Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ChiefWamsutta]

I think the question of where so many characters are currently at in relation to each other will be answered once the Battle Royale starts. We will have a better estimate at how much Frost, Frieza, Hit, Gohan, Android 17, and others have strengthened.

I'm going to just wait until we get to the tournament before I assess anyone's power. It makes no sense to do it now.

[TAF108]

I think the best yhing to do is waot for confirmation. I got a lot of heat for saying I wouldn't say 17's Blue tier just yet on other forums. But Goku has been shown to be an absolute troll with his power (or inconsistent, take your pick.)

For characters like 17 & Gohan, I will wait to see how they do against SSJB tier opponents like Hit, Toppo and the like before I really accept them as being that strong.

Same for the "strongest human" debate. I'll wait for a more direct comparison before I say Roshi is stronger than Tien. Or that Krollin is any threat to Goku power wise (Though that one I think is obvious.)

I don't think it's bad to have lists now based on the info we've been given. Just know it's likely subject to change.

[Bullza]

It does seem a little weird that so many people think Android 17 is Blue Tier even though Goku said he was holding back but people have a problem with Ultimate Gohan being Blue Tier even though Goku didn't say he held back even though Gohan you'd think would be much more likely to be Blue Tier.

But it is true, even SSJ2 Trunks tangled with SSJR Black for a few seconds.

[incarnati0n]

That we would not even see the Blue form so much that Goku started in SSJ2 with Ultimate Gohan Full Power traits, which already nullifies any chance of him being close to the SSB. He having held Goku for a few seconds is not enough parameter to set his level. Trunks SSJ2 was inferior to Goku SSJ3, this was clear, it's still held Black SSJ Rosé for a few seconds. It became clear that Gohan at most rival Goku SSJ3, soon to have endured Goku SSB for a few seconds (no effect) does not define his level, even more That we do not know how much power Goku SSB used, only that he went with everything while using the kaioken

Why are you discrediting the fact that after Goku tells Gohan to release more power, that Gohan starts whooping Goku around.
The way I see it is that Gohan asks Goku to go full power but Goku initially doesn't oblige until Gohan shows enough power to make him tranform further. This is evidenced by Goku saying "not yet" after Gohan punches him in the gut and throws a ki blast in his face. Once Gohan showed he was at a good enough level did Goku accept to go Blue and after that Gohan still matches him pretty well and then Goku, without Gohan asking for it, shows him the true extent of his powers.

[Marlowe89]

I think the question of where so many characters are currently at in relation to each other will be answered once the Battle Royale starts. We will have a better estimate at how much Frost, Frieza, Hit, Gohan, Android 17, and others have strengthened.

Maybe, but the problem is that Toei just tends to be super ambiguous about this stuff. Toyotaro at least generally attempts to provide some kind of clarification on where characters typically stand in relation to each other, but the anime mostly seems to prioritize making the fights dramatic and flashy over establishing any semblance of a structured hierarchy. Perhaps the tournament will give us further insights to the power scale specifically but I wouldn't hold my breath at this point.

Maybe power levels simply aren't the be-all-and-end-all that we've come to expect from watching a series like Z.

[Bullza]

It seems to be different to Z in that even weaker characters can be valuable just through experience and strategy.

That wasn't really a thing in Z. If their power level wasn't high enough then they may aswell not even be there. I suppose Super does it better because it keeps characters relevant, it's just not to consistent at this point.

The manga power scale is much better for the most part. The only thing I didn't like there was the whole SSJ2 Vegeta Vs SSJ or SSJ2 Black thing but that's about it.

[ZombieVito]

It seems to be different to Z in that even weaker characters can be valuable just through experience and strategy.

That wasn't really a thing in Z. If their power level wasn't high enough then they may aswell not even be there. I suppose Super does it better because it keeps characters relevant, it's just not to consistent at this point.

