Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Simere]

I'd said for the anime that Super Saiyan Blue Goku (and Vegeta) did surpass Super Saiyan Rose Black and it's definitely true for the manga so differences aside it probably really is true for the anime too.

But how? Did they get permanent power ups by rage?

My view was that Goku's boost against Black and Zamasu was indeed permanent, and stronger than Black; it's just that he was caught off guard. Vegeta just closed the gap when he went into the RoSaT.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It would seem it's pretty similar to the anime after all.

After the last chapter came out I said that the Merged Zamasu in the manga was basically the equivalent of the Merged Zamasu in the anime as he was at first with the Halo and not the powered up light of justice version who could hold his own against Vegito.

Now we've got Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the manga holding his own against Merged Zamasu, kinda like what he did in the anime. Not to the same extent but I can see the similarity so I'd imagine it was in the plot outline.

I'd said for the anime that Super Saiyan Blue Goku (and Vegeta) did surpass Super Saiyan Rose Black and it's definitely true for the manga so differences aside it probably really is true for the anime too.

But how? Did they get permanent power ups by rage?

It looks to be that way. With Future Trunks and Vegeta, it's laid out clearly that their rage-based power-ups were permanent things, a new and more powerful god-level SS form for F. Trunks, and months of intense training in the Room of Spirit and Time fueled by anger for Vegeta.

[Bullza]

Well Vegeta obviously trained in the Rosat and got stronger due to a combination of training and anger. He was stronger than Black when he fought him but even after Black powered up and got the Scythe, Vegeta must have still been stronger.

Trunks got a rage boost just before he attacked Merged Zamasu after seeing his father beaten on the ground. This was pointed out by Supreme Kai. I think people may have forgotten about this one.

As for Goku...

My view was that Goku's boost against Black and Zamasu was indeed permanent, and stronger than Black; it's just that he was caught off guard. Vegeta just closed the gap when he went into the RoSaT.

...that's probably what I'd go with as well.

[OLKv3]

Black never mastered his "Blue" form, since we can see his aura. Going by this chapter, if SSB has aura, then ki is leaking. When Goku removes all his aura, he can use it's full power and his power skyrockets

That means that SSB was even worse than SSJ3 in regards to ki consumption. How the HELL did they defeat Golden Freeza with that form in the manga?

[ZombieVito]

Well Vegeta obviously trained in the Rosat and got stronger due to a combination of training and anger. He was stronger than Black when he fought him but even after Black powered up and got the Scythe, Vegeta must have still been stronger.

Trunks got a rage boost just before he attacked Merged Zamasu after seeing his father beaten on the ground. This was pointed out by Supreme Kai. I think people may have forgotten about this one.

As for Goku...

My view was that Goku's boost against Black and Zamasu was indeed permanent, and stronger than Black; it's just that he was caught off guard. Vegeta just closed the gap when he went into the RoSaT.

...that's probably what I'd go with as well.

I doubt it. Gowasu described Black as "the most powerful" in E65.

I still think Vegeta is stronger than Goku by a good margin. It seems Goku didn't get a rage boost after E61.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Black never mastered his "Blue" form, since we can see his aura. Going by this chapter, if SSB has aura, then ki is leaking. When Goku removes all his aura, he can use it's full power and his power skyrockets

That means that SSB was even worse than SSJ3 in regards to ki consumption. How the HELL did they defeat Golden Freeza with that form in the manga?

The biggest energy expenditure of the SSB is the fact that it activates and deactivates more than once in the fight.

But to keep up the transformation, this did not prove to be a problem. We see Vegeta SSB fighting Black SSJ for a long time, without complaining about this energy expenditure (he eats Senzu only later). The SSJ3 really wasted a lot of energy and it could only Be maintained for a short time.

The '' perfect '' SSB would be transformation without the aura, but it does not mean that it can not be mastered in other ways.
Vegeta learned to switch between SSG and SSB without losing power, and apparently made it better to keep SSB.

Black's body is Goku's body 1 year ahead. As he knows the Shunkan Ido and the Kamehameha, this weakness of the SSB could already have been diminished

[Bullza]

I had a look at the scans now they're complete. I haven't seen the manga discussion thread so I don't know if someone has translated it but is it an actual thing that Goku maintains his Super Saiyan Blue power if he keeps its aura contained?

It does look that way at least. It would also seem that Goku hadn't actually done it up until now either.

So is Goku using the Blue form with no aura = Vegeta quickly switching between God and Blue form? That's how they both use 100% of its power?

Goku also is more on par with Merged Zamasu than I thought too. The fusion boost couldn't really have done a whole lot for Black and Zamasu's power from the looks of it.

[OLKv3]

I had a look at the scans now they're complete. I haven't seen the manga discussion thread so I don't know if someone has translated it but is it an actual thing that Goku maintains his Super Saiyan Blue power if he keeps its aura contained?

