Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TheMikado]

The only thing this episode did for me is confirm the jump between power levels and "forms" is dramatically smaller. To the point where the form shifting becomes annoying because you have dramatic shifts in presentations with far less payoff.

[TheSaiyanGod]

no he is no where near vegeta

Gohan said to SSJ2 Goku that this was his current full power and he was struggling against Goku

but then he matches SSB Goku?

Super's stupid logic

so it should be Gohan = SSJ2 Goku

I think you're probably right about him being below Vegeta, but not that far behind. He seemed to hold his own for the brief moments we saw him challenge Goku as SSJB before he went Kaioken. I took Vegeta's face during the power up as in indication of shock that Gohan became so powerful. Maybe it was partly in response to Gohan, but more of a I better get in gear or he may surpass me soon type of face.

i don't know where he stands tbh, i am only guessing

power scaling in this show is officially a mess

how he can say that this is his full power and struggle with SSJ2 Goku and then suddenly challenge SSB Goku is absurd

Gohan did not do much different than other characters have already done. Trunks also held Black SSJ Rosé for a few seconds, even though he was in SSJ2, he even got two kicks, but he was obviously inferior.
Kuririn has also hit blows in Nappa, even the Saiyajin having plucked Tenshihan's arm with a blow.

Goku only used the SSB when Gohan asked, implying that he had no pretense of using it.

[Beyond]

Would it be farfetched to say that Goku is beyond a SSG in base and at a level moderately superior to it as a SSB while he can adjust his base form's power (and thus his SS forms' power as well) according to his opponents?

In short, would it be too much to say that Goku is as strong as he wants to be?

Goku's power is the ultimate troll. I remember he even fought Hit with base for a little bit.

[larzooma]

The only thing this episode did for me is confirm the jump between power levels and "forms" is dramatically smaller. To the point where the form shifting becomes annoying because you have dramatic shifts in presentations with far less payoff.

I actually felt the opposite in episode 88. When Gohan goes all out to turn SSJ2, Piccolo quickly powers up to what seems to be an equal level without much exertion. Part of improving as a fighter in DB, means expending less energy powering up or transforming. I picture Piccolo losing his shit against 17, yelling and shaking the earth to increase his power enough to keep pace. Now he taught himself with years of training to quickly jump in level without a high level of exertion, and possibly as important, not as much of an indication to someone who can't read your power that something is drastically changing in your ability. Gohan may have been doing something similar once he already turned Mystic by powering up as he flew towards Goku without the need to scream for 3 episodes and crack 7 mountains in half lol.

[Marlowe89]

The assumed dichotomy of one base and Super Saiyan forms <---------- over here and one base and Super Saiyan Blue ----------> over there now definitely makes no sense. There's a far more gradual progression up the Super Saiyan chain than that.

I'm starting to think that Saiyan Beyond God exists/existed, but that it quit being used because Goku's base and regular SSJ forms completely caught up with it. (As did every other character apparently!) This would explain the retcon.

Narratively speaking, it was probably never anything more than an attempt to just explain what Super Saiyan Blue is. Even in Super's RoF arc Goku calls it the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, so it's fundamentally consistent with what we were told in the movie pamphlet, but from the U6 Tournament onwards I think Toei primarily wanted Goku to stick to one base for consistency's sake and to relinquish any possible confusion that might arise from the characters toggling Godly power.

So even if two bases actually do exist, it doesn't matter at all because you'll only ever see Goku using the first one.

[larzooma]

The only thing this episode did for me is confirm the jump between power levels and "forms" is dramatically smaller. To the point where the form shifting becomes annoying because you have dramatic shifts in presentations with far less payoff.

I actually felt the opposite in episode 88. When Gohan goes all out to turn SSJ2, Piccolo quickly powers up to what seems to be an equal level without much exertion. Part of improving as a fighter in DB, means expending less energy powering up or transforming. I picture Piccolo losing his shit against 17, yelling and shaking the earth to increase his power enough to keep pace. Now he taught himself with years of training to quickly jump in level without a high level of exertion, and possibly as important, not as much of an indication to someone who can't read your power that something is drastically changing in your ability. Gohan may have been doing something similar once he already turned Mystic by powering up as he flew towards Goku without the need to scream for 3 episodes and crack 7 mountains in half lol.

