Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[wolflonnie]

Yes he did. Been there at the comicon (I live in Italy).

[Lord Beerus]

I think I may have been feeding you guys wrong info. Future Trunks doesn't actually give Goku his strength. He just restore Goku's strength to its full potential by healing him. He doesn't actually make him more powerful. Here's what is stated in the chapter:

Vegeta: Wait Trunks, if you can only restore our physical power for one time then do it to Kakarot.
Trunks: Why?
Vegeta: The only one who can fight in SSJB against Zamasu on an equal footing isnt me but Kakarot.

Trunks: Goku's amazing... he can actually fight with Zamasu head on.
Vegeta: Kakarot can control the overflowing power of blue and contain it. (at least something like this, Vegeta's saying the power of Blue overflows and comes out, but Goku can contain it)
Trunks: ?
Vegeta: The weakness of blue where you can only fight to your full potential in a short while.... Kakarot overcame it.
Trunks: Then... right now Goku is?
Vegeta: He's constantly fighting at a 100%... he's perfected Super Saiyan Blue.

So... yeah. Future Trunks didn't technically make Goku any more powerful. He just healed him and it's suddenly revealed Goku mastered Super Saiyan Blue.

Yeah, this is bullshit. At least in the anime Goku overclocked the Kamehameha and has Kaioken too.

It's bollocks. The power-scaling has really off the rails now in the manga. SSJB Goku was weaker than Merged Zamasu in one chapter but in the next chapter is on level pegging because he can now master the form. It's an asspull. And unfortunately a big one.

[Legion]

Is it true that Toyotarou said that Vegetto is stronger than Beerus in the Napoli Comic Con? Or does he only surpass him when he charges the Final Kamehameha?

No. He said what Shin said in the chapter more or less. I saw the video of the comic con

Here:

http://teamsaiyajin.it/dragon-ball-al-n ... -toyotaro/

D: Quale personaggio è più forte tra Beerus e Vegeth Blu?
Come ha detto Kaiohshin dell’ultimo capitolo del manga, può darsi che Vegeth Blu abbia superato il potere di Beerus, ma al momento non si sa se sia vero o no.

Q: Which character is stronger between Beerus and Vegetto Blue?
As Kaiohshin said in the last chapter of the manga, Vegetto Blue might have overcome Beerus's power, but at the moment it is not known whether it is true or not.

[Overlord78]

Yes he did. Been there at the comicon (I live in Italy).

No he didn't. He said he might be stronger than Beerus but didn't give a straight answer.

[TheMikado]

I think I may have been feeding you guys wrong info. Future Trunks doesn't actually give Goku his strength. He just restore Goku's strength to its full potential by healing him. He doesn't actually make him more powerful. Here's what is stated in the chapter:


So... yeah. Future Trunks didn't technically make Goku any more powerful. He just healed him and it's suddenly revealed Goku mastered Super Saiyan Blue.

Yeah, this is bullshit. At least in the anime Goku overclocked the Kamehameha and has Kaioken too.

It's bollocks. The power-scaling has really off the rails now in the manga. SSJB Goku was weaker than Merged Zamasu in one chapter but in the next in on level pegging because he can now master the form. It's an asspull. And unfortunately an big one.

It's the anime equivalent, the difference is that Goku raged power up and the establishment of he equally BS SSB x KK x 10 had the happy effect of making anytime Goku needs to pull an instant BS powerup as dictated by the outline Toei can actually call up the KK for the purpose to make it make more sense.

[Bullza]

So Super Saiyan Blue Goku perfected the form and is constantly fighting at 100. When exactly did he perfect it though?

Since the start? Just recently?

Ok so is that what they getting at in the last chapter? In that Goku uses the mafuba to try and seal Zamasu but failed and he said he'd used up a lot of stamina and couldn't use Blue form. Merged Zamasu shows up though and Goku doesn't have a choice but to use Blue form and when he does Trunks says

"No...Goku doesn't have enough stamina left to stay in Blue form"

That's why he got his ass kicked then. If he hadn't used the mafuba and wasted his energy he'd have been able to hold his own against Merged Zamasu from the start.

So Black really isn't all that impressive at all is he? If Goku had fought him he'd have bashed his skull in. Is be even weaker than Golden Frieza? Maybe on par with Hit?

[wolflonnie]

Is it true that Toyotarou said that Vegetto is stronger than Beerus in the Napoli Comic Con? Or does he only surpass him when he charges the Final Kamehameha?