It does look that way at least. It would also seem that Goku hadn't actually done it up until now either.

So is Goku using the Blue form with no aura = Vegeta quickly switching between God and Blue form? That's how they both use 100% of its power?

Goku also is more on par with Merged Zamasu than I thought too. The fusion boost couldn't really have done a whole lot for Black and Zamasu's power from the looks of it.

Goku using it with no aura is stronger than Vegeta's SSG-SSB technique, it gives him a massive boost. Apparently the ki leakage was insane and nerfed SSB's output pretty hard. This is Goku's first time using it apparently so he's struggling with it

[Hugo Boss]

Black never mastered his "Blue" form, since we can see his aura. Going by this chapter, if SSB has aura, then ki is leaking. When Goku removes all his aura, he can use it's full power and his power skyrockets

That means that SSB was even worse than SSJ3 in regards to ki consumption. How the HELL did they defeat Golden Freeza with that form in the manga?

Perhaps Golden Freeza wasn't all that strong in the manga. He could be slightly stronger than normal Blue and much weaker than mastered Blue.

Changing the topic a bit, seeing as Goku has become very strong in his base form in the anime, could it be that he is becoming as strong as Black? Though Vegeta made a point about Rosé not being as strong as he should be.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Black never mastered his "Blue" form, since we can see his aura. Going by this chapter, if SSB has aura, then ki is leaking. When Goku removes all his aura, he can use it's full power and his power skyrockets

That means that SSB was even worse than SSJ3 in regards to ki consumption. How the HELL did they defeat Golden Freeza with that form in the manga?

Perhaps Golden Freeza wasn't all that strong in the manga. He could be slightly stronger than normal Blue and much weaker than mastered Blue.

Changing the topic a bit, seeing as Goku has become very strong in his base form in the anime, could it be that he is becoming as strong as Black? Though Vegeta made a point about Rosé not being as strong as he should be.

Are you talking about how strong Goku is compared to Black in the anime right now?

I believe he has already surpassed (if that's the question). It's been 1 year since the end of the Black Saga, and Goku continues training, so naturally he got stronger.
From the damage he inflicted on Merged Zamasu (Black's merger with Zamasu) he would also have to say that.

I had a look at the scans now they're complete. I haven't seen the manga discussion thread so I don't know if someone has translated it but is it an actual thing that Goku maintains his Super Saiyan Blue power if he keeps its aura contained?

It does look that way at least. It would also seem that Goku hadn't actually done it up until now either.

So is Goku using the Blue form with no aura = Vegeta quickly switching between God and Blue form? That's how they both use 100% of its power?

Goku also is more on par with Merged Zamasu than I thought too. The fusion boost couldn't really have done a whole lot for Black and Zamasu's power from the looks of it.

Actually, it looks like Goku overcame Vegeta.

Vegeta trained a lot, but only to use the SSB more efficiently and in a way that spends less energy possible. By overcoming the initial weakness of the form (getting 10% power after activating more than once) he was able to switch between Two ways, and managed to optimize the use of SSB to the maximum.

But Goku really seems to have mastered the form by controlling the overflowing Ki of the SSB making him not suffer from energy wear, and seems to have had a Power boost as well.is really the SSB dominated.

I hope that Vegeta can reach too. At least, there is a way he can match Goku in the manga. In the anime it is very difficult for him to learn the Kaioken

[Bullza]

I thought what Vegeta was doing allowed him to attack with the full 100% of Blues power. Isn't that what Goku is doing now? Except he doesn't have to keep swapping forms?

Or is this no aura version of Blue that Goku is using supposed to be even stronger than that 100%?

[ChiefWamsutta]

Ughhhh, this manga is so bad at powerscaling. I stopped reading it awhile ago because of this reason. It is also taking so long to move on from the Goku Black arc.

[MisteryOne]

Ughhhh, this manga is so bad at powerscaling. I stopped reading it awhile ago because of this reason. It is also taking so long to move on from the Goku Black arc.

How is worst at powerscaling than the anime? Apart from SS2 Vegeta vs Black everything makes sense.

[LowRyder2005]

Ughhhh, this manga is so bad at powerscaling. I stopped reading it awhile ago because of this reason. It is also taking so long to move on from the Goku Black arc.

How is worst at powerscaling than the anime? Apart from SS2 Vegeta vs Black everything makes sense.

Eh, personally, I think even that is basically nothing compared to the whole Gohan/Gotenks/Base Goku situation in the anime.

[Hugo Boss]

Black never mastered his "Blue" form, since we can see his aura. Going by this chapter, if SSB has aura, then ki is leaking. When Goku removes all his aura, he can use it's full power and his power skyrockets

That means that SSB was even worse than SSJ3 in regards to ki consumption. How the HELL did they defeat Golden Freeza with that form in the manga?

