Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Nope. That can't work. When SSJB Vegeta was getting mauled by SSJ Goku Black, he ate a senzu to regain his full strength and stamina and SSJ Goku Black (post Zenkai) still kicked his ass. So SSJ Goku (post Zenkai) is definitely much stronger than SSJB Vegeta at full power before he went into the ROSAT and got more pwerful. Hell, Future Trunks even comments that Goku and Vegeta had trained and pushed their bodies to their absolute limits.

And as you said, why isn't SSJR Goku Black as strong as SSJB Goku? Considering that SSJR is the equivalent to SSJB? Shouldn't Goku Black be able to tap into the maximum threshold of power that SSJR can offer much like that Goku is able to do with SSJB?

Maybe eating the senzu bean just healed his wounds, it may not restore Godly power if it's just a bean.

Goku and Vegeta were equals at the start of the saga so if Vegeta trained and grew much stronger in the Rosat then he should be a lot stronger than Goku now but he doesn't seem to be and they never actually said that Vegeta had got stronger, the takeaway from his training seemed to be with what he learned by switching between God and Blue.

It doesn't make much sense for this to be true

Merged Zamasu ~ SSJB Goku > SSJR Black > SSJ Black > SSJB Vegeta

Unless Vegeta was supposed to be significantly weaker than Goku which isn't how it's been portrayed from what can I remember.

You said yourself that Goku and Vegeta had trained their bodies to their limit so they shouldn't be able to get too much stronger anyway.

Black was getting zenkai's that were allowing him to bring out more and more of Goku's power over time because he said he didn't have it all available to him at first. It would seem that the final zenkai he got was enough to push him into Rose form but he still didn't have all of Goku's power.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Looking through the manga I think it goes in this order

1. Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
2. Merged Zamasu
3. Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta
4. Super Saiyan Rose Black
5. Hit
6. SSJG Goku
7. SSJ2 Trunks
8. Zamasu

Goku and Vegeta at 100% of their Blue power are superior to Black with his Rose power. Vegeta even after his trip to the Rosat doesn't seem any stronger than Goku so I just think all he did there was learn the trick to using 100% of his power briefly.

The reason SSJ Black kicked around SSJB Vegeta as he did was most likely because by the time he'd got a zenkai and they stopped to talk and everything, Vegeta lost a huge chunk of his power.

The thing I don't understand is why if Black has Goku's power is he not stronger than he is? He should just be as strong as Goku but he clearly isn't. Also why does his power not drain rapidly in Rose form?

Nope. That can't work. When SSJB Vegeta was getting mauled by SSJ Goku Black, he ate a senzu to regain his full strength and stamina and SSJ Goku Black (post Zenkai) still kicked his ass. So SSJ Goku (post Zenkai) is definitely much stronger than SSJB Vegeta at full power before he went into the ROSAT and got more pwerful. Hell, Future Trunks even comments that Goku and Vegeta had trained and pushed their bodies to their absolute limits.

And as you said, why isn't SSJR Goku Black as strong as SSJB Goku? Considering that SSJR is the equivalent to SSJB? Shouldn't Goku Black be able to tap into the maximum threshold of power that SSJR can offer much like that Goku is able to do with SSJB?

Which Zenkai did Goku suffer puts him Vegeta SSB level only with the SSJ transformation?

________

On the levels of powers. I believe that if Trunks heals Vegeta, he could also master the transformation completely, which would leave him and his rival at equal levels.

I think it would look like this.

1-Whis
2-Vegetto
3-Beerus
4-Merged Zamasu
5-Goku SSB / Vegeta SSB (after training in RoSaT)
6-Black SSJ Rosé / Vegeta SSG
7-Black SSJ / Vegeta SSB (before RoSaT) / Goku SSB
8-Mirai Trunks
9-Zamasu

[ZombieVito]

Maybe eating the senzu bean just healed his wounds, it may not restore Godly power if it's just a bean.

Goku and Vegeta were equals at the start of the saga so if Vegeta trained and grew much stronger in the Rosat then he should be a lot stronger than Goku now but he doesn't seem to be and they never actually said that Vegeta had got stronger, the takeaway from his training seemed to be with what he learned by switching between God and Blue.

