Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[incarnati0n]

Yep, Gohan is not SSJ2 tier. He's SSB tier.


"Observe my full power" is pretty clear cut to be honest. That line has absolutely no purpose if he already was fighting at 100%.

Goku himself called for Gohan to use more and more power throughout the fight which coupled with Gohan saying that when he went against Blue shows that he wasn't giving his all before. Like, their base forms were around the same level, it would make no sense for ssj2 Goku to be on par with Gohan.

[LowRyder2005]

Any consensus on how strong base Goku and Gohan are after this episode?

I personally had to re-evaluate my Goku in my power levels. He now sits comfortably above Gotenks from the Buu saga in equal forms bar "beyond God", which puts him near his godly self. After rewatching the episode with the subs, I'm pretty convinced that this Gohan is closer to SS2 Goku than to Goku's Blue form. We do know he got stronger, regardless, so it's still a considerable achievement considering how much Goku had improved and especially the type of training he had had in the meanwhile.
In short, to me the episode spoke volumes about how much Goku had improved from someone who had been reportedly "surpassed by his son" in the Buu saga to someone who could at least hold his own against Ultimate Gohan in SS2. Which is quite ironical, because the episode actually revolved about Gohan's own progress, with Goku being a mere benchmark.

I also agree with the notion that getting a single punch in a 10-second exchange on Super Saiyan Blue Goku is pretty much nothing astonishing by Super's own (and more than anything unconvential) standards, especially after we had Krillin's showings against Blue Goku's Kamehameha. Now, unlike #17, it looked like Goku wanted to appease Gohan; by all means and accounts, he looked more like he could/would fight Gohan, albeit with some difficulty, in SS2 form. So there's that, but I don't think it can be regarded as conclusive in regards to #17 vs. Gohan.

The only outlier I can think of is base Goku being able to contain Piccolo's blast. Regardless of how "barely", it would mean that base Goku is around SS2 tier already. More than a "two-base confirmed!11" thingie I'll probably chalk it off as a crass error.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Yep, Gohan is not SSJ2 tier. He's SSB tier.

Just before Gohan and SSB Goku clash, Gohan tells him "Observe my full power" and they fight on par.

I wonder if Gohan amplified somehow his Ultimate form's multiplier. That's the only explanation I can think about. Goku never said he got stronger, only that he got his fighters spirit back after the tag team match.

Before the fight starts, Goku orders Gohan to use all his power.
After using his '' Ultimate '' form, Gohan says that is his ultimate power. He did not restrain himself in any moment, and even if he had restrained himself he would NOT MAKE NO SENSE save as much power as he was being pressed by Goku and evil Reacted to some blows.

He took two shots that meant nothing to Goku SSB, who did no damage and had no effect, barely threw him away.

You can not think Gohan is Goku SSB level being that it was a few seconds fight and he was competing with Goku SSJ2 before

"Observe my full power" is pretty clear cut to be honest. That line has absolutely no purpose if he already was fighting at 100%.

He said he was going with everything from START.
He just reaffirmed what he said before, that was all his power. How many times, in the middle of a fight, the characters repeat it?
What did he do so highly relevant to Goku SSB? Hit two blows, and Goku did not even express his face of pain?
Gohan was clearly pressed. But for you, he hid such power absurd inside the body, being able to defeat Goku SSJ2 well before?

I do not understand wanting to put anyone who trades punches with Goku SSB on a divine level. So it seems like he has to defeat his enemies with one blow.
DBS has become so common that it does not surprise me.
Even Trunks SSJ2 hit hits on Black SSJ Rosé

[ZombieVito]

Yep, Gohan is not SSJ2 tier. He's SSB tier.


"Observe my full power" is pretty clear cut to be honest. That line has absolutely no purpose if he already was fighting at 100%.

Goku himself called for Gohan to use more and more power throughout the fight which coupled with Gohan saying that when he went against Blue shows that he wasn't giving his all before. Like, their base forms were around the same level, it would make no sense for ssj2 Goku to be on par with Gohan.

Exactly. It's pretty obvious Gohan only used his full power against SSB Goku.

People just don't want to accept that he reached SSB tier.

[Lord Frieza]

Yep, Gohan is not SSJ2 tier. He's SSB tier.


"Observe my full power" is pretty clear cut to be honest. That line has absolutely no purpose if he already was fighting at 100%.

Goku himself called for Gohan to use more and more power throughout the fight which coupled with Gohan saying that when he went against Blue shows that he wasn't giving his all before. Like, their base forms were around the same level, it would make no sense for ssj2 Goku to be on par with Gohan.

Exactly. It's pretty obvious Gohan only used his full power against SSB Goku.

People just don't want to accept that he reached SSB tier.

No I want REAL evidence that he's reached that level, what is in the episode is not substantial enough to be that kind of evidence.