No. He said what Shin said in the chapter more or less. I saw the video of the comic con

Here:

http://teamsaiyajin.it/dragon-ball-al-n ... -toyotaro/

D: Quale personaggio è più forte tra Beerus e Vegeth Blu?
Come ha detto Kaiohshin dell’ultimo capitolo del manga, può darsi che Vegeth Blu abbia superato il potere di Beerus, ma al momento non si sa se sia vero o no.

Q: Which character is stronger between Beerus and Vegetto Blue?
As Kaiohshin said in the last chapter of the manga, Vegetto Blue might have overcome Beerus's power, but at the moment it is not known whether it is true or not.

Well I took it for a confirmation, like he's slightly above Beerus, just a tiny bit.

[Lord Beerus]

So Super Saiyan Blue Goku perfected the form and is constantly fighting at 100. When exactly did he perfect it though?

Since the start? Just recently?

Ok so is that what they getting at in the last chapter? In that Goku uses the mafuba to try and seal Zamasu but failed and he said he'd used up a lot of stamina and couldn't use Blue form. Merged Zamasu shows up though and Goku doesn't have a choice but to use Blue form and when he does Trunks says

"No...Goku doesn't have enough stamina left to stay in Blue form"

That's why he got his ass kicked then. If he hadn't used the mafuba and wasted his energy he'd have been able to hold his own against Merged Zamasu from the start.

So Black really isn't all that impressive at all is he? If Goku had fought him he'd have bashed his skull in. Is be even weaker than Golden Frieza? Maybe on par with Hit?

Goku Black can't be weaker than Golden Freeza or Hit. SSJ Goku Black, after his initial zenkai, was whopping SSJB Vegeta's ass like nothing. Then he evolves into SSJR from another zenkai and becomes even stronger and mops the floor with SSJB Vegeta. And in Chapter 22, Vegeta was conserving the energy of SSJB by interchanging it with SSJG when he was going to attack SSJR Goku Black. So when Vegeta was a SSJB and was fighting Merged Zamasu, he still had a good amount of energy reserved.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah, this probably broke the scaling from the manga.

Even the anime hasnt done that.

There's no way Goku is stronger than Vegeta.

[TheMikado]

Yeah, this probably broke the scaling from the manga. There's no way Goku is stronger than Vegeta.

Even the anime hasnt done that.

It already did, Goku can get 10x stronger than Vegetas strongest form at will. The kaioken allows them to pull it out when the power scale from the outline gets weird

[Bullza]

Goku Black can't be weaker than Golden Freeza or Hit. SSJ Goku Black, after his initial zenkai, was whopping SSJB Vegeta's ass like nothing. Then he evolves into SSJR from another zenkai and becomes even stronger and mops the floor with SSJB Vegeta. And in Chapter 22, Vegeta was conserving the energy of SSJB by interchanging it with SSJG when he was going to attack SSJR Goku Black. So when Vegeta was a SSJB and was fighting Merged Zamasu, he still had a good amount of energy reserved.

But if Goku at 100% of Blue power is a match for Merged Zamasu then Vegeta should be too correct? Except he just can't maintain that power unlike Goku but both of them at 100% should be much stronger than Black as we saw Vegeta whip Black.

Golden Frieza was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku though.

Hit took a single kick, dodged the Kamehameha and then the fight was over so there's not much to go on with him. I suppose he seemed more hurt by Goku's kick than Black was with Vegeta's kick though.

[Lord Beerus]

Goku Black can't be weaker than Golden Freeza or Hit. SSJ Goku Black, after his initial zenkai, was whopping SSJB Vegeta's ass like nothing. Then he evolves into SSJR from another zenkai and becomes even stronger and mops the floor with SSJB Vegeta. And in Chapter 22, Vegeta was conserving the energy of SSJB by interchanging it with SSJG when he was going to attack SSJR Goku Black. So when Vegeta was a SSJB and was fighting Merged Zamasu, he still had a good amount of energy reserved.

But if Goku at 100% of Blue power is a match for Merged Zamasu then Vegeta should be too correct? Except he just can't maintain that power unlike Goku but both of them at 100% should be much stronger than Black as we saw Vegeta whip Black.

Golden Frieza was stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku though.

Hit took a single kick, dodged the Kamehameha and then the fight was over so there's not much to go on with him. I suppose he seemed more hurt by Goku's kick than Black was with Vegeta's kick though.

It still doesn't add up at all. Because here is how the top tier characters all currently rank in the manga:

SSJB Vegetto > Merged Zamasu = SSJB Goku > Base Vegetto =<>= Merged Zamasu > SSJB Vegeta (Post second ROSAT) > SSJR Goku Black > SSJB Goku > Hit (Full Timeskip) > SSJR Goku Black > SSJ Goku Black (Post Zenkai) > SSJB Vegeta (Pre second ROSAT) > Hit (Full Timeskip) > SSJG Goku/Vegeta > Future Trunks > Zamasu

So... yeah. None of this makes sense.

