Buu]

Gohan's character development just happens in his debut arc, just like how Yamcha's fear of girls was overcome in one arc or how Tenshinan's assassin-mentality was overcame in one arc. You could argue he has development in the Cell arc, but they had to regress him back to a pacifist first.

[Saiga]

But like I said, I believe Gohan was suited for the role, just like I believe other characters could be suited to take Batman's main character status but not his identity. And yes, it was poorly handled in the Cell arc, but I think that's more because of Toriyama's ad hoc writing and not giving it much build up. He used Gohan in a leading role for the Namek arc and it worked much better there, as it did in the Boo arc before he was written out. I think Goku's return was more poorly written than Gohan's graduation to main character status.

An example where the new character taking over an old would be Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. Jonathan Joestar is killed and his grandson Joseph Joestar becomes the main character. Then Joseph retires and his grandson Jotaro Kujo takes over. It especially worked when Joseph took over, because his arc was much more engaging than Jonathan's.

[ABED]

But like I said, I believe Gohan was suited for the role, just like I believe other characters could be suited to take Batman's main character status but not his identity. And yes, it was poorly handled in the Cell arc, but I think that's more because of Toriyama's ad hoc writing and not giving it much build up. He used Gohan in a leading role for the Namek arc and it worked much better there, as it did in the Boo arc before he was written out. I think Goku's return was more poorly written than Gohan's graduation to main character status.

I think Gohan doesn't have the temperament for the role in a fighting manga. Part of the things I found interesting is that he didn't want to fight, but would do so to defend his friends, and has his true passion be elsewhere. I liked that Gohan finally got to be a scholar. It's a fitting ending for his character, much more fitting than hero of the world which wasn't exactly a title Goku took by choice, either.

[Storm]

An example where the new character taking over an old would be Jojo's Bizarre Adventure. Jonathan Joestar is killed and his grandson Joseph Joestar becomes the main character. Then Joseph retires and his grandson Jotaro Kujo takes over. It especially worked when Joseph took over, because his arc was much more engaging than Jonathan's.

That's a pretty different deal. JoJo's entire gimmick is that it's multiple stories across generations, following a family line. Each section has a different protagonist. Jonathan had also only been the star of 45 chapters; a far cry from the near-400 with Goku until the Buu arc.

[TheGmGoken]

Well, that's your own distinction that isn't made in the story. The story doesn't reflect that change; it was Toei who decided to separate the two.

I did say it was "IMO.

Point is that Gohan wasn't suited for the role just like other characters are less suited to take over as main character. Gohan is great in a supporting role but he lacks that ineffable quality that certain heroes like Goku, Steve Rogers, Oliver Queen, Bruce Wayne, etc. have in their respective roles as heroes.

Not like the qualities are required as to be honest. Goku lost all qualities of a hero after Saiyan Arc.

It doesn't have to fit every single detail.

It fitted ZERO details......

Just like I think killing Peter Parker off is a bad idea, I think it's a bad idea to have someone else take over Goku's role. He's the character we followed at the beginning and his son, while interesting, just doesn't have the same qualities many people look for in the main hero.

Superior Spider is awesome. Gohan have qualities the average person seeks in a hero. Toriyama wanted change not the average person.. DB always plays hot potato with the heroes so...it really doesn't matter as EVERYTHING happens the same way.

*GASP* Goku is taken out(Died, Injuried, Virus, Dead, and Beaten by Birsu)
Support Character do their shit and have some moment to shine
Support Character THINK they've won
"FUCK EVERYONE WE'RE OUT OF HOPE! DAMN IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Goku arrives with or about to get BIG POWER!
Everyone admires Goku(-_-)
More Goku appreciation
Goku saves the day without winning the battle(With exception of Freeza where he does win the battle).
Goku makes a new friend(Piccolo officially turned Good, Vegeta, Satan, Boo, Birsu)
*END CREDITS*

Gohan was given a lot of development because he's the new character.

Unlike Goku. Which is a quality of a hero. See Gohan have stuff that Goku doesn't have.

I still don't see how his Faustian deal was cheap. I don't see anything wrong with a villain or anti-hero being petulant.

You see nothing wrong with it. But it's a common cheap plot device used to do something for the villain.

We've already been over this point, there have been multiple Batmans, just like multiple Green Lanterns, Green Arrows and Captain Americas. And shows don't have to be named after the main character to be about the main character. Gohan's integral, but just doesn't have the qualities that Goku had which made him an interesting main hero.

Since there was many Laterns, Batmans, Arrows, and Americans they comic book(Most of the time) is still NAMED after the HERO(Not the hero's real name. Just the costume hero). Doesn't matter who plays them. The book is named after the costume. Obviously the show doesn't need to be named after them. The point was that shows with a direct name in the title is focused on the character or a goal of a main character(Like Susica being the Love interest not the main character). The shows without direct names often explores other characters rather than just one. While DB does this. Goku is always cheaply put into the plot. Which makes him a bad hero IMO and lacks certain qualities of a Hero just like you say Gohan does.

I think Gohan doesn't have the temperament for the role in a fighting manga. Part of the things I found interesting is that he didn't want to fight, but would do so to defend his friends, and has his true passion be elsewhere.

Just curious. But how many fighting animation or books have you watched or read? Cause this is also a common plot element. About characters who doesn't want to fight but has to to protect people with a passion somewhere else.

[Kid Buu]

I also going to say I like how there is focus in the Garlic Jr arc on Piccolo and Kami's relationship, it just adds more depth to them when they finally fuse in the Android arc.

[Storm]

I think Gohan doesn't have the temperament for the role in a fighting manga. Part of the things I found interesting is that he didn't want to fight, but would do so to defend his friends, and has his true passion be elsewhere. I liked that Gohan finally got to be a scholar. It's a fitting ending for his character, much more fitting than hero of the world which wasn't exactly a title Goku took by choice, either.

Going back a bit to agree with this fully. Although I do feel like Toriyama never fully figured out what he wanted to do with Gohan, I think he's happiest as a civilian instead of a Goku knock-off.