It doesn't make much sense for this to be true

Merged Zamasu ~ SSJB Goku > SSJR Black > SSJ Black > SSJB Vegeta

Unless Vegeta was supposed to be significantly weaker than Goku which isn't how it's been portrayed from what can I remember.

You said yourself that Goku and Vegeta had trained their bodies to their limit so they shouldn't be able to get too much stronger anyway.

Black was getting zenkai's that were allowing him to bring out more and more of Goku's power over time because he said he didn't have it all available to him at first. It would seem that the final zenkai he got was enough to push him into Rose form but he still didn't have all of Goku's power.

Didn't Black say he did?

Changing gears to the anime. Did Goku kept the power he had when he raged against Black?

[TheSaiyanGod]

Maybe eating the senzu bean just healed his wounds, it may not restore Godly power if it's just a bean.

Goku and Vegeta were equals at the start of the saga so if Vegeta trained and grew much stronger in the Rosat then he should be a lot stronger than Goku now but he doesn't seem to be and they never actually said that Vegeta had got stronger, the takeaway from his training seemed to be with what he learned by switching between God and Blue.

It doesn't make much sense for this to be true

Merged Zamasu ~ SSJB Goku > SSJR Black > SSJ Black > SSJB Vegeta

Unless Vegeta was supposed to be significantly weaker than Goku which isn't how it's been portrayed from what can I remember.

You said yourself that Goku and Vegeta had trained their bodies to their limit so they shouldn't be able to get too much stronger anyway.

Black was getting zenkai's that were allowing him to bring out more and more of Goku's power over time because he said he didn't have it all available to him at first. It would seem that the final zenkai he got was enough to push him into Rose form but he still didn't have all of Goku's power.

Didn't Black say he did?

Changing gears to the anime. Did Goku kept the power he had when he raged against Black?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Well, Black says Goku will "go back" even stronger than before (after the second battle in the future).

Black did not know RoSaT, so I think he was referring to Zenkai

[ZombieVito]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Well, Black says Goku will "go back" even stronger than before (after the second battle in the future).

Black did not know RoSaT, so I think he was referring to Zenkai

They can't get Zenkai's anymore.

[TheSaiyanGod]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Well, Black says Goku will "go back" even stronger than before (after the second battle in the future).

Black did not know RoSaT, so I think he was referring to Zenkai

They can't get Zenkai's anymore.

This was just said in the manga.No anime seems to be different
And yet, Trunks does not speak for sure, he says something like '' probably they can not have more zenkais ''

[ZombieVito]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Well, Black says Goku will "go back" even stronger than before (after the second battle in the future).

Black did not know RoSaT, so I think he was referring to Zenkai

They can't get Zenkai's anymore.

This was just said in the manga.No anime seems to be different
And yet, Trunks does not speak for sure, he says something like '' probably they can not have more zenkais ''

They don't get them anymore. If they did they would have said so between the Android arc and the Boo arc.

Being said in the manga doesn't mean we can't use it in the anime. If it doesn't contradict anything then it's fair game.

[TheSaiyanGod]

They can't get Zenkai's anymore.

This was just said in the manga.No anime seems to be different
And yet, Trunks does not speak for sure, he says something like '' probably they can not have more zenkais ''

They don't get them anymore. If they did they would have said so between the Android arc and the Boo arc.

Being said in the manga doesn't mean we can't use it in the anime. If it doesn't contradict anything then it's fair game.

We should consider SSG for Goku and Vegeta in the manga as well (though I think Vegeta also got the SSG in the anime, and he and Goku can still use it).

In that case, we could not consider what is in the anime what is in the manga.

I do not see any other way Goku gets stronger without being Zenkai, since Black did not know RoSaT

[ZombieVito]

We should consider SSG for Goku and Vegeta in the manga as well (though I think Vegeta also got the SSG in the anime, and he and Goku can still use it).

In that case, we could not consider what is in the anime what is in the manga.

I do not see any other way Goku gets stronger without being Zenkai, since Black did not know RoSaT

No, because that would contradict the anime....

Trunks saying they can't get Zenkai's does not.

[TheSaiyanGod]

We should consider SSG for Goku and Vegeta in the manga as well (though I think Vegeta also got the SSG in the anime, and he and Goku can still use it).