The manga power scale is much better for the most part. The only thing I didn't like there was the whole SSJ2 Vegeta Vs SSJ or SSJ2 Black thing but that's about it.

The anime and manga power scale are really similar, there's just a few exceptions like using SbG instead of SSG, F.Trunks power and Ikari.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It does seem a little weird that so many people think Android 17 is Blue Tier even though Goku said he was holding back but people have a problem with Ultimate Gohan being Blue Tier even though Goku didn't say he held back even though Gohan you'd think would be much more likely to be Blue Tier.

But it is true, even SSJ2 Trunks tangled with SSJR Black for a few seconds.

We do not know how much Goku used transformed into SSB, it is less likely still. It would discourage his son by saying that he had insured himself, since he asked his father to go with everything
As I see it, Gohan did not outgrow Goku for a few reasons:

-The point for Gohan to call his father to train was to test his power
-Goku tells Gohan to release his power
-Gohan after entering the Ultimate form, says he has all his power
-Goku SSJ2 rivals Gohan even in Ultimate form, pressing him several times in the fight
The only reason for Goku to sweat the Blue form was Gohan's request. At no time do we see him transforming out of necessity or despair, so much that it began in SSJ2. It is assumed that he did not even intend to use it in the fight
Since it was established during the fight that Gohan was rivaling Goku SSJ2 and at most reached Goku level SSJ3, he hit two punches in Goku SSB did not totally redefine his level,And Trunks SSJ2, even though it's much weaker,also managed to hit two strokes (against Black SSJ Rosé)

Since the Blue form was only used due to a request from Gohan, I do not see why putting him on that level. Even more than he asked for the maximum power of his father, SSB + Kaioken, he has no way of knowing how much he used on SSB

That we would not even see the Blue form so much that Goku started in SSJ2 with Ultimate Gohan Full Power traits, which already nullifies any chance of him being close to the SSB. He having held Goku for a few seconds is not enough parameter to set his level. Trunks SSJ2 was inferior to Goku SSJ3, this was clear, it's still held Black SSJ Rosé for a few seconds. It became clear that Gohan at most rival Goku SSJ3, soon to have endured Goku SSB for a few seconds (no effect) does not define his level, even more That we do not know how much power Goku SSB used, only that he went with everything while using the kaioken

Why are you discrediting the fact that after Goku tells Gohan to release more power, that Gohan starts whooping Goku around.
The way I see it is that Gohan asks Goku to go full power but Goku initially doesn't oblige until Gohan shows enough power to make him tranform further. This is evidenced by Goku saying "not yet" after Gohan punches him in the gut and throws a ki blast in his face. Once Gohan showed he was at a good enough level did Goku accept to go Blue and after that Gohan still matches him pretty well and then Goku, without Gohan asking for it, shows him the true extent of his powers.

Gohan already started the fight stating that he was in full power, Goku was just encouraging his son. There is no reason for him to hold on

The only time Goku says '' not yet '' is when he is attacked by a series of blows by Gohan and is thrown away. His son had even asked him to go with everything yet.
When he told Goku to go with everything, he threw him up and went towards him, and Goku turned SSB on, did not say anything else.

Goku only used his full power because of Gohan, he spent the entire fight in SSJ2 and did not seem to pretense to use

[incarnati0n]

Gohan already started the fight stating that he was in full power, Goku was just encouraging his son. There is no reason for him to hold on

The only time Goku says '' not yet '' is when he is attacked by a series of blows by Gohan and is thrown away. His son had even asked him to go with everything yet.
When he told Goku to go with everything, he threw him up and went towards him, and Goku turned SSB on, did not say anything else.

Goku only used his full power because of Gohan, he spent the entire fight in SSJ2 and did not seem to pretense to use

So you consider impossible the possibility that maybe Gohan's power increased during the battle and that was the reason why Goku finally gave in to Gohan's request and later went kaioken without Gohan asking him since the last time Gohan urged him to go full power Goku was still in ssj2.