And for the record, it's not been stated that Goku actually got stronger. It's just stated he can fight at full power for longer periods of time.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, trying to come with an explanation based on the general outline of "a fully-powered Super Saiyan Blue being able to at least hold off the current Merged Zamas" really quick, it could mean that Goku is stronger than Vegeta in the manga and that Zamas is so pitifully weak that fusing with Black barely increased Black's own power. Something like:

Vegito SSB: from 4 to x (?), or you know, comparable to Beerus, however high you want
Goku SSB/ Merged Zamas: around 2, with Zamas being most likely stronger
Vegeta: 2 or 1.75 with the SSG/ SSB thingie, otherwise 0.5 after some time and drastically lowering with every passing second in SSB
Black Rosé: 1
Zamas: really weak, barely adds anything on top of Black's own might

Now, Vegeta (and possibly Goku as well) opted for the Fusion only after being told that the Fusion wasn't permanent anymore so there's really no narrative issue with the "why they still fused". It was the alternative that made more sense anyway for many reasons. And if you re-read chapter 23 you may notice or remember that Goku does want to eat the last Senzu before Vegeta asks him to fuse instead (there's also some off-panel dialogue, to complement).
I guess it also might make sense in some other regard: given that Vegito's plan was to overload Zamas' immortality and it adds credibility to the claim if he's vastly stronger in general. Vegeta was "near his limit" before the ROSAT, so he just trains to find a way to get around his stamina problem. The previous retreat can easily be linked to the sudden necessity of finding a way to nullify Zamas' immortality (Goku getting actually hurt would have probably helped in hindsight, nevertheless).

I still have plenty of trouble wrapping my head with the base "Base/ SS2/ Rosé Black vs. SS2/ Blue Vegeta" shenanigans bar the convenient "Rageta is always on when in SS2" explanation, but this latest chapter doesn't seem that baffling. I mean, it is a curve ball by all means and accounts, especially when you follow the notion that Zamas and Vegito could have been comparable before this revelation, but I don't see many other issues. Are you sure the disbelief is not just because it was kind of "expected" for Merged Zamas to be a force to reckon with like in the anime and not, well, apparently just a "SSB tier guy" whose biggest perk is being immortal? (From an out-of-universe perspective we also know why Toyotaro didn't make Goku fight Black by now: it seems like Blue Goku would have grinded him to dust with little to no effort).

Now, I suppose that the SSB state of affairs may still be a little contrived - apparently, Goku can stay in the form way more efficiently than Vegeta can, but dropping out of the form may still deplete him (i.e. when trying to seal Zamas), but other than that I re-read the chapters 20-23 with the idea that Vegeta was steadily losing stamina with each passing page (Black growing stronger all the while) and honestly part of the fights makes more sense to me now than before.

[spoiler](Narratively, "Trunks was a healer all along" seems just a little too convenient for my tastes on the other hand. I suppose it should go into the manga thread, though...)[/spoiler]

[ShinTenshin]

Goku seems losing at the end of the chapter.
So no he isn't as strong as Merged Zamasu.
It's like in the animé when Goku surpass Zamasu with Kaméhaméha and Kaioken.

And in the Manga we know that Merged Zamasu is far weaker than Vegetto Blue so.....
I really like the work of Toyotaro with power level !

[Basako]

I see the manga power levels like this for now:

Beerus > Vegetto SSB > Merged Zamasu > Black SSR > Goku SSB > Vegeta SSB > Trunks SS2 > Zamasu > Kibito > Shin > Mai

Considering only the strongest form of each one.

[LowRyder2005]

I see the manga power levels like this for now:

Beerus > Vegetto SSB > Merged Zamasu > Black SSR > Goku SSB > Vegeta SSB > Trunks SS2 > Zamasu > Kibito > Shin > Mai

Considering only the strongest form of each one.

More or less, yeah. But Goku and Vegeta at max power could (or quite possibly should) still be stronger than SSR Black and it wouldn't be a deal-breaker for the plot. In short, the revelation (so to speak) is that Black in every form he has appeared in was never a threat for SSB Goku. The immortal (albeit weak) Zamas and the Merged Zamas with the best of both worlds, on the other hand, can only be contained until the fusion wears off.

While he's not exactly laying out a grandiose plot, every element in the outline Toyotaro has devised served at least a basic function (beans being vaporized and Fusion included, since it was their best bet to hold off Zamas until he was either annihilated or defused).

