Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
I'm perfectly fine knowing there are characters stronger than Goku outside of the DB Universe. In fact, there are a dozen characters stronger than him, Superman is not alone here.
And think of it this way, Goku can still beat most versions of Superman, just not the Crisis Superman. I usually rationalize Goku this way. Saiyan Saga Kaioken Goku can smash all of the "Movie" versions of Superman into the ground, even Man of Steel.
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21st WMAT Great Ape Goku VS. Raditz
"Lord Beers, what are those?? Do they taste like root beer?" ~ Goku
Eternal Super Saiyan wrote:I'm perfectly fine knowing there are characters stronger than Goku outside of the DB Universe. In fact, there are a dozen characters stronger than him, Superman is not alone here.
And think of it this way, Goku can still beat most versions of Superman, just not the Crisis Superman. I usually rationalize Goku this way. Saiyan Saga Kaioken Goku can smash all of the "Movie" versions of Superman into the ground.
Superman would just reverse time and kill Goku as a baby.
Or brainwash Goku into surrendering by kissing him.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
Well, I'm no mod, but in my humble opinion, I don't see why VS fights can't be between DB characters and characters from other series. We are still talking about Dragon Ball.
Undesirable off-topic would be fights without any DB character or never ending discussion about characters besides Dragon Ball.
rereboy wrote:Well, I'm no mod, but in my humble opinion, I don't see why VS fights can't be between DB characters and characters from other series. We are still talking about Dragon Ball.
Undesirable off-topic would be fights without any DB character or never ending discussion about characters besides Dragon Ball.
I meant like a DB versus a non-DB character. I just read the first post. If not, that's fine.
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
rereboy wrote:I mentioned both cases. You probably didn't read my post correctly.
Oh. Oops. Completely misread. xD
"Dragon Ball once became a thing of the past to me, but after that, I got angry about the live action movie, re-wrote an entire movie script, and now I'm complaining about the quality of the new TV anime. It seems Dragon Ball has grown on me so much that I can't leave it alone." - Akira Toriyama on Dragon Ball Super
RandomGuy96 wrote:Or brainwash Goku into surrendering by kissing him.
I smell a fanfictioooooooooon!
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
I wasn't really stressing the actual sword part, just the gains he made are implied to be big since Fat Boo >= SSJ 2 Teen Gohan (Zeta) or even SSJ 1 Gohan for some.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:I wasn't really stressing the actual sword part, just the gains he made are implied to be big since Fat Boo >= SSJ 2 Teen Gohan (Zeta) or even SSJ 1 Gohan for some.
Yes, I got that but I still thought it was worth mentioning. Without those gains it wouldn't even be a question because Gohan would even be weaker than he was at the Cell games.
With the gains he probably regained his previous form but that's probably just it. I see no reason to consider those gains very big at all. The only reason why they even wonder about the gains is because the sword is supposed to give a lot of power to the one who wields it, not because Gohan's power changed very significantly. So they wonder if the gains could have been what the sword was supposed to do, but there's no remark that the gains were significantly big.
With the gains he probably regained his previous form but that's probably just it. I see no reason to consider those gains very big at all.
It made him stronger than Goku in the same form judging by how they both handle the sword.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Zeta-Sword SSJ Gohan vs. Full Power Perfect Cell
Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”
It's kinda hard to call. Goku seems to imply Gohan isn't totally screwed right now, but he doesn't support Gohan could win either against Boo. Presumably Fat Boo. Though with that comparison I guess he's thinking full power SSJ2. So really I guess depending on leveling and the unpredictable nature of Boo, it's a hard call. In SSJ2 he'd stomp though without a doubt.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Zeta-Sword SSJ Gohan vs. Full Power Perfect Cell
Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”
It's kinda hard to call. Goku seems to imply Gohan isn't totally screwed right now, but he doesn't support Gohan could win either against Boo. Presumably Fat Boo. Though with that comparison I guess he's thinking full power SSJ2. So really I guess depending on leveling and the unpredictable nature of Boo, it's a hard call. In SSJ2 he'd stomp though without a doubt.
SSJ2FutureGohan wrote:Zeta-Sword SSJ Gohan vs. Full Power Perfect Cell
Chapter: 479 (DBZ 285), P5.2-4
Context: when the Z Sword breaks, after Gohan trained with it for a day
Gohan: “But…thanks to that, my arm strength has increased a lot. That Z Sword was incredibly heavy, after all…Perhaps this was what they meant by me obtaining the greatest power in the world.”
Kaioshin: “I-I get it…If he’s acquired that much power in his regular state, then if he becomes a Super Saiyan it will become an even more substantial power-up…! Ye-yeah! That’s it! That’s definitely the greatest power in the world…!”
Goku: “…But…Is he greater than Majin Boo?...I wonder…”
It's kinda hard to call. Goku seems to imply Gohan isn't totally screwed right now, but he doesn't support Gohan could win either against Boo. Presumably Fat Boo. Though with that comparison I guess he's thinking full power SSJ2. So really I guess depending on leveling and the unpredictable nature of Boo, it's a hard call. In SSJ2 he'd stomp though without a doubt.
SSJ3 you mean right?
No SSJ2. Goku doesn't just outright say if Gohan fought Boo now he'd for sure lose. So he could suggest SSJ2 Z Sword Gohan could possibly beat Fat Boo. His comments to me mean Gohan probably can't, but Goku's wording seems to imply Gohan wouldn't just be dispatched of easily like last time. So SSJ2 Gohan after Z sword training could be pretty strong, but below Fat Boo. Though only if you follow those implications.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