[TAF108]

It seems to be different to Z in that even weaker characters can be valuable just through experience and strategy.

That wasn't really a thing in Z. If their power level wasn't high enough then they may aswell not even be there. I suppose Super does it better because it keeps characters relevant, it's just not to consistent at this point.

The manga power scale is much better for the most part. The only thing I didn't like there was the whole SSJ2 Vegeta Vs SSJ or SSJ2 Black thing but that's about it.

I've always just said Vegeta's SSJ2 form retained it's mutation from the fight with Beerus. That would explain how he could surpass SSJ3 Goku, despite supposedly being Goku's equal. This isn't a confirmed/stated thing, just my rationalization of it. I'd still agree that it's overall more consistent.

As far as strategy mattering, it was important in Dragon Ball. And in early Z (Saiyajin & Freeza arcs) it could be helpful, but power was better over all. Power being most important is still true in Super, it's just that under the tournament rules specifically, power isn't everything.

[BWri]

It seems to be different to Z in that even weaker characters can be valuable just through experience and strategy.

That wasn't really a thing in Z. If their power level wasn't high enough then they may aswell not even be there. I suppose Super does it better because it keeps characters relevant, it's just not to consistent at this point.

That's at least true for these tournament fights with their strict rules and this up-play of the "off-guard" mechanic. There weren't any serious tournaments in Z. Krillin vs Toppo would play out the same way that Krillin vs. Cell did, outside the tournament setting.

[perucho1990]

This is what I see when it comes to the Top 5 of Universes 6 and 7.

Universe 7:
Goku
Vegeta
Gohan
17
Frieza

Universe 6:
Hit
Kale
Caulifla
Cabba
Frost

Oh and current Gohan for now I have him as strong as Post Vegeta training Trunks (Pre Ikari), someone who was close to Blue level..

[ZombieVito]

This is what I see when it comes to the Top 5 of Universes 6 and 7.

Universe 7:
Goku
Vegeta
Gohan
17
Frieza

Universe 6:
Hit
Kale
Caulifla
Cabba
Frost

Oh and current Gohan for now I have him as strong as Post Vegeta training Trunks (Pre Ikari), someone who was close to Blue level..

He was not close at all.

[perucho1990]

Trunks got 1 shotted by Black kamehameha and that was basically the only attack he suffered in episode 57, he was glass-canon before unlocking SSJ Ikari.


And his exchange with Black, Trunks only won because of skill, not because he overpowered him like Gohan did vs Blue Goku after blocking his punch.

[Beyond]

I'm kind of skeptical that 17 is stronger than Frieza. I think the big 4 are Goku,Vegeta,Gohan, and Frieza. I feel 17 is a somewhat distant 5th. They did hype him to hell and back so I guess he really could be all that strong. Who knows maybe 18 is a monster as well? Her and Krillin where about to fight SSB Goku after all.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Gohan already started the fight stating that he was in full power, Goku was just encouraging his son. There is no reason for him to hold on

The only time Goku says '' not yet '' is when he is attacked by a series of blows by Gohan and is thrown away. His son had even asked him to go with everything yet.
When he told Goku to go with everything, he threw him up and went towards him, and Goku turned SSB on, did not say anything else.

Goku only used his full power because of Gohan, he spent the entire fight in SSJ2 and did not seem to pretense to use

So you consider impossible the possibility that maybe Gohan's power increased during the battle and that was the reason why Goku finally gave in to Gohan's request and later went kaioken without Gohan asking him since the last time Gohan urged him to go full power Goku was still in ssj2.

Goku did not 'give in' to Gohan's request.
He activated SSB IMMEDIATELY after Goku told him to use all his power.

Goku did not expect Gohan to be at a satisfactory level for him to use SSB, he used it at the time he asked for it.

If two hits are setting the level of the Gohan, then they can put Goku SSJ2> Gohan
Taking out the defended hits, Goku hit about 12 shots on Gohan Ultimate, while Gohan hit approximately 8.
Goku hit more punches, was he superior?