In that case, we could not consider what is in the anime what is in the manga.

I do not see any other way Goku gets stronger without being Zenkai, since Black did not know RoSaT

No, because that would contradict the anime....

Trunks saying they can't get Zenkai's does not.

As I said, the manga and the anime are not necessarily linked. They are different media and it has different tempos. It would be difficult to try to connect and fit the two with so much different thing.

The Black really speaks as if it is a Zenkai, and in the anime it has never been said that they can not have Zenkais anymore

[Bullza]

Blacks power in the manga does confuse me.

He says he didn't immediately get all of Goku's power, that he couldn't even turn Super Saiyan at first and took advantage of zenkai boosts to draw out that body's latent power.

So if he was able to get two zenkai boosts but Goku and Vegeta were said to be unable to because they were at their limit....then shouldn't that mean that Black wasn't at his limit and so should have been weaker?

But at the same time he was obviously much more powerful than Goku in his Base and Super Saiyan forms so why would he get zenkai boosts?

Black then gets the Rose form which is apparently weaker than Goku's Blue form but it also doesn't rapidly lose strength which it should.

[Hugo Boss]

Blacks power in the manga does confuse me.

He says he didn't immediately get all of Goku's power, that he couldn't even turn Super Saiyan at first and took advantage of zenkai boosts to draw out that body's latent power.

So if he was able to get two zenkai boosts but Goku and Vegeta were said to be unable to because they were at their limit....then shouldn't that mean that Black wasn't at his limit and so should have been weaker?

But at the same time he was obviously much more powerful than Goku in his Base and Super Saiyan forms so why would he get zenkai boosts?

Black then gets the Rose form which is apparently weaker than Goku's Blue form but it also doesn't rapidly lose strength which it should.

He probably is a version of Goku who became much stronger than the current manga one, but he can't use the full power of Blue. By fusing with Future Zamas, he can match current Goku's full power and he still has room for improvement. Goku is better with ki control than Zamas and Vegeta, it seems.

[Lord Beerus]

Looking through the manga I think it goes in this order

1. Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
2. Merged Zamasu
3. Super Saiyan Blue Goku / Vegeta
4. Super Saiyan Rose Black
5. Hit
6. SSJG Goku
7. SSJ2 Trunks
8. Zamasu

Goku and Vegeta at 100% of their Blue power are superior to Black with his Rose power. Vegeta even after his trip to the Rosat doesn't seem any stronger than Goku so I just think all he did there was learn the trick to using 100% of his power briefly.

The reason SSJ Black kicked around SSJB Vegeta as he did was most likely because by the time he'd got a zenkai and they stopped to talk and everything, Vegeta lost a huge chunk of his power.

The thing I don't understand is why if Black has Goku's power is he not stronger than he is? He should just be as strong as Goku but he clearly isn't. Also why does his power not drain rapidly in Rose form?

Nope. That can't work. When SSJB Vegeta was getting mauled by SSJ Goku Black, he ate a senzu to regain his full strength and stamina and SSJ Goku Black (post Zenkai) still kicked his ass. So SSJ Goku (post Zenkai) is definitely much stronger than SSJB Vegeta at full power before he went into the ROSAT and got more powerful. Hell, Future Trunks even comments that Goku and Vegeta had trained and pushed their bodies to their absolute limits.

And as you said, why isn't SSJR Goku Black as strong as SSJB Goku? Considering that SSJR is the equivalent to SSJB? Shouldn't Goku Black be able to tap into the maximum threshold of power that SSJR can offer much like that Goku is able to do with SSJB?

Which Zenkai did Goku suffer puts him Vegeta SSB level only with the SSJ transformation?

Remember when SSJ2/SSJB Vegeta kicked his butt in Chapter 19 and Zamasu came in at the last moment to save him and heal him? That was the Zenaki Goku Black got which turned the tide in the battle. Not even full power SSJB Vegeta could do anything as SSJ Goku Black after that Zenkai.

[Lord Beerus]

Chapter 24 has been released in full and 100%/Mastered SSJB Goku is definitely on par with Merged Zamasu. He was not only able to withstand attacks from Merged Zamasu, but is able to kick his ass in equal measure.

Damn.

SSJB Goku at full power is really fucking strong.