This episode made me wonder how often the other high level Z fighters suddenly become aware of each other during a battle or simply when a fighter tests his limits. Piccolo, Vegeta, Goku, Tien, etc. spend most of their life training, and even when they're alone, they must want to test out the fruits of their labor. Maybe part of having such a high level of Ki control provides you with enough of a connection with your Ki to understand your limits without the need to actually power up to test them. Wouldn't Vegeta and Piccolo, suddenly wonder why Goku needs to go blue and alter his power level clearly indicating a battle during his fight with 17? If a bean poll, green jump-suited Gohan could exert enough power to travel far enough for Goku to sense it, then any substantial ki increase must travel across the whole of the earth easily.

[ekrolo2]

The assumed dichotomy of one base and Super Saiyan forms <---------- over here and one base and Super Saiyan Blue ----------> over there now definitely makes no sense. There's a far more gradual progression up the Super Saiyan chain than that.

I'm starting to think that Saiyan Beyond God exists/existed, but that it quit being used because Goku's base and regular SSJ forms completely caught up with it. (As did every other character apparently!) This would explain the retcon.

Narratively speaking, it was probably never anything more than an attempt to just explain what Super Saiyan Blue is. Even in Super's RoF arc Goku calls it the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan with the power of Super Saiyan God, so it's fundamentally consistent with what we were told in the movie pamphlet, but from the U6 Tournament onwards I think Toei primarily wanted Goku to stick to one base for consistency's sake and to relinquish any possible confusion that might arise from the characters toggling Godly power.

So even if two bases actually do exist, it doesn't matter at all because you'll only ever see Goku using the first one.

I imagine this is probably what happened, but I wouldn't be surprised if Goku's Base got powered down like the rest of him as a way to keep him a lot weaker than Beerus, a mentality that didn't get overtly brought up until late into Super.

The manga just putting back SSGod in lue of Toriyama's proposed enhanced Base that's on par with God or fueled by it from movie also points to a change of heart late in the game.

[ZombieVito]

I think this episode has solidified that Goku's base form is at the very least SSJ2 Boo arc tier, given he survived Piccolo's Explosive Wave with no issue.

You know who else survived an attack like that?

Babidi. Half of him.

[BlueBasilisk]

The manga just putting back SSGod in lue of Toriyama's proposed enhanced Base that's on par with God or fueled by it from movie also points to a change of heart late in the game.

The manga was different from the outset. Super Saiyan God's power never ran out like it did in the movie or the series. Goku kept it until the very end.

[ekrolo2]

The manga just putting back SSGod in lue of Toriyama's proposed enhanced Base that's on par with God or fueled by it from movie also points to a change of heart late in the game.

The manga was different from the outset. Super Saiyan God's power never ran out like it did in the movie or the series. Goku kept it until the very end.

Which is a change Toriyama wouldn't have OK'd if he was 100% stone cold dead serious about an enhanced base form fueled by God existing. That's why, even with the F magazine thing, I continue to remain dubious about how the actual fuck anyone's powers work in Super.

[Lord Beerus]

I think this episode has solidified that Goku's base form is at the very least SSJ2 Boo arc tier, given he survived Piccolo's Explosive Wave with no issue.

You know who else survived an attack like that?

Babidi. Half of him.

Oh yeah. I totally forget that Babidi got caught in the midst of SSJ2 Majin Vegeta's Final Explosion and survived it. But given that Piccolo was able to cut him in half like that, does that mean that Piccolo in the Majin Boo arc was SSJ2 tier?

[TheMikado]

The only thing this episode did for me is confirm the jump between power levels and "forms" is dramatically smaller. To the point where the form shifting becomes annoying because you have dramatic shifts in presentations with far less payoff.

I actually felt the opposite in episode 88. When Gohan goes all out to turn SSJ2, Piccolo quickly powers up to what seems to be an equal level without much exertion. Part of improving as a fighter in DB, means expending less energy powering up or transforming. I picture Piccolo losing his shit against 17, yelling and shaking the earth to increase his power enough to keep pace. Now he taught himself with years of training to quickly jump in level without a high level of exertion, and possibly as important, not as much of an indication to someone who can't read your power that something is drastically changing in your ability. Gohan may have been doing something similar once he already turned Mystic by powering up as he flew towards Goku without the need to scream for 3 episodes and crack 7 mountains in half lol.