It has no basis to state that Gohan is SSB level, being that he EQUAL with SSJ2

[TheSaiyanGod]

Trunks got 1 shotted by Black kamehameha and that was basically the only attack he suffered in episode 57, he was glass-canon before unlocking SSJ Ikari.


And his exchange with Black, Trunks only won because of skill, not because he overpowered him like Gohan did vs Blue Goku after blocking his punch.

Oh man ...
Gohan dominated Goku in a 5 second fight? Hit two strokes?
Goku SSJ2 hit 12 shots on Gohan Ultimate, so he dominated Gohan who hit only 8 shots? Is that it?

He in full power rivaled the SSJ2, has nothing to discuss. You do not have to think that 2 strokes would reset your level.

Trunks did not win because of his ability, he hit SAME WAY as Gohan.
How does he level SSB if Vegeta NEVER WANTS to take him to battle? A guy SSB level will stay out of the fight? That does not make any sense.

Trunks increased his power, but he was still just an SSJ2. He hit Black the way that Gohan hit Goku.

I just give up. You see fighting power as something fixed. Goku is on SSB, so he's in full power and so Gohan should not take him away?

Is your opinion, but it is simply irreducible

I quit arguing with you.

[avasatu]

Only things that make sense to me given all the information in the anime:

Goku does not use "god base" anymore. Instead, he gains his god essence while SS1-2 to achieve SSB. SSB may or may not be nerfed.

I put very little critical thought and a lot more intuition into the following power scale (all out):

Goku >= Black > Toppo > Hit >= Vegeta >> Gohan >> 17 > Future Trunks > Future Zamasu > Buu > Piccolo.

[perucho1990]

I dont know why keep downplaying Gohan, he is in the same level as Post Vegeta training Trunks(VJump said Trunks got stronger after training with Vegeta), and Mirai Zamasu(aside from his immortality Goku said that Zamasu was far stronger than Present Zamasu).

Trunks and Mirai Zamasu seemed equal, Trunks only won the sword exchange with Black due to having better sword skill, but during that whole scene Black took no dmg, he only got annoyed at Trunks.

If Gohan wasnt close to Blue level, Gohan wouldve sent his ass on the ground like Vegeta did to Trunks, but Gohan took 1 punch to the face and another he blocked it.

[LowRyder2005]

I dont know why keep downplaying Gohan.

Well, I don't believe they're necessarily downplaying him. The problem is the fight is simply not that clear-cut.
This is part of the reason I feel like people should definitely try to stick to statements for clear confirmations, whenever possible, instead of characters getting a punch or two on someone (i.e. "I don't how if I could have beaten Toppo = Toppo is ~ Goku").

Gohan had apparently shown his "full power" from the start, Goku sensed it and he still wouldn't hit Blue while also managing to hold his own against Gohan in SS2. That's a strong showing for Goku. Many suggests that Gohan was lying and/or not fighting at full power afterwards on the basis that he screamed "this is my full power" again, but seeing that there's not any acknowledgement on anyone's part that Gohan was hitting new heights of power when he was ever-so-briefly skirmishing with Blue Goku (if anything, Piccolo sweating bullets the moment Goku turns Blue is an indicator that some already thought he was outmatched by then) that statement may not be telling us anything new. I mean, it could be Gohan's way to remind his dad (or himself?) that he was going all-out from the start.

Slightly stronger than a SS2 or slightly weaker than SSB Goku are both possibilities here which would need to be corroborated by something else. Taking Toei's way to handle coreographies into account, I have Gohan about as strong as a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Goku from that fight and I certainly don't feel like I'm "downplaying" the feats shown.

P.S. I also don't think that Future Zamasu was technically ever "stated" to be stronger than the present one; at least I don't remember it being brought up in the lenghty and tiresome discussions that took place some pages ago on where he stood in power in the anime.