Unpopular DB opinions

[MasenkoHA]

The goofy and carefree attitude of end of z is exactly the type of finale a show like dragonball needs, you can tell toriyama wrote it because he would never write a gt-style ending.

I think another issue people have with Z's ending besides Goku leaving is how abrupt it is; we go from Buu dying directly to 10 years ahead. I think Z's ending works better if there are a couple of stories (Battle of Gods and Daima) between it and the Buu arc to make things flow better.

It jumped 10 years ahead so Goku could meet Majin Boo's 10 year old reincarnation. Putting unrelated stuff in between actually ruins the flow.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

It jumped 10 years ahead so Goku could meet Majin Boo's 10 year old reincarnation. Putting unrelated stuff in between actually ruins the flow.

Visiting the demon realm which was mentioned multiple times during the Buu arc, Goku becoming the strongest fighter again, the results of Vegeta's redemption from the Buu arc, and the reveal of Pan's upcoming birth make things flow more smoothly into end of Z in my opinion.

[ABED]

The goofy and carefree attitude of end of z is exactly the type of finale a show like dragonball needs, you can tell toriyama wrote it because he would never write a gt-style ending.

I think another issue people have with Z's ending besides Goku leaving is how abrupt it is; we go from Buu dying directly to 10 years ahead. I think Z's ending works better if there are a couple of stories (Battle of Gods and Daima) between it and the Buu arc to make things flow better.

It jumped 10 years ahead so Goku could meet Majin Boo's 10 year old reincarnation. Putting unrelated stuff in between actually ruins the flow.

Yeah I'm not sure what he means by ruining the flow. The point of the time jump is specifically to say nothing that interesting happened at that time. Goku waited this long before doing anything. What could he possibly be waiting for? Buu's reincarnation. The point doesn't really land if a bunch of exciting stuff happens in the meantime.

[MasenkoHA]

It jumped 10 years ahead so Goku could meet Majin Boo's 10 year old reincarnation. Putting unrelated stuff in between actually ruins the flow.

Visiting the demon realm which was mentioned multiple times during the Buu arc, Goku becoming the strongest fighter again, the results of Vegeta's redemption from the Buu arc, and the reveal of Pan's upcoming birth make things flow more smoothly into end of Z in my opinion.

Goku becoming the strongest fighter again is assumed by Gohan giving up on fighting to be a scholar and Trunk and Goten losing all interest in fighting to go chase girls and slack off. The Demon Realm was just where Dabura came from. It wasn't really relevant to the story outside of that and I don't recall it being mention multiple times, and if it was it was only in regards to Dabura. Pan in the ending is a footnote. It's just a cute full circle moment. The one person Goku knew at the beginning was his grandpa and now he too is a grandpa.

The manga's original ending seamlessly goes from Point A to Point B. Daima and Super throws in all these detours that the story never needed to hit and loses sight of Point B (Goku going off with the reincarnation of his strongest opponent to train him for a proper rematch).

I think another issue people have with Z's ending besides Goku leaving is how abrupt it is; we go from Buu dying directly to 10 years ahead. I think Z's ending works better if there are a couple of stories (Battle of Gods and Daima) between it and the Buu arc to make things flow better.

It jumped 10 years ahead so Goku could meet Majin Boo's 10 year old reincarnation. Putting unrelated stuff in between actually ruins the flow.

Yeah I'm not sure what he means by ruining the flow. The point of the time jump is specifically to say nothing that interesting happened at that time. Goku waited this long before doing anything. What could he possibly be waiting for? Buu's reincarnation. The point doesn't really land if a bunch of exciting stuff happens in the meantime.

Right. Goku is a guy who loses interest in his rivals as soon as someone stronger comes along. Why even care about Oob when his potential to be as strong as Majin Boo without the evil is still dwarved by Jiren, Hit, Broly, Kale, Beerus, Black Freeza, Whis etc


That's not to say people can't enjoy all this interquel crap we've been getting since 2013. It all had its own merits. But the original 1984-1995 manga sure as hell isn't stronger for it and wasn't missing anything without it.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

The manga's original ending seamlessly goes from Point A to Point B. Daima and Super throws in all these detours that the story never needed to hit and loses sight of Point B.

I don't think we needed all those stories, just the couple I mentioned. You do bring up good points, so I understand why the ending worked for you as it was. For me though, things just didn't click right until Battle of Gods and now Daima are a thing. The ending just works better for me when I go from Buu, to Battle of Gods, to Daima, then finally to the end of Z.