Oh. And Base Vegeta and Base Goku were able to withstand vicious beating from Merged Zamasu.

[ZombieVito]

Chapter 24 has been released in full and 100%/Mastered SSJB Goku is definitely on par with Merged Zamasu. He was not only able to withstand attacks from Merged Zamasu, but is able to kick his ass in equal measure.

Damn.

SSJB Goku at full power is really fucking strong.

Oh. And Base Vegeta and Base Goku were able to withstand vicious beating from Merged Zamasu.

Good luck trying to explain that.

I'll stick with the anime for power levels as always.

[Legion]

I'll stick with the anime for power levels as always.

Well power levels between anime and manga are different. Toyotaro is doing whatever he pleases with the story, like Toei.

Anyway i disagree with Goku equal with Zamasu in the manga. Like i said, in the end of the chapter Goku was exhausted, and Zamasu was not so damaged. Goku will lose. And Vegetto is on another level (since someone compared Goku to him).

[Cabba]

So going with what we have now the U7 power scale goes like this
Goku>Vegeta>17=Golden Freeza≥Gohan>Buu>Piccolo>18>Krillin>MutenRoshi>(lol)Tien

Full power Gohan being a little more powerful that SS2 Goku or am i missing something here?
Base Goku is definitely stronger than piccolo without doubt now
I miss the news, is Kale the Brollette? not caulifla?

Sucks to see Cabba got literally not progress since U6 arc, i was hoping he would have gotten stronger. I still am

[Bullza]

It would seem it's pretty similar to the anime after all.

After the last chapter came out I said that the Merged Zamasu in the manga was basically the equivalent of the Merged Zamasu in the anime as he was at first with the Halo and not the powered up light of justice version who could hold his own against Vegito.

Now we've got Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the manga holding his own against Merged Zamasu, kinda like what he did in the anime. Not to the same extent but I can see the similarity so I'd imagine it was in the plot outline.

I'd said for the anime that Super Saiyan Blue Goku (and Vegeta) did surpass Super Saiyan Rose Black and it's definitely true for the manga so differences aside it probably really is true for the anime too.

[Cabba]

They can't get Zenkai's anymore.

This was just said in the manga.No anime seems to be different
And yet, Trunks does not speak for sure, he says something like '' probably they can not have more zenkais ''

I think the main take away from this is not having Zenkai or not but whether Zenkai provided a noticeable improvement. I'm sure they still have it, its in their biology after all. It probably doesnt change anything since the boost they might get is pocket change compared to the power they have now.

Also if the plot wants it, they could make Zenkai great again, never say never in DB its all up to the plot

But at the same time he was obviously much more powerful than Goku in his Base and Super Saiyan forms so why would he get zenkai boosts?
Black then gets the Rose form which is apparently weaker than Goku's Blue form but it also doesn't rapidly lose strength which it should.

I think this part requires thinking outside the box
Vegeta SS2 was initially besting SS2 Black it was only later that SS2 Black started gaining ground
I think SS2 Black in the manga and Base form in the anime were tapping into God powers but not fully reaching/controlling it yet, it would make sense considering Zamasu is a god

And the reason why SSRose is inferior to the completed SSB is just as Vegeta said: Black will never be able to tap into the full potential of Gokus body which has been been built in his fierce history of battles.

He probably is a version of Goku who became much stronger than the current manga one, but he can't use the full power of Blue. By fusing with Future Zamas, he can match current Goku's full power and he still has room for improvement. Goku is better with ki control than Zamas and Vegeta, it seems.

That too, Vegeta did mention Blacks body is from much further in the future

[ZombieVito]

It would seem it's pretty similar to the anime after all.

After the last chapter came out I said that the Merged Zamasu in the manga was basically the equivalent of the Merged Zamasu in the anime as he was at first with the Halo and not the powered up light of justice version who could hold his own against Vegito.

Now we've got Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the manga holding his own against Merged Zamasu, kinda like what he did in the anime. Not to the same extent but I can see the similarity so I'd imagine it was in the plot outline.

I'd said for the anime that Super Saiyan Blue Goku (and Vegeta) did surpass Super Saiyan Rose Black and it's definitely true for the manga so differences aside it probably really is true for the anime too.

But how? Did they get permanent power ups by rage?