Perhaps Golden Freeza wasn't all that strong in the manga. He could be slightly stronger than normal Blue and much weaker than mastered Blue.

Changing the topic a bit, seeing as Goku has become very strong in his base form in the anime, could it be that he is becoming as strong as Black? Though Vegeta made a point about Rosé not being as strong as he should be.

Are you talking about how strong Goku is compared to Black in the anime right now?

I believe he has already surpassed (if that's the question). It's been 1 year since the end of the Black Saga, and Goku continues training, so naturally he got stronger.
From the damage he inflicted on Merged Zamasu (Black's merger with Zamasu) he would also have to say that.

Yes. Not only in their strongest forms, but in his base form too. My theory is that the Goku we are going to see in the ToP is what Black would have become if he had access to nearly all Goku's power, excluding Blue kaioken.

[Lord Beerus]

Ughhhh, this manga is so bad at powerscaling. I stopped reading it awhile ago because of this reason. It is also taking so long to move on from the Goku Black arc.

How is worst at powerscaling than the anime? Apart from SS2 Vegeta vs Black everything makes sense.

The power-scaling in the manga actually falls apart because of that fight. SSJ2 Vegeta has no right being stronger than SSJ Goku Black. Hell, he had no right being stronger than Base Goku Black.

[TheMikado]

Ughhhh, this manga is so bad at powerscaling. I stopped reading it awhile ago because of this reason. It is also taking so long to move on from the Goku Black arc.

How is worst at powerscaling than the anime? Apart from SS2 Vegeta vs Black everything makes sense.

Eh, personally, I think even that is basically nothing compared to the whole Gohan/Gotenks/Base Goku situation in the anime.

I agree, that fight and the honestly a lot of the Future Trunks arc has been complete nonsense. Its horrible, but I think the constant "holding back" theme in the anime is way worse because it happens all the time and throughout this arc as well. This was basically a couple of fights, and isolated to one arc so far so I'm less annoyed by it. Still terrible, but not consistently and annoyingly so.

[Cabba]

Ughhhh, this manga is so bad at powerscaling. I stopped reading it awhile ago because of this reason. It is also taking so long to move on from the Goku Black arc.

Actually i think the manga does a much better job at handling scaling and continuity. Its leagues ahead the anime
I dont understand why people complain about the manga. its been done beautifully like a real work of art

Only reason people complain is because it differs from the anime script, just because its different than whatever Toei came up with does not mean its bad or worse

How is worst at powerscaling than the anime? Apart from SS2 Vegeta vs Black everything makes sense.

Why wouldn't it make sense? Vegeta was much stronger than a regular old SS2 so it makes perfect sense he was stronger than trunks in this form. Trunks was already near "old" SS3 on his SS2 form
The only thing that didnt make sense was them pointlessly bringing back SS3 as fan service

edit: Actually come to think of it, i think the reason why they brought SS3 is to give us an idea of Trunks and Black power

The power-scaling in the manga actually falls apart because of that fight. SSJ2 Vegeta has no right being stronger than SSJ Goku Black. Hell, he had no right being stronger than Base Goku Black.

Why not, its been explained reasonably so

[Lord Beerus]

The power-scaling in the manga actually falls apart because of that fight. SSJ2 Vegeta has no right being stronger than SSJ Goku Black. Hell, he had no right being stronger than Base Goku Black.

Why not, its been explained reasonably so

No, it hasn't. And before you say, "He kept his rage boost", no, he didn't. That's never implied or hinted at all before he used the form to fight SSJ Goku Black. That's a theory. Much like Goku and Vegeta having two base forms.

[Cabba]

The power-scaling in the manga actually falls apart because of that fight. SSJ2 Vegeta has no right being stronger than SSJ Goku Black. Hell, he had no right being stronger than Base Goku Black.

Why not, its been explained reasonably so

No, it hasn't. And before you say, "He kept his rage boost", no, he didn't. That's never implied or hinted at all before he used the form to fight SSJ Goku Black. That's a theory. Much like Goku and Vegeta having two base forms.

What rage boost? what two bases? lol no
I'm talking about Whiss training here, claiming they retained Buu saga powers in all forms bar SSB it was always silly from the Get got
Goku and Vegeta got noticeable stronger in base form and consequently SSJ forms. Same reason why Base/SS2 goku was able to keep up with Mystic Gohan in the anime

Trunks was already SS3 level while on SS2, this was stated
The only thing they didn't show was Goku going full power SS2, something which trunks did: He fought as "regular" SS2 first and then showed his full powered SS2 form. Goku used the old SS3 form in part as fan service and to test Trunks
Yes goku and Vegeta have the same full power SS2, its just Goku didnt use it against trunks

If anything what muddles the waters is them bringing back SS3 not Vegeta fighting as SS2