[tonysoprano300]

My unpopular opinion is that GT's ending is very overrated. You often hear people say "GT sucked but it has a good ending and ssj4"

I don't think GT's ending is appropriate for Dragon Ball's tone at all. It feels like the ending to a different show altogether. Goku deciding to fuck off with the dragon abandoning everyone makes no sense and it always rubbed me the wrong way. Him going off with uub in end of z is not comparable at all because he can still teleport back to his family whenever he wants, and it's implied that he won't be gone forever. Besides, we have that neko majin panel with uub living in the Son family house, so you know he didn't just cut everyone out of his life. And his motivation makes sense with his character, training a strong ally not only is in line with his fight junkie mentality, but it also allows him to complete his character arc from martial arts student to martial arts master.

In GT however he decides for no reason at all that he'd rather abandon his friends and family FOREVER and in favor of what exactly? Who fucking knows, chilling with the dragon I guess. It feels like a very artificial choice, like they wanted to write something dramatic for the sake of it but they failed in coming up with any kind of logical reasoning as to why would goku do that in the first place.
Him being in the tournament where goku jr and vegeta jr fought is even more puzzling. So he can walk around in the world and interact with people... So why exactly did he wait until his granddaughter was an old woman to do that?

The goofy and carefree attitude of end of z is exactly the type of finale a show like dragonball needs, you can tell toriyama wrote it because he would never write a gt-style ending.

If I'm not mistaken, didnt Goku have to go with the Dragon? I dont remember that being a choice

[Mr Baggins]

The goofy and carefree attitude of end of z is exactly the type of finale a show like dragonball needs, you can tell toriyama wrote it because he would never write a gt-style ending.

Firmly agreed.

So few people seem to grasp what makes EoZ such a perfect conclusion to Dragon Ball. There is no "stopping point" for its main protagonist: Goku and his entire journey is a metaphor for continuous self-improvement. He finally finds a successor genuinely interested in training under him, who also happens to be that next big fish he's been seeking out. There's a reason Toriyama never went past it, outside of that one gag spin-off.

There is no greater culmination for the series – and for Goku – than looking toward the future in lieu of looking back in the saccharine manner that GT did. In the words of Chad Warden, that shit ain't ballin'.

[WittyUsername]

The reason GT’s ending is so popular is because of how it functions as an emotional send-off for the world of Dragon Ball. Yeah, it’s certainly not the kind of ending Toriyama would come up with, and it leaves you with a ton of questions that never get answered, but the point is to bid farewell to Son Goku after over a decade of following his adventures.

[AliTheZombie13]

"Toriyama can't write X, so X inevitably sucks for Dragon Ball."
Would be a compelling argument, if he didn't like the original Bardock.

[PhantomSaiyan]

"Toriyama can't write X, so X inevitably sucks for Dragon Ball."
Would be a compelling argument, if he didn't like the original Bardock.

Unfortunately the argument is based on what I personally like, not what he likes, since it's my opinion.
How exactly is him liking toei's bardock supposed to change or invalidate what aspects and what type of storytelling I enjoy the most in dragonball?

[AliTheZombie13]

"Toriyama can't write X, so X inevitably sucks for Dragon Ball."
Would be a compelling argument, if he didn't like the original Bardock.

Unfortunately the argument is based on what I personally like, not what he likes, since it's my opinion.
How exactly is him liking toei's bardock supposed to change or invalidate what aspects and what type of storytelling I enjoy the most in dragonball?

I am simply against this sentiment fans have of not wanting the franchise to try new things because Toriyama never tried them personally. "This is tonally inconsistent with Dragon Ball, it has no place in this franchise." Okay, but... so what? Does the art being different make it automatically bad?

Toriyama sure considered Bardock, something he would never write himself, to have a place in the franchise. So if Toriyama doesn't really care if something is tonally consistent with his writing style or not, why should we?

I agree that a show must be tonally consistent, but It's not like the people behind were trying to turn Dragon Ball into a Mexican Soap Opera or... well... this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuFd5a_XLhc

Let people try new things, put their own spin on it, that's how art is born.
Imagine if, when Toriyama was starting Dragon Ball, he went and said "Nah! This would never fly with Journey to the West!"

[Super-Shenron]

Boo Saga Goku is worse than he's ever been in Super/GT/Daima. First he holds back against Vegeta for no good reason knowing full well he was guaranteed to take damage, which releases Boo into the wild. He then holds back again so he can leave the responsibility to kill Boo to Piccolo and two kids with no real fighting experience, apparently having learned nothing from Gohan's battle experience with Cell (which got him killed, by the way), because "he dead and he shouldn't interfere with living problems". Not that this particular hiccup stopped him from trying to prevent Boo's revival, of course, at least until he decided indulging in Vegeta's pride was more important than saving the universe, to the point of threatening to kill Shin. But Kami forbids he takes responsibility for his actions and cleans up the mess he made, right?