[Bullza]

Looking through the manga I think it goes in this order

1. Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
2. Merged Zamasu
3. Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta
4. Super Saiyan Rose Black
5. Hit
6. SSJG Goku
7. SSJ2 Trunks
8. Zamasu

Goku and Vegeta at 100% of their Blue power are superior to Black with his Rose power. Vegeta even after his trip to the Rosat doesn't seem any stronger than Goku so I just think all he did there was learn the trick to using 100% of his power briefly.

The reason SSJ Black kicked around SSJB Vegeta as he did was most likely because by the time he'd got a zenkai and they stopped to talk and everything, Vegeta lost a huge chunk of his power.

The thing I don't understand is why if Black has Goku's power is he not stronger than he is? He should just be as strong as Goku but he clearly isn't. Also why does his power not drain rapidly in Rose form?

[larzooma]

This is what I see when it comes to the Top 5 of Universes 6 and 7.

Universe 7:
Goku
Vegeta
Gohan
17
Frieza

Universe 6:
Hit
Kale
Caulifla
Cabba
Frost

Oh and current Gohan for now I have him as strong as Post Vegeta training Trunks (Pre Ikari), someone who was close to Blue level..

I really disagree with Freize being placed so high on U7s team. A lot has happen since RoF, and we only saw the lowest level SSJB Goku and Vegeta. Gohan's lowest level Mystic form is well above RoF SSJB, which I argue Piccolo could match enough to initially catch him off guard (severed arm trick), and he was powerful enough to keep up to some extent to maintain hours of training without using a sensu bean (which is shown in 90).

Universe 7:
1. Goku
2. Vegeta
3. Gohan
4. 17
5. Piccolo (I also foresee a more sentimental reason to keep 17 and Piccolo around the same level. Consistently ranked as one of the best fights in DBZ history, and I think the fan base would love to see them go toe to toe again.)

I'm hoping we get a little more information on what Frost has been up to since the tournament, and possibly a hint at a new transformation. If his potential is anything like his U7 counterpart, then he's had a long time to train in hiding. He could be extremely powerful by now. I think he had a good reason to train given the universe was after him as a villian, and he most likely feared Hit was after him on contract. Kale is also an anomaly because we don't know what her form truly means. I'm guessing it will grant her an extreme amount of power, but how close to SSJB level.

Universe 6:
1. Hit (I don't by the venue outside of space and time will limit or nullify his abilities. Hit is over a 1000 years old, and those are most likely his most effective techniques as an assassin. He is extremely powerful in his own right, he learned to increase his ability in a matter of seconds as a counter measure, and he will bring more to the table than almost any other fighter we know. He will be knocking people off with invisible Ki blasts left and right.)
2. Frost (transformation incoming...)
3. Kale
4. Cabba (He's had a good amount of time to master SSJ. He may have even accessed SSJ2.)
5. Caulifla (Greater potential, but less time to discover and master her SSJ form. Plus she seems like a thug, not a dedicated martial artist like Cabba)

[TheMikado]

Maybe because Zamasu has always had control of God ki by default so there's no penalty to SSR power drain.

[Lord Beerus]

Looking through the manga I think it goes in this order

1. Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
2. Merged Zamasu
3. Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta
4. Super Saiyan Rose Black
5. Hit
6. SSJG Goku
7. SSJ2 Trunks
8. Zamasu

Goku and Vegeta at 100% of their Blue power are superior to Black with his Rose power. Vegeta even after his trip to the Rosat doesn't seem any stronger than Goku so I just think all he did there was learn the trick to using 100% of his power briefly.

The reason SSJ Black kicked around SSJB Vegeta as he did was most likely because by the time he'd got a zenkai and they stopped to talk and everything, Vegeta lost a huge chunk of his power.

The thing I don't understand is why if Black has Goku's power is he not stronger than he is? He should just be as strong as Goku but he clearly isn't. Also why does his power not drain rapidly in Rose form?

Nope. That can't work. When SSJB Vegeta was getting mauled by SSJ Goku Black, he ate a senzu to regain his full strength and stamina and SSJ Goku Black (post Zenkai) still kicked his ass. So SSJ Goku (post Zenkai) is definitely much stronger than SSJB Vegeta at full power before he went into the ROSAT and got more pwerful. Hell, Future Trunks even comments that Goku and Vegeta had trained and pushed their bodies to their absolute limits.

And as you said, why isn't SSJR Goku Black as strong as SSJB Goku? Considering that SSJR is the equivalent to SSJB? Shouldn't Goku Black be able to tap into the maximum threshold of power that SSJR can offer much like that Goku is able to do with SSJB?