[incarnati0n]

Yep, Gohan is not SSJ2 tier. He's SSB tier.


"Observe my full power" is pretty clear cut to be honest. That line has absolutely no purpose if he already was fighting at 100%.

Goku himself called for Gohan to use more and more power throughout the fight which coupled with Gohan saying that when he went against Blue shows that he wasn't giving his all before. Like, their base forms were around the same level, it would make no sense for ssj2 Goku to be on par with Gohan.

Exactly. It's pretty obvious Gohan only used his full power against SSB Goku.

People just don't want to accept that he reached SSB tier.

Yes, pretty much just deinal. It would make no sense for him to only be equal to ssj2 Goku. Also Gohan didn't even ask for Goku to go even further after he went ssb. All in all. I think that Gohan is around ssb level, wouldn't bet on him winning against it but he is in that realm of power.

Wonder if Gohan saying that he is looking for for an ultimate form that has never been seen before is in anyway related to what Goku seems to have in the new ending and such.

[LowRyder2005]

Yep, Gohan is not SSJ2 tier. He's SSB tier.


"Observe my full power" is pretty clear cut to be honest. That line has absolutely no purpose if he already was fighting at 100%.

Goku himself called for Gohan to use more and more power throughout the fight which coupled with Gohan saying that when he went against Blue shows that he wasn't giving his all before. Like, their base forms were around the same level, it would make no sense for ssj2 Goku to be on par with Gohan.

That's correct, but it's been indirectly implied that Goku wasn't "serious" during most of the fight either. Whether it specifically meant that he was having reserves on using his strongest transformations or that he was fighting half-assedly in general will be, as usual, up to intepretation.

[TheSaiyanGod]

So Trunks SSJ2 = Black SSJ Rosé?
After all, he traded blows and hit an attack on Black.

Awesome how anything goes for putting an SSB level character now

[Bullza]

Well if their Base forms are equal then it really doesn't make any sense for Ultimate Gohan to be only around as strong as SSJ2 Goku. SSJ2 Gohan would be as strong as SSJ2 Goku and we know Ultimate Gohan is much stronger.

[Lord Frieza]

Goku himself called for Gohan to use more and more power throughout the fight which coupled with Gohan saying that when he went against Blue shows that he wasn't giving his all before. Like, their base forms were around the same level, it would make no sense for ssj2 Goku to be on par with Gohan.

Exactly. It's pretty obvious Gohan only used his full power against SSB Goku.

People just don't want to accept that he reached SSB tier.

Yes, pretty much just deinal. It would make no sense for him to only be equal to ssj2 Goku. Also Gohan didn't even ask for Goku to go even further after he went ssb. All in all. I think that Gohan is around ssb level, wouldn't bet on him winning against it but he is in that realm of power.

Wonder if Gohan saying that he is looking for for an ultimate form that has never been seen before is in anyway related to what Goku seems to have in the new ending and such.

when Gohan has an extended fight scene with SSB Goku of any level and holds his own THEN he will be SSB level. A blink and you'll miss it clash is no statuette for a real battle.

I'm not in denial and I dont care if he's SSB level or not one way or the other. MY PROBLEM IS YOU HAVE 0 SOLID EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAM AND NO RESPONSE FOR OUR QUESTION BEYOND "THEY SAID". WORDS ARE NO SUBSTITUTE FOR ACTIONS AND VISIBLE EVIDENCE.

If your evidence was bridge it would not hold one person before breaking as it is.

[TheSaiyanGod]

The '' Ultimate '' form has no multiplier.
It's just all the power of the Gohan totally released, and that hidden power from him has reached the Goku SSJ level. What's the problem?

They relate this form to SSJ3, but it has no relation. Gohan was stronger than Goku SSJ3 in the Boo Saga only, now he is much stronger.

The characters repeat countless times that they are using all the power in the fight, what is the mystery then? Goham was being pressured, taking several hits, but preferred to hide that abysmal power, right?

Does not make sense

[LowRyder2005]

Well if their Base forms are equal then it really doesn't make any sense for Ultimate Gohan to be only around as strong as SSJ2 Goku. SSJ2 Gohan would be as strong as SSJ2 Goku and we know Ultimate Gohan is much stronger.

Realistically, yes. Gohan's Ultimate form is supposed to grant an increase in power considerably superior to that of a Super Saiyan 3 transformation according to many different, and official, sources. It would involve Goku's "real" power amounting from, say, half a dozen to manyfold times that of Gohan in equal forms.
I don't think it's the intent here as well (although I'd have to say it's mostly from an out-of-universe perspective).

[ZombieVito]

Well if their Base forms are equal then it really doesn't make any sense for Ultimate Gohan to be only around as strong as SSJ2 Goku. SSJ2 Gohan would be as strong as SSJ2 Goku and we know Ultimate Gohan is much stronger.