Predictably, the kids fuck around just like Gohan, Goku and Vegeta all did before them, which forces Goku to come back and finish the job like he should've from the start, and he admittedly is quite responsible and pragmatic when it comes to Super Boo's threat, even scolding Vegeta for breaking his potara...then he became Kid Boo. After the guy destroyed Earth, killed his family and hunted them down to the Supreme Kais' realm...Goku decides to play rock-paper-scissors to fight him on his own, even breaking his potara to ensure he has no way to become Vegito should he need it.

Goku's sheer irresponsibility in that arc needs to be studied. It's funny to give Super Goku hell for that kind of thing, but Z Goku mostly gets away with it cause "it was better before".

[ABED]

Let people try new things, put their own spin on it, that's how art is born.
Imagine if, when Toriyama was starting Dragon Ball, he went and said "Nah! This would never fly with Journey to the West!"

Not the same thing in the slightest. He was always making DB it's own thing. Journey of the West gave him a template but it was never an adaptation or even an outright parody.

[Vegeta th3 4th]

Let people try new things, put their own spin on it, that's how art is born.
Imagine if, when Toriyama was starting Dragon Ball, he went and said "Nah! This would never fly with Journey to the West!"

I couldn't agree more with this. One thing I will always give GT credit for is its attempt at doing something different rather than playing it safe like Super did. So many people are afraid of doing something different from what came before it, resulting in repetitive and predictable content.

[tonysoprano300]

I think I prefer GT’s ending to the original Toriyama ending because beyond its finality, you actually develop a sense that the world itself has moved on from Goku and friends. That they are relics of a different time and the fruits of Goku’s efforts are felt in an everlasting sense, that’s its timeless.
It genuinely feels like the end of Goku’s story and any subsequent material(Like a Heroes legacy) would have to start from scratch with different characters and a different world than the one we remember.

Like that’s a real ending, its cathartic and its conclusive. EOZ does not feel like the end of Goku’s story to me, the arrival of Oob feels like it’s supposed to be reflective of how Goku is embracing his responsibility as a martial artist to ensure the next generation of fighters are ready to carry the torch forward but it never really hits that way. It plays more like Goku is bored and is looking for the next opportunity to give him some excitement in life.

[ABED]

I think I prefer GT’s ending to the original Toriyama ending because beyond its finality, you actually develop a sense that the world itself has moved on from Goku and friends. That they are relics of a different time and the fruits of Goku’s efforts are felt in an everlasting sense, that’s its timeless.
It genuinely feels like the end of Goku’s story and any subsequent material(Like a Heroes legacy) would have to start from scratch with different characters and a different world than the one we remember.

Like that’s a real ending, its cathartic and its conclusive. EOZ does not feel like the end of Goku’s story to me, the arrival of Oob feels like it’s supposed to be reflective of how Goku is embracing his responsibility as a martial artist to ensure the next generation of fighters are ready to carry the torch forward but it never really hits that way. It plays more like Goku is bored and is looking for the next opportunity to give him some excitement in life.

Uub isn't so much representative of the next generation and Goku's responsibility to pass on his knowledge. It's more about Goku having yet another hill to climb. You are right in the last sentence. It was never meant to be about the next generation. The story is about self improvement. Understanding that was the key to me enjoying that ending even if I still don't like him feeling like he has to leave his family for an extended period of time. He can teleport!

[MasenkoHA]

Let people try new things, put their own spin on it, that's how art is born.
Imagine if, when Toriyama was starting Dragon Ball, he went and said "Nah! This would never fly with Journey to the West!"

Not the same thing in the slightest. He was always making DB it's own thing. Journey of the West gave him a template but it was never an adaptation or even an outright parody.

Maybe not the best comparison, but I think Ali's point still stands that the franchise has done plenty of great stuff divorced from Toriyama's work. The first Dragon Ball Z movie, some of the expansion of characters and story via filler (more so in the original Dragon Ball). I'm not a big fan of his but obviously Broli is another iconic character that wouldn't exist if Toei stuck only what Toriyama gave them.

I would have been fine with the franchise ending in 1995 (or 1988 depending on my mood) but I'm glad GT exist for people who enjoyed it and gave fans a more satisfying conclusion if they felt cold by Toriyama's ending, even if I disagree 100 percent.