What I'm saying is cycling through 2-3 levels of power so quickly seems to cheapen them and shorten the gap between he levels. Basically it makes it feel like a SSJ2 isn't that much stronger than SSJ or that base is only slightly inferior to SSJ. I'm saying the forms not longer seem to denote the power and power gap they once seemed to represent and it wouldn't shock me if Base Gohan was able to get a few hits in on SSJ3 or SSB Goku.

[ZombieVito]

I think this episode has solidified that Goku's base form is at the very least SSJ2 Boo arc tier, given he survived Piccolo's Explosive Wave with no issue.

You know who else survived an attack like that?

Babidi. Half of him.

Oh yeah. I totally forget that Babidi got caught in the midst of SSJ2 Majin Vegeta's Final Explosion and survived it. But given that Piccolo was able to cut him in half like that, does that mean that Piccolo in the Majin Boo arc was SSJ2 tier?

No but it means attacks like that are inconsistent. Babidi should have died there.

Base Gohan was not said to power up at all after training with Piccolo and that same Gohan fought on par with base Goku, so by logic Piccolo should be able to fight SSJ2 Goku as well as he did with SSJ2 Gohan.

So base Goku > Piccolo is impossible.

[Bullza]

Yeah if Piccolo is shown to be slightly above Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Base Gohan and Goku were equal then it'd be Super Saiyan 2 Gohan and Super Saiyan 2 Goku would be equal.

Which of course would mean Piccolo should also be slightly above Super Saiyan 2 Goku as well.

SSJB Goku ~ Ultimate Gohan > SSJ2 Goku = SSJ2 Gohan > SSJ Goku = SSJ Gohan > Base Goku = Base Gohan

Again it just depends how strong their Base forms are exactly but it can't be staggeringly higher than the Buu saga.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm think Base Gohan got stronger after training with the Z-Sword on Kaioshin's planet but also hit a glass ceiling there. Then it lead to what we know now: Gohan regressed in power after slacking off and regained all of his lost power, including his Ultimate transformation, after training with Piccolo continuously from the end of the Resurrection F arc.

Base Goku's true strength is a bit of a conundrum. I hate to say it, but I think he was sandbagging again. I mean, when Goku and Gohan fought in their base forms, and Gohan powered up briefly, Goku did nothing in response. Hell, prior to Goku and Gohan going at it again, Roshi and Tien comment that Goku and Gohan were really going to go all out.

But then again, I think I'm just full of shit.

[ssbgoku]

Hello guys I watched the last episode of dragon ball super and it seems to that at least comparision between Goku and gohan stay consistent.

Before that I will go and assume that piccolo didnt use full power even although he was charging attack due to look out to not kill tien shinhan. Also keep in mind that both piccolo and gohan seemed to not rest at all after training hard together, while both goku and tien took sometime to rest.

About base gohan vs base goku in tag team I was almost sure that gohan was tired out at begining so goku had advantage.

Then both ate senzu beans and powered up, ss2 goku vs ultimate form gohan. Initially it looked as gohan was holding back + understimating his father as he got hit in face but then countered and began keep up in short time.

Then goku took advantage of instant transmission to beat gohan and didnt give him time to react and counter.Then kamehameha struggle and goku calling for gohan to release more power is either reference to cell games ss2 kid gohan believing to use his full power to release even more as goku believed he can or gohan getting stronger through fight due to high potential.

Then gohan overpower goku for short time shouting for him to use full power putting his guard down as goku punch him in face and then they exchange blows then they catch their hands in lock and gohan became impatient overpowering goku and shouting to use more power as gohan seemed using even more and believing ss2 goku is too weak to either match that or push his limits. Then goku turns ssb and they seems equal for a bit then kaioken comes out and gohan is lost. So:

Kaioken ssb goku > ssb goku >= full power ultimate gohan(white intense aura) > ultimate gohan subsciounsly holding back =ss2 goku with It > ss2 goku ~ initial ultimate gohan ~ ss2 gohan > picoolo full power > ss goku ~ ss gohan > 100% base goku ~ 100% base gohan > restricted picoolo > Tien > Roshi > supressed Tien

[Tectorman]

So, I found this photo on DB Wiki and there it said that Blue KKX10 has only twice the power of regular SSBlue. Now, this is from the DB Wiki so I expect this to be entirely wrong but if anyone can verify this, it would be greatly appreciated.

that mathematically makes no sense unless they're talking about regular SSJB KK

It was on the KKX10 page which is what makes me wonder how valid that is. We need a proper translator for the stuff in that image.