This too.

Everything points out that Gohan didn't increase his base power at all with Piccolo's training. He somehow managed to increased his Ultimate power by an enormous amount. Maybe the meditation?

[TBMx]

Once again, Goku was no stronger in Blue than he was in lower Super Saiyan forms. Said it before, I'll say it again. In Super, different forms just exist to sell toys.

[SuperHumanGod]

After rewatching the episode, considering the spectators comments, Vegeta and how unaffected Gohan was by trading blows with SSJ blue in a much more serious fight than the rest, I'm putting him in SSJB tier. For me it goes: Goku > Vegeta > Gohan > Buu > 17 > piccolo > 18 > Kuririn > Tien(I still think he's stronger than roshi when he gets serious) > Roshi.

[TheSaiyanGod]

After rewatching the episode, considering the spectators comments, Vegeta and how unaffected Gohan was by trading blows with SSJ blue in a much more serious fight than the rest, I'm putting him in SSJB tier. For me it goes: Goku > Vegeta > Gohan > Buu > 17 > piccolo > 18 > Kuririn > Tien(I still think he's stronger than roshi when he gets serious) > Roshi.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Trunks was beaten in all ways by Vegeta SSB but was not knocked out by him in any moment. Only lost his transformation after taking several blows.

Gohan here only took a punch from the Goku SSB. I do not see why he would lose, mainly because Goku was showing all his power gradually. Even after the SSB, Gohan insisted that Goku go even more seriously

[precita]

Once again, Goku was no stronger in Blue than he was in lower Super Saiyan forms. Said it before, I'll say it again. In Super, different forms just exist to sell toys.

He was a lot stronger. Gohan was getting a lot of hits on Goku in his SSJ2 form, but not much in Blue.

[SirTorra]

I think it's safe to say the following after the conclusion of these recruitment episodes
1. Goku
2. Vegeta
3. 17
4. Frieza
5. Gohan
6. Piccolo
7. 18
8. Krillin
9. Roshi
10. Tien
Buu would be 5 if he was on the team

[larzooma]

I may get a good amount of argument, but as of 90, I think the ranking goes:

1. Goku
2. Gohan
3. Vegeta

I think the expression on Vegeta's face at first was admiration for the power the two displayed, but at the end he started to look like he's nervous his lack of training put him behind. It's the motivation for going into the room of spirit and time. He will come out at the number one spot minus Kiaoken, until Goku shows his new form, which I'm almost positive will start him on separate path from the Super Saiyan line of transformations. Gohan taught his father something. It's the reason we see him slash through the red and come out in what looks to be his normal form.

4. 17/Piccolo

Arguments for putting them above Frieze:

For 17 -- I'm more confident in putting 17 above Frieze. Golden Frieza could only keep up with a newly unveiled SSJB transformation, which is far below the level of SSJB Goku as of his fight with 17. If Goku used even an equal amount to his ROF power, and 17 could not only keep up, but held back an undisclosed amount of power, then he could be above Golden Frieza.

For Piccolo -- I feel we've yet to see Piccolo's true power, and from what's shown (and not shown off camera) in episode 88, he kept up with Mystic Gohan enough to train for an extensive period of time prior to his spar with Goku in episode 90. If Gohan could somewhat keep up with a fully powered Goku with only a small amount of training, then his lowest level Mystic Form has to be somewhere around ROF level SSJB. If Piccolo comes close to the level of Goku and Vegeta when they first transform against Golden Frieza, then given his range of abilities and intellect as a fighter, I'd give the fight to Piccolo. Especially if Frieza has yet to figure out a fix for the flaw with the form. I know a lot of people underestimate Piccolo, and consistently place him around Super Perfect Cell level, but his ability to match Gohan during training proves to me he's well above that level. Plus Piccolo is the type of fighter that isn't going to put his entire deck on the table unless he feels there's a sufficient reason. We've yet to see him in a situation where he has to give his all to save the earth or the people he loves. Wait until another Namek Frieze, Imperfect Cell, Android 17 moment (possibly in the tournament) to see him unleash his full potential.

5. Frieza
6. 18
7. Tien
8. Krillin
9. Roshi

[dbzfan7]

I think it's safe to say the following after the conclusion of these recruitment episodes
1. Goku
2. Vegeta
3. 17
4. Frieza
5. Gohan
6. Piccolo
7. 18
8. Krillin
9. Roshi
10. Tien

I'd switch Roshi and Tenshinhan. Yeah he's looked bad, but I think he's still better. He's just looked stupid. Surely the tournament will help his case I think.

Otherwise that's how I have it. Gohan did not fight blue long at all, so I can't feel right putting him above the likes of Freeza or 17 yet.