And there's plenty to like about Super even if a lot of Super is rocky and it does feel overall safe and corporate.

[JulieYBM]

Let people try new things, put their own spin on it, that's how art is born.
Imagine if, when Toriyama was starting Dragon Ball, he went and said "Nah! This would never fly with Journey to the West!"

Not the same thing in the slightest. He was always making DB it's own thing. Journey of the West gave him a template but it was never an adaptation or even an outright parody.

Maybe not the best comparison, but I think Ali's point still stands that the franchise has done plenty of great stuff divorced from Toriyama's work. The first Dragon Ball Z movie, some of the expansion of characters and story via filler (more so in the original Dragon Ball). I'm not a big fan of his but obviously Broli is another iconic character that wouldn't exist if Toei stuck only what Toriyama gave them.

I would have been fine with the franchise ending in 1995 (or 1988 depending on my mood) but I'm glad GT exist for people who enjoyed it and gave fans a more satisfying conclusion if they felt cold by Toriyama's ending, even if I disagree 100 percent.

And there's plenty to like about Super even if a lot of Super is rocky and it does feel overall safe and corporate.

As the resident bisexual girlypop, I have to yet again opine about how Toriyama would have never given us Kale and Caulifla and their pretty clearly Sapphic relationship. Or hell, just featured them with character arcs of their own, like with Caulifla trying to surpass Gokuu and Kale trying to get Caulifla to notice her. Nor would we have gotten the homoerotic gay stuff going on between Zamasu and Gokuu Black.

Heck, we wouldn't have gotten cool episodes like those Saiyan arc training episodes. Kuririn and the gang getting brutally massacred by those two illusion Saiyans? Hell yeah, that was just a plain cool, atmospheric episode. Or what about that episode where Gohan befriended the robot? Or the orphans?

I think there's a lot of cool character and story material that you can mine out of these characters, but letting only one storytelling philosophy dictate what gets made—the relatively inflexible Toriyama model—is going to serious cramp creatives being tasked with making future Dragon Ball works.

The blood-sucking bastard capitalists and editorial zealots need to learn to trust and encourage creative minds outside of Toriyama Akira. There's no way there isn't the talent at Toei Animation to work with to create something cool and memorable. They're actual, trained, skilled and previously certified creative minds there to work with.

[ABED]

I know we like to think of Toriyama as always undercutting stuff with jokes but lets not forget the Piccolo Daimao, Saiyan, and Freeza arcs are fairly grim and tension filled. We see children murdered. not sure what you all think is being prevented from happening by trying to keep things in the spirit of Toriyama.

DB can do plenty tonally. I'd like to see Goku be less exaggerated than he was in Super, but I'd hate to think the way to do something different is boring world building like in Daima.

[MasenkoHA]

DB can do plenty tonally. I'd like to see Goku be less exaggerated than he was in Super, but I'd hate to think the way to do something different is boring world building like in Daima.

I have yet to watch Daima so maybe the execution is better than it sounds but the whole "Namekians are actually from the demon realm" just sounds like a completely pointless addition to the lore.

Like I guess Piccolo no longer being a mazoku after his rebirth doesn't mean anything because all Namekians are technically majin...I guess?

Not the same thing in the slightest. He was always making DB it's own thing. Journey of the West gave him a template but it was never an adaptation or even an outright parody.

Maybe not the best comparison, but I think Ali's point still stands that the franchise has done plenty of great stuff divorced from Toriyama's work. The first Dragon Ball Z movie, some of the expansion of characters and story via filler (more so in the original Dragon Ball). I'm not a big fan of his but obviously Broli is another iconic character that wouldn't exist if Toei stuck only what Toriyama gave them.

I would have been fine with the franchise ending in 1995 (or 1988 depending on my mood) but I'm glad GT exist for people who enjoyed it and gave fans a more satisfying conclusion if they felt cold by Toriyama's ending, even if I disagree 100 percent.

And there's plenty to like about Super even if a lot of Super is rocky and it does feel overall safe and corporate.

As the resident bisexual girlypop, I have to yet again opine about how Toriyama would have never given us Kale and Caulifla and their pretty clearly Sapphic relationship. Or hell, just featured them with character arcs of their own, like with Caulifla trying to surpass Gokuu and Kale trying to get Caulifla to notice her. Nor would we have gotten the homoerotic gay stuff going on between Zamasu and Gokuu Black.

For all the issues I had with Super, Caulifla and Kale will always be great additions.

And I like that Caulifla is basically lesbian Goku as a street tough instead of a country bumpkin. No manners, no real respect for her elders and just really wants to be the best versions of herself as a fighter