Did anything ever come of this? Cause damn if that doesn't bear a striking resemblance to what I was saying for a while.

[LowRyder2005]

that mathematically makes no sense unless they're talking about regular SSJB KK

It was on the KKX10 page which is what makes me wonder how valid that is. We need a proper translator for the stuff in that image.

Did anything ever come of this? Cause damn if that doesn't bear a striking resemblance to what I was saying for a while.

We could only check on Google Translate thanks to Bullza's mighty efforts.
Conclusion? In all likelihood it simply meant that thanks to SSB Goku's "calmness" he was able to mix Super Saiyan Blue with Kaioken, a move "which doubles one's fighting abilities". A standard case of much ado about nothing, as we already knew that's how Kaioken worked.

[ZombieVito]

Hello guys I watched the last episode of dragon ball super and it seems to that at least comparision between Goku and gohan stay consistent.

Before that I will go and assume that piccolo didnt use full power even although he was charging attack due to look out to not kill tien shinhan. Also keep in mind that both piccolo and gohan seemed to not rest at all after training hard together, while both goku and tien took sometime to rest.

About base gohan vs base goku in tag team I was almost sure that gohan was tired out at begining so goku had advantage.

Then both ate senzu beans and powered up, ss2 goku vs ultimate form gohan. Initially it looked as gohan was holding back + understimating his father as he got hit in face but then countered and began keep up in short time.

Then goku took advantage of instant transmission to beat gohan and didnt give him time to react and counter.Then kamehameha struggle and goku calling for gohan to release more power is either reference to cell games ss2 kid gohan believing to use his full power to release even more as goku believed he can or gohan getting stronger through fight due to high potential.

Then gohan overpower goku for short time shouting for him to use full power putting his guard down as goku punch him in face and then they exchange blows then they catch their hands in lock and gohan became impatient overpowering goku and shouting to use more power as gohan seemed using even more and believing ss2 goku is too weak to either match that or push his limits. Then goku turns ssb and they seems equal for a bit then kaioken comes out and gohan is lost. So:

Kaioken ssb goku > ssb goku >= full power ultimate gohan(white intense aura) > ultimate gohan subsciounsly holding back =ss2 goku with It > ss2 goku ~ initial ultimate gohan ~ ss2 gohan > picoolo full power > ss goku ~ ss gohan > 100% base goku ~ 100% base gohan > restricted picoolo > Tien > Roshi > supressed Tien

Did anything ever come of this? Cause damn if that doesn't bear a striking resemblance to what I was saying for a while.

Someone should ask Herms to look into it.

[BWri]

i don't know where he stands tbh, i am only guessing

power scaling in this show is officially a mess

how he can say that this is his full power and struggle with SSJ2 Goku and then suddenly challenge SSB Goku is absurd

It's been a mess since the beginning basically and every arc has just been progressively worse. The power scaling from arc to arc is especially bad, but in this arc it seems to be episode to episode

The only thing this episode did for me is confirm the jump between power levels and "forms" is dramatically smaller. To the point where the form shifting becomes annoying because you have dramatic shifts in presentations with far less payoff.

I think I remember someone else here saying that same thing a few weeks back

I think people are simply getting too hung up on the multipliers, the numbers I mean. I don't think the numbers are meant to be as high as they used to be. For instance I don't think SSB is 50x SSG. I also don't think SSJ is a 50x boost anymore. Out of universe, the forms are as strong as the plot needs them to be now, much less consistent than DBZ, but in-universe it's probably because they are accessing more power in base and so their transformations don't need to be as drastic. I reason this do to how well base Gohan did against the likes of Shisami and Tagoma and how base Goku could actually stand up to Hit for a while without transforming whereas SSB Vegeta was outright destroyed.

I honestly like that the transformation multipliers aren't so high. Power inflation annoyed me to death by the time the Buu saga hit."